Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
Wow, another LHS closes down
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 09:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Out of curiosity, beyond giving an order of magnitude range for the kit price, what relevance is the MSRP? If you look around and a kit you want is going for $45 to $60 everywhere, does it matter if the MSRP is $20 or $125?

KL



MSRP has plenty of relevance. The MSRP/List Price is the selling price a manufacturer recommends for a particular item. If the actual MSRP for a particular kit is $125 and is going for $45-$60, you're getting a good deal. If, on the other hand, the actual MSRP is $20 and is going for $45-$60, you're getting hosed.

The problem I have when a retailer displays a MSRP in conjunction with an advertised sale is that there is no way of knowing whether the retailer is, in fact, displaying the manufacturer's actual MSRP; or, he's just throwing up a Bravo Sierra number to make the sale price look better than it actually is. Sale price is the markup between MSRP and the wholesale price the retailer pays. If the sale price is 5-10% off the MSRP, it's not a bargain; but, it's something. If it's 25-30% off MSRP, now you're talking good deal. If one bothers to check what a manufacturer ("A") actually lists as a MSRP for said item as opposed to what the retailer ("B") claims it is, that helps in determining whether the retailer is dealing from the top of the deck or is simply attempting to gouge you. If "B" is higher than "A", you're getting the business, not a real deal.



Quoted Text

What's ironic about this argument is that you guys choose to live in one of the most expensive areas of the country, freely paying a premium "to be able to buy a cheeseburger at 3 o'clock in the morning" . . . For $22.50.



The only people stupid enough to fork over 22 bucks for a burger are the same dopes who pay $18 for a locally sourced, organic kale and free range egg sandwich made on a gluten-free, artisanally curated sourdough roll and wash it down with a $10 latte made with fair trade coffee beans individually wrapped in silk and transported by schooner to a dock on the Brooklyn waterfront, then delivered to their final destination by a red bearded-dressed-like-a-19th Century-newspaper-boy-messenger riding a Penny Farthing. The ironic part of this is that these selfsame gourmands aren't native New Yorkers. They are transplants from those less expensive tract home cul d'sac communities located in flyover states west of Hoboken. They aren't really paying for it themselves, though. Their over-indulgent parents are subsidizing their playcation here. That's why you see them sitting around in faux-hemian establishments blogging away for hours about the wonders of buying "loosies" at the corner bodega from the first to fifteenth of every month. After that, these places are deserted and these frivolous urban explorers are reduced to subsisting on a diet of ramen, Fruit Loops and whatever they get after dumpster diving through restaurant waste containers and trash bags left outside of supermarkets after closing. I have photos of these fiber optic cable-limbed hyenas descending on a pile of trash to prospect for delicacies as soon as the supermarket on my block closes up for the night. Another irony is that more than half live in the same "luxury" apartment building as I do. Their parents foot the rent.



I bemoan the closing of a Polish meat market more than that of a LHS. Real kielbasa doesn't come vac-packed in a supermarket meat section. You can always find a model; but, you can't always find good kielbasa.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 09:53 PM UTC

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The answer is yes, from my experience, awareness of the MSRP is extremely helpful to us buyers if we're looking to saving. Japanese model kits are typically quite convenient in this regard as their MSRP is printed on the box (in Yen of course). It helps you decide if you're getting a big bargain, paying the right price, or being completely ripped off.



That really doesn't make any sense. If you get what you want for an agreeable price you are not being ripped off regardless of the MSRP. Likewise, if a kit costs more than you feel like paying, why would it matter if it was only 10% of the MSRP?

KL
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:10 PM UTC
If you were to pay only 10% of the MSRP, that would be almost like getting the kit for free. Sign me up for ten! Kurt, the MSRP makes a lot of difference in determining if you are getting a deal or ripped off. If the manufacturer lists a MSRP of $79.99 for a particular kit and a retailer lists the same kit with a MSRP of, let's say, $93.99, the retailer is ripping the customer off if he lists a sale price which is, in reality, the actual MSRP. He'd be creating the illusion that you're saving $14 which isn't the case at all. You're paying the full retail price as recommended by the manufacturer. This only applies to online retailers. B & M shops don't usually display MSRP on kits and sundry items. They just slap a price on the item and they expect the customer to accept it.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

MSRP has plenty of relevance. The MSRP/List Price is the selling price a manufacturer recommends for a particular item. If the actual MSRP for a particular kit is $125 and is going for $45-$60, you're getting a good deal. If, on the other hand, the actual MSRP is $20 and is going for $45-$60, you're getting hosed.



I can show you some truly awful kits that regularly sell for well below their MSRP. Does the fact that you are getting a great bargain suddenly make them buildable or accurate? If a kit is priced at twice the MSRP at the few places where you can find it, but well under what you would be willing to pay, do you still consider yourself "hosed"?

I have a hard time surrendering my concept and sense of value to someone else and their arbitrary estimation of price points. If it's worth buying at $X, it's worth buying at $X, regardless of what number got put in a catalog a year ago.


Quoted Text

The problem I have when a retailer displays a MSRP in conjunction with an advertised sale is that there is no way of knowing whether the retailer is, in fact, displaying the manufacturer's actual MSRP; or, he's just throwing up a Bravo Sierra number to make the sale price look better than it actually is.



Again, what difference does it make? It takes on the order of twenty seconds to research the going rate of a kit in the market. If you determine that the price is competitive and agreeable, why does it matter that the theoretical price is $20 lower if no one is selling it for that price?

This whole argument reminds me of two other vignettes. Years ago people would complain when an Ebay seller had a kit at $10 and $20 shipping (with prices declared up front) but had no problem with someone selling it at $32 with free shipping.

The other is an old joke where a wife tells her husband that her new shoes hurt her feet and that she could hardly stand to wear them. He asks what's wrong with them, and she says they are two sizes too small. He asks why didn't she try them on at the store and the wife replies she did, and she could hardly get them on. "Then why on earth did you buy them?!?"

"Because they were on sale!"


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What's ironic about this argument is that you guys choose to live in one of the most expensive areas of the country, freely paying a premium "to be able to buy a cheeseburger at 3 o'clock in the morning" . . . For $22.50.



The only people stupid enough to fork over 22 bucks for a burger . . .



OK then, you pay a premium to live in a place where you can readily photograph people rummaging through dumpsters for food. Sounds great.

KL
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 11:04 PM UTC
If there is a truly awful kit selling well below it's MSRP, it's because it is a truly awful kit and the retailer is trying to get rid of it. That doesn't mean someone will snap it up. It's still a truly awful kit regardless of price and not worth buying in the first place. If the kit (good, buildable) is new to the market/in production, there is no logical reason in paying twice what the manufacturer says its worth. Why on earth would anyone pay twice the full retail price for anything? Even paying 1 1/2 times the MSRP shows a complete lack of shopping savvy. Only suckers pay twice as much for something which can be gotten for a lot less. Would you be willing to pay twice the MSRP for a car you're interested in just because you really want one? How about 1 1/2 times the MSRP? Since this thread is about LHS closings, not e-shops and such, let me stop digressing. The fact is, these closings are pretty much self-inflicted. The prices are a turn-off to more than a few customers. That is evident in the lack of business which causes the stores to close. If people feel that they are doing their part in supporting a local store by paying higher prices, good for them. I suppose they would willingly pay higher taxes because it's the "patriotic" thing to do. Like I wrote earlier, neither merchant nor customer owe anything to each other. If I lost my job, the guy running the LHS isn't going to give me any breaks just because he has a sense of loyalty to my past patronage of his establishment. "Lost your job? Gee, that's too bad. Sorry to hear that. Come back when you have some money." Then again, buying models wouldn't be a priority if I was out of work.

CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 11:20 PM UTC
Why is it that whenever I come across a thread that is getting out of hand F. W. Sauerteig is in amongst it somewhere. I do not know why you are angry with the world, but I am getting fed up of coming across you stirring up problems and making them heated, your behaviour is bordering on being trollish. Yes I am aware that others have been stirred up and so have posted in a less than helpful way, but this is a hobby and this is not a subject where anyone needs to be aggressive with anyone else.

Knock it off.
TopSmith
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 12:42 AM UTC
Gentlemen...The original thread was the sad loss of a local store.
Some might point out that through carefull online sluthing, better prices can be had.
However you are killing the hobby... slowly.
If clever use of the internet is where we, as a hobby, are headed, then the exposure to kit building needed for this hobby to continue will be lost and with it the next generation of modelers.
I race slotcars and people get mad at the owner and tell each other that they should stop going to his track. That will really show him! Go ahead, you have $2000 tied up in materials and you close him down and then...sell your stuff because there is no where else to race. Keeping him open keeps you racing.
If new people can't look at kits and materials in a store to increase their interest then as we retire/quit there will not be people to replace us. It not a "I don't like my local store because he is a jerk" issue, it is a national issue. Keeping the well stocked LHS open in communities keeps new pople entering the hobby.
Who among us did not start at the LHS?
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 12:44 AM UTC
With all due respect for the opinions and feelings of the others involved with this thread, and heeding Darren's warnings, this will be my last post in this thread although I had wanted to post once before but felt it pointless to further beat a dead horse with a bat that then gets twisted. I am not addressing any one person but just as a general blanket statement.

I will say that some people's 'emotional attachment' to the subject at hand (for lack of a better phrase), lack of awareness and high emotional angst apparent in the posts is also outmatched only by the ignorance and intolerance of different opinions shown. I will go further and say that, believe it or not, almost everything posted here in this entire thread is an OPINION and thus can not be subject to being judged right or wrong. I have realized that there is one thing I do agree with F.W. on... That I will not shop at a store that overprices everything by a very large margin, which, need I remind the thread, is NOT all of them... Other than that...

If I may make a suggestion to Darren, I would suggest closing this thread at a time of his choosing. I would also suggest, seeing as how these "XYZ Store closing" threads seem to generate the same kind of "devolved discussion" as present in this thread, limiting these specific thread topics. I hate the regulation of what people can/can not talk about but it seems as though these specific threads, among few others, generate this type of "discussion." I believe that at least a few of us can view this kind of discussion as some sort of detrimental, yes?

I would also request that viewers of this post not respond to it in anyway in hopes of keeping the thread from becoming further heated. Respond to it in your mind but keep that response to yourself or, if you are so inclined, send me a message but don't respond in the thread.
JimmyTheFish
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 12:56 AM UTC
I always considered it the experience, not just the purchase. With apologies to James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams:

“Ray. People will come, Ray. They'll come to the hobby shop for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you look around", you'll say, "It's only $20 the new Easy Eight Sherman". They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk down the aisles; marvel at the kit boxes on a perfect afternoon. They'll find the Airfix Lancaster, the Lindberg Bismarck or the Tamiya Sturmgeschütz they built when they were children and cheered as the firecrackers blew up their model. And they'll look at Rommel’s Rod and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been the hobby shop. The world has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But the hobby shop has marked the time. This store, these kits: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.”
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 02:15 AM UTC
In Salisbury there are currently two model shops, they are a mix of trains, plastic kits, slot cars and other bits and bobs. I shop in these stores on a fairly regular basis, the prices are not always the best however they are at a price that when postage is factored in the prices are comparable to online stores in the EU and the UK. I do not for one minute suggest that some products could not be had cheaper via a Chinese online outlet, but you have to consider the tax man who will sting you for items coming in from outside of the EU. And Remember the tax man also hits you for import duty on postage charges and you will also need to factor in how much the Royal Mail charge for picking the kit up you. I accept this will vary from country to country.

I do use a mix of Bricks and Mortar and online, but I do not purchase from the USA as postal charges have killed that trade. China is a possibility for purchases, but I prefer not to get unexpected bills from the tax man; The wife would kill me.

What does the model store offer me that the internet does not?
It provides me with human interaction where I can chew the fat (Talk) while I look at what is available.
It gives me somewhere I can walk in buy what I want and have it to hand.
I like to look at kits before I purchase and that is not always possible in an online environment.

What do the Online outlets offer?
Usually there is a much wider choice.
Prices can be cheaper depending on postage and where it is coming from.

I do feel that bricks and mortar stores attract youngsters to the hobby more than online outlets. My reason is that there is a big difference between looking at an image and having an item in your hand. As such I do feel they have a place in the hobby and a big part to play in keeping the hobby alive and attracting new blood.

I will also point out that one of the shops in Salisbury takes models, paints and glue to local youth groups and gives up his time to encourage their interest in this hobby.

I do feel there is a place for the online outlet, but there is also a place for the model shop and the loss of either is bad for us all.
thathaway3
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 03:30 AM UTC

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He had one in Sterling Heights or Warren and the other was in Inkster (I think). Both were called "Old Guard Hobbies." He was also partners with Walt Lezenski at one time and they owned "Walt's" in Dearborn for many years.

Walt, BTW, ran some of the "Squadron Shops" in Detroit and Chicago, along with being part of the staff at MMD in Texas. Walt died of pneumonia suddenly several years ago while living in Michigan.

Incidentally, both Walt and Al said to their dying days that the Squadron Shops could have been very successful if managed properly. The owner of MMD at the time, Jerry Campbell, just got tied of the management drama.

Pat
MMiR



I remember all of those places. While I never went to the Old Guard one the East Side (Sterling Heights or Warren) I was a frequent visitor to the Old Guard on the West Side. There were actually two different locations, both on Ford Road, the first was in Inkster, and later the store moved a couple of miles into Garden City or Westland.

I also used to visit the old B&M Squadron Shop on John R which was either in Madison Heights or Hazel Park.

And I'd completely forgotten about Walt's. If I remember correctly, that was on Michigan Avenue in Dearborn, and was quite convenient for lunch time visits since I worked at the Ford Research Center in Dearborn.
iowabrit
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 03:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I always considered it the experience, not just the purchase. With apologies to James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams:

“Ray. People will come, Ray. They'll come to the hobby shop for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. "Of course, we won't mind if you look around", you'll say, "It's only $20 the new Easy Eight Sherman". They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk down the aisles; marvel at the kit boxes on a perfect afternoon. They'll find the Airfix Lancaster, the Lindberg Bismarck or the Tamiya Sturmgeschütz they built when they were children and cheered as the firecrackers blew up their model. And they'll look at Rommel’s Rod and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been the hobby shop. The world has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But the hobby shop has marked the time. This store, these kits: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.”



I love that movie...(not just because I live 1/2 hour from the Field itself)
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 03:52 AM UTC
Darren,
Well said. I entered this discussion with an offer to help Top Smith because he lives close to me, and there are still several LHS open within an hour drive in our area. The LHS can offer many things online services can't-- In the Seattle area the local IPMS chapter has almost quarterly public meetings and are hosted by several local hobby shops. The 'make and take' program is featured widely every year. The Seattle Museum of Flight offers space for these activities, and literally thousands of children and their parents have been offered the opportunity to build models on the spot provided by the LHS and Testors Corp at no cost. Several of our LHS offer clinics and provide endless hours of free advice or "how to's. They also serve as a gathering place for local modelers to exchange ideas. We keep saying it's cheaper to go on line which often is true, but we should also remember that on-line stores work much the same way as the LHS-- they are in it for a profit. One last anecdote for folks to dwell on-- while I worked at our LHS, we maintained a robust world wide on-line presence to supplement our sales. We had many orders from China and Eastern Europe where the bulk of models are manufactured today-- it was amusing to find that several large manufacturers tie up most of the stock for on-line sales at large profits, and model builders were willing to pay US LHS prices to get models they couldn't in their own country.
Very Respectfully, Russ
staff_Jim
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 04:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Throw in some of the sterling personalities I have encountered (this one fellow off of Rio Road in Charlottesville was another beauty)



OMG... I use to shop there. The guy was not exactly Mr. Personality for sure, but ironically that store is somewhat responsible for this site. If I hadn't have run across that store in 1996 or so I might have not been even thinking about scale models as a potential site to create in 2001. So...

Cheers,
Jim

PS: I can't remember the name of that store (I called it Hobby Caboose but that was the store in Tallahassee, FL I use to go to).
pcavender
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 05:41 AM UTC
I agree with everything Keith has said.

Who wants to shop on-line for everything. Yes sometimes it might be cheaper but, who gives FREE SHIPPING. Maybe on a $100 purchase when maybe all you need is one or two bottles of paints. I do my research when I make purchases. I know exactly what I need. I make a list and get on-line to get a price + shipping. I go to my local Hobby Town and make the purchase. Even with paying local sales tax I always pay less locally. And you know what, I don't have to wait 5-7 days. Yes I could buy in advance of need. But who does that. Who wants to stock up on items sitting on shelves and not being used. Retailers certainly don't. If they don't turn an item, they don't make money.

Another thought. Does everyone remember a TV show called "Cheers". Remember when Norm would come into the bar and everyone in the bar would yell out "Norm". Well that is just exactly how I am treated when I go into Hobby Town. Yes this does make me feel good. Everyone wants to be welcomed unlike some of the big box stores. I just started back into the hobby last year being away since I was 10 years old. I am now 67 years old. If it weren't for my local hobby store I would not know about AMPS or IPMS or even how this hobby has progressed in the past 57 years.

Big box stores treat you just like I was treated today. Unfortunately I don't like to shop at this particular big box store but, my wife needed a particular item that no one else carried. I looked and looked, walking up and down the aisles. 4-5 sales associates walked right by me and didn't even ask if I needed help. Yes I did complain to management but, it never does any good.

Yes and another thing. If you want something ordered my local hobby store orders it for me and in about 2-3 days I have it.

We cannot let the local hobby stores go out of business. Guess what, don't you think if there were no local hobby stores the on-line stores would raise their prices. Supply and demand. Even I know that from Junior High School.

So SHAME ON YOU IF YOU DON'T SHOP AT YOUR LOCAL HOBBY STORE.
Where would this hobby be without that local, knowledgeable person.

Sorry, I ranted but, I just wanted to express my appreciation for my local hobby store personnel.

Phil


KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 05:59 AM UTC

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OK then, you pay a premium to live in a place where you can readily photograph people rummaging through dumpsters for food. Sounds great.



Your insolence . . .[/quote]

Sorry Major Hochstetter.


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What bearing does the cost of living in the greater NYC area or many metropolitan areas for that matter have on this topic?



It is ironic that you two Gothamites are willing to pay a premium for something you like but can't appreciate that others may also pay a premium for something they like.



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Also, what part of "my fiancee and I are looking to get out of nyc" in the next year or two do you not understand?



I understood it completely. I was shocked to see claims that such a person exists, but I understood it and took it at face value. What you didn't understand was that my quote at the top of this post was directed at Joe, not you. FYI, when you see someone quoting another post within their message, that means what they've written is in response to the the text they quoted.

KL
joepanzer
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 06:08 AM UTC
Sauerteig vs. Laughlin

NOW it's getting good!
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 06:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If the kit (good, buildable) is new to the market/in production, there is no logical reason in paying twice what the manufacturer says its worth. Why on earth would anyone pay twice the full retail price for anything?



Because a) it could not be found anywhere for less and b) the price was agreeable to them.



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Even paying 1 1/2 times the MSRP shows a complete lack of shopping savvy. Only suckers pay twice as much for something which can be gotten for a lot less.



Yes, which is why I conditioned my statement: "It takes on the order of twenty seconds to research the going rate of a kit in the market. If you determine that the price is competitive and agreeable . . ."


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Would you be willing to pay twice the MSRP for a car you're interested in just because you really want one?



If the going rate for that car was 2x MSRP, sure.

What you seem to be saying is that even if you could do all the shopping/market research you wanted you would be psychologically unable to buy a kit if the world had never created the MSRP.

If I see a kit that I want at a competitive price and within the range I'm willing to pay, I'll buy it without even looking for the MSRP. I hardly think that makes me a sucker. Giving extra value to something because it's being sold at less than MSRP does, however.




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The fact is, these closings are pretty much self-inflicted.



I'm in general agreement with that. It's a rough business and you need to be exceptional in one or more ways to stand out.


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If people feel that they are doing their part in supporting a local store by paying higher prices, good for them. I suppose they would willingly pay higher taxes because it's the "patriotic" thing to do.



I think a better analogy would be people willing to pay $25 to file their taxes electronically and get confirmation of settlement in ten days rather than mailing them in and waiting three months. The only problem would be if you told them they were suckers for doing that, or if they said you were an idiot for not.

KL



KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 06:40 AM UTC

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Sauerteig vs. Laughlin



I think you got one of those names wrong . . .

KL