Okay, so I'm kicking back with a brewski, masochistically watching that awful History Channel again, what promised to be an interesting documentary called 'Weird Weapons' which puported to profile all the odd fighting systems developed in WW2...
So far, so good...
And then we come to amphibious tank development.
Apparently - and this is about where I threw the remote at the teevy and the cat through the window - the DD tank was developed by (drum roll) the Americans and tested at the Aberdenn proving ground and was exclusively fitted to M4 Shermans...
I guess the facts must have been a little inconvenient and probably unplalatable for the History Channel's audience of no-neck knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers.
To put the record straight - and as any fule kno - the DD system was developed by Major General Percy Hobart (a Brit), based on work done by Nicholas Straussler...
Cripes, it's easy enough to find this out on Wikipedia, which seems to be today's favoured undergraduate research tool.
I've had enough - I think it's time to polish up my CV and apply for a job at the History Channel as a Fact Checker.
Either that, or a job as a Lie Inserter - did you know New Zealand was the first country to put a man on the moon in 1932..?
acav out
History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Filthy lies again!
acav
Member Since: May 09, 2002
entire network: 517 Posts
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Posted: Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:26 PM UTC
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 12:01 AM UTC
Yea, and according to our favorite retired gunny sergeant turned actor playing gunny sergeants and running a write in show on the History Channel , the Consolidated PB4-Y was so designated because it had four engines. Does that mean the PB-Y was a glider and the F4-U was a four engine fighter? 
Mars_Volta
Member Since: March 28, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 12:38 AM UTC
Sorry to tell you ACAV but that's television. It starts with half truth and ends with half truth. It's a free entertainement device with no real value. When it comes to History they can tell you the Panther was introduced in 1942 and was armed with an 88mm gun or that WW2 began in 1939, then nothing happened during almost 5 years until D-day...
We react when they come to talk about something we know well, but I'm sure that rest of the time they put a lot of crap on every subjects on the airs. Don't know why they can't do it right, but for sure they can't.
We react when they come to talk about something we know well, but I'm sure that rest of the time they put a lot of crap on every subjects on the airs. Don't know why they can't do it right, but for sure they can't.
acav
Member Since: May 09, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 01:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry to tell you ACAV but that's television. It starts with half truth and ends with half truth. It's a free entertainement device with no real value. When it comes to History they can tell you the Panther was introduced in 1942 and was armed with an 88mm gun or that WW2 began in 1939, then nothing happened during almost 5 years until D-day...
We react when they come to talk about something we know well, but I'm sure that rest of the time they put a lot of crap on every subjects on the airs. Don't know why they can't do it right, but for sure they can't.
Well, precisely my point - I think...
If we are to take an interest in 'history', then surely it should be as fully researched as possible - and if a major broadcaster decides to create a 'history' channel for those with an interest in the subject, we should expect this channel to be held to certain standards of accuracy and historical veracity, not mere verisimilitude.
Ghod knows, we have enough information at our fingertips nowadays - it simply astounds me that highly paid and expensivelty 'educated' researchers should so often get things so plainly and maddeningly wrong.
Simply taking two recent examples that I've noticed (the Sherman 'documentary' I've discussed earlier and this latest booboo), one wonders how often the 'facts' have been obscured, misrepresented or just plain ignored in other programmes that the so-called History Channel (and the like - I now tar Discovery, National Geographic and all of that ilk with the same brush unfortunately, and will watch with some skepticism, if at all...) has broadcast.
Frankly, I don't really see why I should care that 'they' get it so wrong, but I do - because there are viewers of these programmes who do not know the little I do about these subjects and who will believe and repeat what they see in these broadcasts as the truth, because it was 'on tv'...
Me, I think I'll buy some books instead.
And use that spare couch potato time for sticking plastic to plastic...
acav out
Bigskip
Member Since: June 27, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 02:21 AM UTC
Maybe it's because the yanks don't have any history that they think they can take other peoples and use it as if it is their own.
Love the history channel myself, spurs me on to find out the truth!!
Andy
jowady
Member Since: June 12, 2006
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entire network: 1,027 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe it's because the yanks don't have any history that they think they can take other peoples and use it as if it is their own.
Andy
Of course, there was the episode that claimed that Monty was first across the Rhine!
John
markm
Member Since: September 11, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:13 AM UTC
Everytime I watch the history chanel my wife has to come in and tell me to quit yelling at the damn tv (cause it cant hear me). :-)
wbill76
Member Since: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:14 AM UTC
History Channel is owned by Disney, explaining a lot IMHO all by itself. Many of the programs are syndicated stuff that they pick up in the usual distribution channels...and many shows/documentaries/series fail the 100% accuracy test because, truthfully, 99% of the viewing public doesn't know or care about the inaccuracies that they perpetuate. I always get a kick out of seeing the "stock" combat footage used in many of the programs...the best one being a "Saver Our History" program about B-25 bombers that showed B-24s and B-17s in combat footage while talking about the versatility and uses of the B-25 in different theaters. :-) 
jowady
Member Since: June 12, 2006
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entire network: 1,027 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:47 AM UTC
A few of their shows, fo example "The Color of War" are excellent, some are okay, the vast majority are simplistic. The History Channel bills themselves as "The place for history" but when pressed on accuracy, they fall back on "its just entertainment." If you haven't heard or better still read, something before you see it on the history channel, you had better confirm it before you use it.
John
John
TankSGT
Member Since: July 25, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 07:15 AM UTC
With my new digital cable I've just about given up on the history channel for the military channel. I was watching a show on the M1 which followed the Marines in 29 Palms. When they talked to the crews it was good but the historical facts were poor.
Did you know the post WW2 US tanks were all based on the Sherman. All the time I was on M60s I though they descended from the Pershing.
Tom
Did you know the post WW2 US tanks were all based on the Sherman. All the time I was on M60s I though they descended from the Pershing.
Tom
Rockfall
#202
Member Since: December 19, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 08:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Did you know the post WW2 US tanks were all based on the Sherman. All the time I was on M60s I though they descended from the Pershing.
I saw that same program. I also raised my eye brows when I heard that.
Jeff
Drader
Member Since: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 01:47 PM UTC
But who ARE TV researchers really?
I thought that 'researcher' was just a euphemism for 'gofer' and it's an entry level job to be got out of the way as quickly as possible before moving on up the foodchain. As a result, researchers have to go from 0 to 60 in a given subject in as little time as possible without much of a background in how to research, so it's not a surprise that the productsof their work are a little flawed...
My somewhat cynical take seem to be not that wide of the mark when I searched on 'Television researchers' and found stuff like this
Researchers
on the page for 'Starting in film and TV' as you will notice....
David
I thought that 'researcher' was just a euphemism for 'gofer' and it's an entry level job to be got out of the way as quickly as possible before moving on up the foodchain. As a result, researchers have to go from 0 to 60 in a given subject in as little time as possible without much of a background in how to research, so it's not a surprise that the productsof their work are a little flawed...
My somewhat cynical take seem to be not that wide of the mark when I searched on 'Television researchers' and found stuff like this
Researchers
on the page for 'Starting in film and TV' as you will notice....
David
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 01:59 PM UTC
Personally I dislike these channels intensely. History is served up in nice bite-sized chunks and they splice film images together without any relation to their historical accuracy or time-frame.
Basically if it a subject can't be done in 40 minutes they don't do it. The worst kind of vulgar populism...
Basically if it a subject can't be done in 40 minutes they don't do it. The worst kind of vulgar populism...
airraid
Member Since: August 13, 2005
entire network: 277 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 09:56 PM UTC
If they cant` do things right they should pack it in .I mean IL2 sturmovicks in the battle of Britain. Also I`m sure I saw Japanese aircraft being strafed on a German airfield in one so called documentary about the European theatre.Also some of the so called experts talk plain drivel.
Lucky13
Member Since: June 01, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:21 PM UTC
When Are they going to learn? Who knows, maybe the day comes when they have to close the shop because of their inaccuracies, half trues or half lies if you want. Maybe their just too lazy to check that everything is correct and true to the fact. How many times have you watched the attack on Pearl Harbor, with their attacking Avengers and Dauntlesses etc?
Why don't they employ people who's actually interested in, and love to work with history? Like the show "Ten Greatest Tanks", where was the Tiger, Challenger and Challenger II? Or in the "Ten Greatest Fighters", what was the F-117 doing in that show? It doesn't have any guns or carry any missiles. To me that's NOT a fighter, is it?
Should maybe send them an email and ask them what the their doing, eh? Maybe we can donate a book or two for them to so at least they'll get ONE or TWO things straight.... 
As for who's doing their research......
But that's just my wee idea of who it is.....
:-)
Why don't they employ people who's actually interested in, and love to work with history? Like the show "Ten Greatest Tanks", where was the Tiger, Challenger and Challenger II? Or in the "Ten Greatest Fighters", what was the F-117 doing in that show? It doesn't have any guns or carry any missiles. To me that's NOT a fighter, is it?
Should maybe send them an email and ask them what the
their doing, eh? Maybe we can donate a book or two for them to so at least they'll get ONE or TWO things straight.... As for who's doing their research......
But that's just my wee idea of who it is.....
:-)
wbill76
Member Since: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:01 AM UTC
Last night while waiting to fall asleep, the History Channel featured a show series titled "Man, Moment, Machine" or M3. It's hosted by a former Navy F-18 fighter pilot named Hunter Ellis.
This particular episode was supposed to be about "Patton, Battle of Bulge, M4 Sherman" as the M3 theme...and of course, when talking about the Bulge, they showed combat tank footage of Pz IIs, Pz 38(ts), Pz IIIs, Pz IVs, etc. all from the Eastern Front in whitewash...that was the usual type thing.
But what really got me going was their use of CGI "tanks" to create scenes...at least in those you'd think they'd be able to get the variants right and not have StuG III-Bs in use in the Ardennes.
This particular episode was supposed to be about "Patton, Battle of Bulge, M4 Sherman" as the M3 theme...and of course, when talking about the Bulge, they showed combat tank footage of Pz IIs, Pz 38(ts), Pz IIIs, Pz IVs, etc. all from the Eastern Front in whitewash...that was the usual type thing.
But what really got me going was their use of CGI "tanks" to create scenes...at least in those you'd think they'd be able to get the variants right and not have StuG III-Bs in use in the Ardennes.
CReading
#001
Member Since: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 06:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Maybe it's because the yanks don't have any history that they think they can take other peoples and use it as if it is their own.
Andy
Of course, there was the episode that claimed that Monty was first across the Rhine!
John
90% of the stuff I see on the History Channel is BBC produced
C.
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Member Since: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 06:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But who ARE TV researchers really?
I thought that 'researcher' was just a euphemism for 'gofer'...
I am not a 'question authority' college-kid pseudo anarchist, but the more time I spent in higher education, the more loathe I have become of 'experts'.
F' example, first see this URL about TV's talking horse Mr. Ed, and THEN go to the hotlink
Quoted Text
at the bottom of the text, and read the content:More information about this page
Mister Ed, the talking equine of television fame, was a horse.
FWIW, I met German Armor researcher Tom Jentz at APG two years ago. He continously refered to our channel in question as The Histrionics Channel!
Bodeen
#026
Member Since: June 08, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 06:46 AM UTC
Yeah...well the Yanks have enough history to know that Australia and New Zealand would be speaking Japanese without us. Your glorious England would be Gau West Anglia without us. In our revolution ,200+ years ago, we were kicking the King of England's butt when the rest of you were kissing it. It's easy nowadays to make fun of Americans...everything else is off limits...politically incorrect...except Americans.Oh yeah...we mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, good for nothiing Yanks had the nerve to create one of history's great societies and Super Powers. Forget the fact that we were involved in two world wars OVERSEAS to try and help YOU!
Are we perfect...absolutely not! Did we make some horrible mistakes as a nation.... Absolutely!
All in all...I'd say between a Revolution, an English invasion, an ill advised Mexican War, Industrial Revolution,Civil War, Gold Rush, Trancontinental Railroad, Indian Wars, Wild West,Spanish American War, Kitty Hawk, WWI, WWII, Korea, The 60's, Vietnam, (DISCO!?)etc., we Americans can honestly say We have a National Identity and a glorious history...except for the Disco..of course!
Go ahead and laugh..and make fun of America's history...because for the last 100 years or so the YANK's history and yours have been intertwined and without the Yank you might not be sitting here ...able to slam me and my country!
$%#^$#%#%!!!!
Boiler
Member Since: June 29, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:30 AM UTC
Well, said my good man! We Yanks have a lot of history. As a matter of fact a pretty good chunk of it consists of kicking British butt. Just ask Generals Burgoyne, Howe, Clinton and Gage to name a few! I bet we'll never see any of that gear and $$ back that we gave the Brits during WWII either will we? I am part English and am a big fan of all things English even though it doesn't sound like it. 
Hollowpoint
Member Since: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBut who ARE TV researchers really?
I thought that 'researcher' was just a euphemism for 'gofer'...
I am not a 'question authority' college-kid pseudo anarchist, but the more time I spent in higher education, the more loathe I have become of 'experts'.
F' example, first see this URL about TV's talking horse Mr. Ed, and THEN go to the hotlinkQuoted Textat the bottom of the text, and read the content:More information about this page
Mister Ed, the talking equine of television fame, was a horse.
FWIW, I met German Armor researcher Tom Jentz at APG two years ago. He continously refered to our channel in question as The Histrionics Channel!
Uh, Fred. That page is an April Fool's joke that they leave up year-round. Here's a few others: http://www.snopes.com/lost/lost.htm#mistered They were placed there just so people could pop off on them without doing any more research or thinking.
Kind of like History Channel or any other documentaries -- they might spur a bit more researching or thinking, but don't take any of them for the gospel truth.
As a person who works in the news business, I know that there are many sides to any story and an individual is only going to tell one side of that story, good, bad or poorly researched.
Almost forgot to add this link: http://www.snopes.com/lost/false.htm It explains the hoax. A link to it is at the bottom of each of those hoax pages, offering more information.
acav
Member Since: May 09, 2002
entire network: 517 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Oh yeah...we mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, good for nothiing Yanks had the nerve to create one of history's great societies and Super Powers. Forget the fact that we were involved in two world wars OVERSEAS to try and help YOU!
Are we perfect...absolutely not! Did we make some horrible mistakes as a nation.... Absolutely!
All in all...I'd say between a Revolution, an English invasion, an ill advised Mexican War, Industrial Revolution,Civil War, Gold Rush, Trancontinental Railroad, Indian Wars, Wild West,Spanish American War, Kitty Hawk, WWI, WWII, Korea, The 60's, Vietnam, (DISCO!?)etc., we Americans can honestly say We have a National Identity and a glorious history...except for the Disco..of course!
Go ahead and laugh..and make fun of America's history...because for the last 100 years or so the YANK's history and yours have been intertwined and without the Yank you might not be sitting here ...able to slam me and my country!
$%#^$#%#%!!!!
Hey, hold up a minute there, Jack - nowhere in my post(s) did I indicate any dislike for your country or it's inhabitants, so I think you're being a tad over-sensitive there.
Please bear in mind that no nation or society has a monopoly on mouth-breathers, knuckle-draggers or bottom-feeders; I lived in London for fifteen years, we've got one or two here in NZ, I've seen 'em at work and at play and it ain't pretty...
My reference to same mouth-breathers etc was merely to indicate my low opinion of anyone of any country who'd sit and soak up all that the glass teat has to offer without question, especially the dross that passes for 'fact' from the Hysterical Channel.
The USA has carved itself a place in world history, certainly, but before we get too agitated about who saved who from what, consider this - we, the descendants of the victors of WW2 (apologies to descendants of those nations which came second...), choose to spend our leisure time building German tanks and aeroplanes from kits made by Japanese companies (okay, maybe not so much now...), most of our appliances are made in Asia for Japanese companies, I bet most of us drive Japanese cars (but wish we had a Porsche or an Audi or a Mercedes Benz...)
My original post merely laments the lack of scholarship in much of what passes for 'documentary' - if those who create these shows for tv cannot get the facts right in subjects we know about, how then can we trust their veracity should we tune in to watch something in the hope of learning something about that which we know little..?
However, I continue to endure the History Channel because it's the only channel which examines subjects I'm interested in - at the behest of my all-knowing financial controller and wife, I now record everything to our DVD HD recorder for editing later; the plan is to cut the shows down and save the newsreel and actuality footage for reference material, the talking heads and undergraduate level narration I'm not interested in...
$0.02
acav out
Bodeen
#026
Member Since: June 08, 2002
entire network: 1,744 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:46 PM UTC
I was referring to Andy's post saying we yanks had no history of our own.'Nuff Said.
Jeff
PS: I drive a South Korean car and I lived in Germany for 12 years and did'nt want an Audi or
Mercedes then (drove a FORD Scorpio) and i don't want a one now! i don't even want a VEE DUB.
Removed by original poster on 10/27/06 - 01:00:11 (GMT).
novembersong
Member Since: July 03, 2006
entire network: 370 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey, hold up a minute there, Jack - nowhere in my post(s) did I indicate any dislike for your country or it's inhabitants, so I think you're being a tad over-sensitive there.
I think he was referring to the incredibly crass comment about how "the yanks" have to steal their culture and history, because we dont have any of our own......*YAAAAWN*........Correct me if I'm wrong Andy, but hasn't your country supported a government/monarchy that has tried for hundreds of years to crush the cultures history and languages of its neighbors -at home and abroad- to assimilate them as their own? So lets not start a dirt clod fight, ok? Everyone here has one thing in common; we all love to build models, and thats what this is right? as model building website?
If you want to start a flame war, go cruise on over to the Yahoo news Site discussion list, those yay-hoos are always looking to insult someone.
I will agree with you though Acav, I watch it because they have a lot of stuff that is of interest to me. If it werent for the History Chanel and the Military chanel, I could do without cable TV altogether. I loathe the TV personally, but the wife and kids like it from time to time, so.... Anyway, IMNSHO, I think the History chanel is flawed, and they should have issued an apology for that grave error.
Can we get back to History and models now?
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