History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Filthy lies again!
SmashedGlass
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Member Since: October 26, 2006
entire network: 105 Posts
KitMaker Network: 14 Posts
Posted: Friday, November 03, 2006 - 02:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Just been watching the History Channel and Kursk. They said that the T-34 was the best designed tank in WWII. What's your opinion?



As I understand it, this was because of the radical design of the sloped hull causing shells to simply bounce off. It sure isn't because of aesthetics!



Hey! That's not nice!!! IMHO, the '34-especially the earlier 76mm gunned models-were pretty slick lookin! Anyhoo, with military hardware it's not about what's prettiest, it's about what's still standing at the end of the batttle.
Lucky13
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 01, 2006
entire network: 1,707 Posts
KitMaker Network: 530 Posts
Posted: Friday, November 03, 2006 - 07:20 PM UTC
I'd like to have military channel.....but I don't think that we get that one here in ol' world.....you're lucky fellas. :-)
Lucky13
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 01, 2006
entire network: 1,707 Posts
KitMaker Network: 530 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:12 PM UTC
Just been watching the History Channel and the De Havilland Mosquito...
I doubt that they ever thought about it (not having the time, other worries and so on), but under different circumstances what a adrenalin rush it must have been to fly those birds at high speed and at tree top level....they showed some footage of it. Wouldn't you like to try? I certainly would....

Fitz
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: July 11, 2006
entire network: 439 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all,
I ditched the cable TV and got satellite a couple of years ago. I found an interesting thing called the Military Channel. I watch it, it is better researched than History. Has great shows, one is on the old Soviet Air Force which gives an unjaundiced view of their aircraft.
History Channel is in my dustbin of what I watch.

Chris




The Military Channel is an offshoot of Discovery Channel and runs a lot of programs that used to get run on that network but got pushed out by motorcycle building shows where the rear fender NEVER seems to fit right. It replaced the "Discover Wings" channel, which was not a great loss since many of those programs can now be found on TheMilChan.

About 90% of the military related stuff on the History Channel is produced by just one production company. Look at the credits. Since this stuff is produced for entertainment, and the producers are I expect, no more than enthusiasts (if that) rather than experts on military hardware, errors do sneak in and often get repeated. Most of the time these mistakes are the types of things that will infuriate the fetishist but most of the audience probably doesn't know the difference, or care. In the great grand scheme of things these errors probably do little if any real harm.

Of course, mistakes about military hardware are not limited to the History Channel. Many books by renowned military authors contain more than enough errors to keep the hardcore enthusiast on edge. I have one of the late Ian Hogg's last books and it is just chock full of errors that are even obvious to a layperson such as myself.
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: December 21, 2002
entire network: 7,772 Posts
KitMaker Network: 802 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 09:38 AM UTC
Hi All,

Though the "Histrionics Channel" has been properly flamed in this post , I must admit I am impressed with their new series Dogfight on Friday nights.

The CGI is incredible. The action enjoyable. Last week's episode about Gen. Robin Olds and his MiG ambush Operation Bolo was very well done (I attended Gen. Old's presentation at the USAF Museum in 1989. The program brought back memories and matches my books on him). I picked out a few nit-picky things but otherwise I'd rate it at 95% for accuracy and content.

The previous week's MiG Alley was also good (I haven't seen the first half yet!)

Give it a watch and if you see anything worth bantering about, here's a thread for it:Dogfight!!
screamingeagle
Visit this Community
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: January 08, 2002
entire network: 1,027 Posts
KitMaker Network: 269 Posts
Posted: Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 01:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Maybe it's because the yanks don't have any history that they think they can take other peoples and use it as if it is their own.



Love the history channel myself, spurs me on to find out the truth!!

Andy




Actually we'll only take it and make it if we earned it ..........
Bailed your butts out of WW2 though ! And Kicked it in the Revolution !

There are some very good and not so good military series that air on the History Channel, ( though I prefer the Military Channel ). One of the Historical professors who is contracted by THC periodically claims that though at time facts and truths that are written/researched into the historical programs are sometime found to be mistakes or falsehoods, they do encourage viewers to email THC with the correct information and also to give their references. The correct refs should be then edited into the program to makes things right.
I'm quite sure they don't put out false refs to be glory seekers, but just a bad case of who did the terrible research for those mistakes in the programs.
There's always another option too .... if you don't like THC then turn the channel.

- ralph
Bigskip
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 27, 2006
entire network: 2,487 Posts
KitMaker Network: 464 Posts
Posted: Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 02:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Actually we'll only take it and make it if we earned it ..........
Bailed your butts out of WW2 though ! And Kicked it in the Revolution !



Ralph

Please read my public apology for this comment - it was meant to be humorous!!

And yes we all know that you guys bailed us out - both financially before joining in and with sacrifice of young men after joining. We were and are on the same side, and long my we be able to call our former colonists friends and Allies.

Peace and Plenty

Andy
Lucky13
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 01, 2006
entire network: 1,707 Posts
KitMaker Network: 530 Posts
Posted: Friday, November 17, 2006 - 05:12 AM UTC
Just watched a program about naval aviation on the box. I have to say that it didn't hit me until after it was finished. It went form the early years-Pearl Harbor-Midway-Korea-Vietnam....see anything that's missing here??
It's not the first time that a program about naval aviation as a whole or about the pacific war that they've left out the Battle of Coral Sea.
Would anyone please explain this to me, is it because lack of photage and so on that it's not even mentioned? The Battle of Coral Sea wasn't that unimportant was it?
Hohenstaufen
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 13, 2004
entire network: 2,192 Posts
KitMaker Network: 386 Posts
Posted: Friday, November 17, 2006 - 03:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And Kicked it in the Revolution !


Yeah, but you were still British then, so it doesn't really count ! (Joke!). On the subject of WW2, we made the final payments on Lend Lease in the 1970's, & you still kept the bases we exchanged for clapped out destroyers (eg Campbeltown), but we don't bear grudges! (Another joke!)

On the subject of the thread, I've got to say that most researchers I expect are doing a job, they don't necessarily have any interest in what they are researching, so they will take the easy way out. There are a lot of people (including here on Armorama) who just hit the Internet first, & don't go any farther. There is an awful lot of rubbish on the Internet, & it can't be trusted without cross referencing. Example - my eldest daughter was researching Joan of Arc, & found a website that said Joan was the first feminist, dressed in mens clothing as a statement etc etc. On the site was a comment from a don in an American university saying please no one delete this site, it is a perfect example of Internet rubbish, & they were using it to illustrate how complete fabrications can become acceptable truths! Nor are published works much better, we are all familiar with the "churning" of regugitated bits of info in a different cover, eg Wehrmacht tank crews or anyone wearing a black uniform captioned as SS.

As far as accusations of the US writing history to suit themselves, I have to say why shouldn't they if no one is prepared to put it right? The US contribution to WW1& WW2 was immense in both men & material, so what if they were a bit "late" in both? There would have been no chance of an Allied victory without them in either war. While I don't believe Britain would have been invaded, I think in time there would have had to have been some sort of settlement with Germany, there was no hope for the British Commonweath & assorted "Free" allies of invaded Europe unaided (cf Dieppe). When my daughter was set an essay based around D Day a year or so ago, the teacher showed them part of SPR. Yes it only shows the American contribution, & the only mention of the UK is in a derogatory aside (which is historically inaccurate), but then I can't think of any British film made in the last 50 years which would have redressed the balance. We as a nation are in grave danger of losing much of our history, which is very much taken for granted. This is, by the way, I suspect deliberate government policy, as a country which doesn't know where it came from is much easier to lead in the direction they want to.
no-neck
Visit this Community
Oregon, United States
Member Since: August 26, 2005
entire network: 87 Posts
KitMaker Network: 67 Posts
Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 06:12 PM UTC
Facinating thread. What was said about THC being a commercial venture is key. Time is money. Research takes time. If misunderstandings like what I've been reading here had occured between the Anglo-American armies how would they have ever won the war? Everyone knows that US means unservicable. The Brits (they like being called Brits right?) treated us like FNG's, which we were. They had age and treachery while we had youth and ability. With experienced tuteledge and our own home grown genius we fought our way to the top of the pack. We ruled. Thats a historical fact.
Bigskip
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 27, 2006
entire network: 2,487 Posts
KitMaker Network: 464 Posts
Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 08:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

They had age and treachery



I'm not sure if i should be offended at that comment.
:-) :-)
Andy
Whiskey6
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Member Since: August 15, 2006
entire network: 408 Posts
KitMaker Network: 179 Posts
Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 09:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I guess the facts must have been a little inconvenient and probably unplalatable for the History Channel's audience of no-neck knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers.



Why you gotta be that way?????

We "no-neck knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers" got feelings too ya know!!

I learned in my youth that if no one was going to die before morning, that the issue probably wasn't worth getting all excited over. Lighten up, man....and change the channel.

Semper Fi,
Whiskey6
no-neck
Visit this Community
Oregon, United States
Member Since: August 26, 2005
entire network: 87 Posts
KitMaker Network: 67 Posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2006 - 03:28 PM UTC
ANDY, I thought age (historical past) is what we were all arguing about.. Maybe I should check the filter in my paint booth. As far as treachery goes, you put together a list of Yank treachery and I'll do a Brit list and when we're done we'll find it has all been superseded by new and improved treachery.
Lucky13
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 01, 2006
entire network: 1,707 Posts
KitMaker Network: 530 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 03:59 AM UTC
Aircraft Stories and Discovery Wings....
Is this the worst so far or am I overreacting???
Have you seen Aircraft Stories on the Discovery Wings?


Talk about:------------------Showing:
Spitfire Mk XIV--------------Hellcat
Spitfire Mk XVI--------------P-40's of different versions
Spitfire Mk XVIII------------P40's of different versions

Fleet Air Arm
Wildcat----------------------P-40's of different versions
Hellcat *---------------------Mustangs (A-36's I think)

* Also calls it a classic fighter bomber. All these film shots is from the desert....

:-) :-) :-)
airwarrior
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Member Since: November 21, 2002
entire network: 2,085 Posts
KitMaker Network: 559 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 08:57 AM UTC
Misinterpreted footage, or just plain wrong footage is common for ***cough*** "history" documentaries ***cough***. I would not at all be surprised to see footage described as 1944 Battle of the Bulge in one episode, and then 1941 Russia in the next. EVEN if it was the same series!



On another topic, does anyone else get tired of the crappy colorizations of B/W footage on one of those MC shows? It is just so poorly done that I think it actually detracts from the footage itself. I think it's called "Fields of Armor"....

+ - = poor documentaries
Lucky13
Visit this Community
Scotland, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 01, 2006
entire network: 1,707 Posts
KitMaker Network: 530 Posts
Posted: Friday, December 01, 2006 - 09:09 AM UTC
I love to read about and watch history from the Greeks to....you know.
People must get fed up with the constant mistakes, errors and even sometimes you wonder if just plain stupidity #:-) in these programs....from Discovery Channel, History Channel etc. :-)
Isn't it we viewers that pay for these channels if viewed on Sky or whatever network you have. And if people get fed up with all this they tend to leave, don't they? The less people that view the less money they'll pull in and in the end they might close down.....
I know if I where a boss (or owned) on one of these I'd make sure that the programs were good, entertaining AND informative. For the looks of it, it seems to be more errors etc regarding WWII programs than anything else.....
That must tonnes of information floating about, not to mention the possibility to the computer graphics to help.

Sorry fellas, just fed up..... :-) :-) :-) :-)
Cavalry
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: October 30, 2006
entire network: 121 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:00 PM UTC
Balance is always the watch word. I am re reading Danny Parker's Battle of the Bulge. In the section on weapons, he states that the M-79 was the only grenade launcher the American possessed during the 1945-45 battle. Obviously incorrect. I attributed it to a printing oversight. just one of those things like telling everyone the finest tank of WW II was the T-34...obviously wrong (right?)
airwarrior
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Member Since: November 21, 2002
entire network: 2,085 Posts
KitMaker Network: 559 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Balance is always the watch word. I am re reading Danny Parker's Battle of the Bulge. In the section on weapons, he states that the M-79 was the only grenade launcher the American possessed during the 1945-45 battle. Obviously incorrect. I attributed it to a printing oversight. just one of those things like telling everyone the finest tank of WW II was the T-34...obviously wrong (right?)




Stating that the M-79 was the only Grenade launcher is more than just a printing error, it is just downright wrong. This guy has failed miserably in his research, and that statement alone brings into question the validity of his entire book!


And the T-34 is the best tank of WWII. It had reliability like the Sherman, Armor with strength aproaching that of the Tiger, and a gun strong enough to beat almost anything.
Bigskip
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: June 27, 2006
entire network: 2,487 Posts
KitMaker Network: 464 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 04:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

ANDY, I thought age (historical past) is what we were all arguing about.. Maybe I should check the filter in my paint booth. As far as treachery goes, you put together a list of Yank treachery and I'll do a Brit list and when we're done we'll find it has all been superseded by new and improved treachery.



Earl


I agree visa vie new and improved treachery. For the record i am very proud to be English, but equally proud to be able to call the Americans our friends and allies. My humour may sometimes come across wrong on the interweb - but i never intend to post anything offensive.


Andy
Drader
Visit this Community
Wales, United Kingdom
Member Since: July 20, 2004
entire network: 3,791 Posts
KitMaker Network: 765 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 03:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Balance is always the watch word. I am re reading Danny Parker's Battle of the Bulge. In the section on weapons, he states that the M-79 was the only grenade launcher the American possessed during the 1945-45 battle. Obviously incorrect. I attributed it to a printing oversight. just one of those things like telling everyone the finest tank of WW II was the T-34...obviously wrong (right?)



Maybe he was thinking of the M7 launcher and the M9 grenade and got his wires crossed. BTW editing things is a nightmare job and after a while your mind goes blank and all sorts of mistakes slip past.

Grenade launchers

with a nice training leaflet for a grenade launcher fitted to the .30 carbine..

David
Cavalry
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: October 30, 2006
entire network: 121 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text



And the T-34 is the best tank of WWII. It had reliability like the Sherman, Armor with strength aproaching that of the Tiger, and a gun strong enough to beat almost anything.



Oh you poor misguided soul. If the T-34/85 was so good how come the M4A3E8 Sherman beat them into metal coffins in Korea? It is not the machine, it is the crew (training and experience) that make the machine work.
LongKnife
Visit this Community
Jönköping, Sweden
Member Since: April 25, 2006
entire network: 831 Posts
KitMaker Network: 19 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:34 PM UTC
I guess in this case we should add numbers to the equation. I have no exact figures in my head, but I guess the T34's of WW2 were in higher numbers compared to the Panzers and Tigers, than they were to the Shermans in Korea.

if you have one tank facing two of the enemies, you will most likely show your position to #2 while firing at #1. In such a case it doesnt matter if your tank is twice as good - you're one short.
Cavalry
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: October 30, 2006
entire network: 121 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I guess in this case we should add numbers to the equation. I have no exact figures in my head, but I guess the T34's of WW2 were in higher numbers compared to the Panzers and Tigers, than they were to the Shermans in Korea.

if you have one tank facing two of the enemies, you will most likely show your position to #2 while firing at #1. In such a case it doesnt matter if your tank is twice as good - you're one short.



Sir I can only refer you to the Michael Wittman example from Normandy...his crew assisted by other destroyed a Canadian tank column--outnumbered by the Allied force, his lads ably handled the superior force. Train them correctly and screw the odds.
LongKnife
Visit this Community
Jönköping, Sweden
Member Since: April 25, 2006
entire network: 831 Posts
KitMaker Network: 19 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 09:13 PM UTC
That, my friend, is true. And I must agree that I will always prefer to have top soldiers with lousy equipment, than the other way around.
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: December 21, 2002
entire network: 7,772 Posts
KitMaker Network: 802 Posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And the T-34 is the best tank of WWII. It had reliability like the Sherman, Armor with strength aproaching that of the Tiger, and a gun strong enough to beat almost anything.



Not really. The first T-34 76mm had slightly less penetrative performance than the Sherman's 75mm. Don't recall if that included T-34's 76.2mm. Their 85mm was slightly below the 88 L/56 of Tiger I. However, IIRC T-34/85 were given an allotment of special (APDS, APBCDS, APHVDS...???? I can't recall all these ABC special rounds) ammo to even the odds. Still, their 85mm could defeat Tiger I's frontal armor with 500m, IIRC. I am going by an old Ian Hogg book.


Quoted Text

Sir I can only refer you to the Michael Wittman example from Normandy...his crew assisted by other destroyed a Canadian tank column--outnumbered by the Allied force, his lads ably handled the superior force. Train them correctly and screw the odds.



The puny 75mm of the RTR tanks were incapable of penetrating Tiger I's frontal armor at all but the closest range. Also, Wittmann caught them at rest, rescanning for their next advance, probably 'brewing up'. He surprised them. In the chaos they couldn't acquire him while all he had to do was move down the line shooting--target-rich environment where anything in front of him was a target (while the Allied force didn't know what was moving through the smoke at them.) Other than some 57mm (6 Pounder) antitank guns, I don't recall reading that the Canadians even got off a shot at him until he was withdrawing through the village.

I just finished [url=http://www.amazon.com[WITTMANN-COMMANDERS-LEIBSTANDARTE-Stackpole-Military/dp/0811733343/sr=8-1/qid=1165764847/ref=sr_1_1/002-0217409-3931242?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url] and there are other fascinating combats during Kursk.