Hello Jim, when I said what I did, I was not trampling on anyone's freedom of speech. I was merely expressing an opinion of my own concerning the portrayal of the military in M*A*S*H. We are drifting off of the topic here, but I felt the need to reply. Al

Not to keep the drift going, but one thing that has changed for the better, is once again I CAN wear my Class As to a bar and get free drinks and the chicks dig it. Viet Nam vets were treated disgracefully in their time and although it took awhile, the country figured it out and is trying to make up for it.

hi all! yep i did sorta wander off topic. i swear i'm that way in person, too. start on one subject and off i go! some people really enjoy talking to me because of it. others pretend they need to be somewhere and need to speak breifly and run.

Al: i wasn't responding to you personally. per se. i've got a bit of a liberal bent because of things i have seen, experienced, lived through and thought about extensively my entire life. i didn't get that way by donning my outlook like a suit of clothing selected from a rack. over the years i have noticed many times that my conservative friends and colleagues in their zeal to show their patriotism say and imply things they believe that would do away with, deny, or limit the very freedoms, rights, and other things that make/made this country great. very few, actually almost not a one, seem to understand that dash of hypocrisy as part of their belief system. to me, everybody means just that -everybody. a right or freedom is either for everybody and is absolute or it isn't a right or a freedom at all. end of rant!

just to make things go back on track, i have watched many films recently that i learned of here in this thread. i saw the Lost Squadron, an old flick about some ex WWI pilots working in Hollywood. that was a tough one to get through, the acting was so hammed up and over the top i almost didn't get through it. I watched the Lost Batallion which was very good for a made for TV movie about the Argonne Forest in WWI. i can't immediately recall the name of it, but another film was a WWII POW movie about the POWs being held by the Japanese building a rail road through the jungle. i believe Keifer Sutherland was in it. it was so-so. i watched the Great Raid and Pearl. i rewatched Tora Tora Tora, the Band of Brothers series and Saving Private Ryan. i enjoyed them all. i watched the restored version of All Quiet on the Western Front which was superb. i just got When Trumpets Fade and the special 2 disc set of The Big Red One which i think i will find interesting since that's the unit i served in. accurate or not, i have enjoyed many of these film immensely and have kept NetFlix jumping. i appreciate the listings even if many of them are pans because of historical accuracy. one of my favorite older movies was Little Big Man which was a great story and wandering through history long before Forest Gump inserted himself in a multitude of historical events decades later. i asked a few posts back if historical inaccuracy made a film unenjoyable for the viewer and nobody really answered. in that post i mentioned how it must be for police, or fire fighters, those in the medical profession, or even lawyers to sit through a movie that they had a true working knowledge of. as a technician and computer geek i have to wince sometimes when i hear or see things wrongly described or portrayed in a film. but no matter how incorrect or how ridiculous i can't say it ever ruined a film for me so much that i didn't enjoy it. that was what interested me in this thread- that a film -not a documentary- could be absolutely dismissed and be described in less than stellar terms because historical accuracies loom larger than the entertainment factor for some. i heard video game playing described once as a state in which the player has a willing suspension of belief. heshe knows that they aren't actually in the game fighting or what ever, but the imaginative immersion is such that the emotional conciousness makes it seem like they are there. it is a voluntary response. a good movie does the same thing for me. i almost feel badly for those unable to experience this. note i said almost! too much coffee again apparently!.

Hello all, The accuracy of a movie, within reason, doesn't keep me from enjoying it. For example, "They Were Expendable", the fact that they are riding on the wrong kind of Elco PT doesn't lessen my opinion of the movie. It conveys the period it is portraying quite well, and the acting is good. On the other hand "Battle of the Bulge" plays very fast and loose with the facts, and the actors over-play their roles. I didn't mind the M-47's as King Tigers, because there are not that many real Tigers around. But when the tank Telly Savalas is commanding gets most of its turret blown off with very little effect on the crew, I had to groan. I thought "Battleground" much better at giving you a feel for what the battle was really like for the men who fought it. A movie is a story, and if it tells that story well, it doesn't matter to me if the details are not quite right, but it should not stray too far from the reality of the history. I am more annoyed with documentary programs that use whatever footage they deem fit, whether correct or not. How many times have I seen those Dauntless Dive-bombers with their insignia painted to resemble Japanese markings, bomb Pearl Harbor? They really should have editors who are vaguely familiar with the subject. They should not use any footage that is not at least close, just because it is easily available. Al

"They really should have editors who are vaguely familiar with the subject. "

Absolutely! Like you I don't get too upset at minor errors but I recently watched a colorized "documentary" on the HISTORY channel, of all places, about the landing at Leyte Gulf. The Hellcats that were taking off from the baby carriers were colorized OD!!!

Ruined the whole thing for me.

I saw a documentary on the Battle of Midway where they used pre-war footage of the battleships of the U.S. Pacific fleet, steaming line ahead, to represent the Japanese forces! Al

I'm not sure if it would be counted as an inaccuracy, but any war movie that has women in it that are not in uniform and participating in the armed conflict, totally ruins it for me. In essence, bloody love stories slowing down the action.

One of my favorite movies has always been "Kelly's Heroes". I thought they made an excellent attempt at accuracy for a 'caper flick'. It was the first movie I ever saw where the German tanks at least resembled real Tigers. One scene that always impressed me was when Oddball's Sherman is passing in front of one of the Tigers, which takes a shot and misses. If you watch the hill in the background you will see that miss explode against it. After seeing many movies where a bullet passes through one window, or windshield, of a car without breaking the window behind, I was surprised by that attention to a small detail. So now I'm gonna sit back, eat some cheese, and drink some wine, and watch "Kelly's Heroes", Baby. Al

Somebody asked what movie with today's technology I would like to see remade.

I would have to think the old TORA TORA TORA film would come to mind for me. Thers was a couple more but they Popped right out of the old Brain bucket

Paul

OHHH the other one would be Midway and fix those errors while they do it.. I didn't know that F9 Panthers and F4 Corsairs fought the Japs so early in the War.

Paul

As long as we're discussing remakes, I think there are some movies that should NOT be remade cause IMHO, they can't be improved on.

Pork Chop HiIl
The Cruel Sea (Directed by David Lean and my favorite war movie)
Pursuit of the Graf Spee - although it does use an American heavy cruiser as the Graf Spee.

I'm sure there are others - unfortunately not many.

I totally agree that Tora! Tora! Tora! and Midway should be remade - but only if it's done as accurately as possible. However there was one highly redeeming quality about Pearl Harbor - Kate Beckinsale.

Paul -

I remember the F4U's in in Midway, but where are the Panthers? I'm not questioning you, I would just like to watch for them the next time I watch it.

Steve

I know it was one of the scenes where the planes on the way back from a mission smack dead into the aft end of the Carrier. With the cockpit skidding halfway down the flight deck.

Now that you metioned it & thinking about it a little more with caffine in my system. It may not have been Midway with the F-9. It may have been The Hunt for Red October that the Panther meets it demise.

Paul

WIND TALKERS!!!! Just terrible couldn't even watch it all the way through!!

i don't know about accuracy, but it certainly was disappointing. another one that i though was a massive let down was The Great Raid. i think that was the name of it- the attack to free POWs from a Japanese prison camp. it had the potential to be something, but ended up being about the equivalent of a network made for TV movie. seems like good war movies aren't much in vogue these days, at least not from the WWI and WWII eras. Viet Nam flicks for the most part seem cliche and it's like the public doesn't want to see anything about Iraq,

hi guys i'm new to this site but i figured i'd add my two cents. first on pearl harbor, micheal bay should've dispenced with the love story and the doolittle raid, and just made a big budget remake of tora,tora,tora. yes it looks dated but it beats bay's pile of crud hands down second has anyone seen stalingrad(1992) i didn't know the russians had t-34/85's in 1941-42? with regards to we were soldiers the film's okay apart from the ending huey's storming in with miniguns blazing, i guess i missed that part when i read the book but if you watch the making of were told they actually kept the cameras rolling and filmed about two miles of film and that the three days the battle actually lasted was filmed, hey i wouldn't mind seeing that as a director's cut plus on the subject of the battle of britain, i loved the film one of my favourites, but the german airforce comprised of only heinkel 111's bf- 109's and stuka's? just my thoughts guys.

hey guys just come up with some more howlers Memphis Belle! the film dipicts the crew's last mission as being bremen, when in fact it was the sub pens of wilhelmshaven, and by the end of the film the plane's got more holes shot in it than swiss cheese, whereas the real Belle arrived home unscathed! And on the subject of custer in the west, the 7th cav armed with winchesters? surely if they'd been that well armed they'd have put up a better defence. then my last howler has got to be Tombstone, don't get me wrong i loved the film, but after reading 'wyatt earp' bt casey terfitiller and 'doc holliday' by gary l roberts you see how many omissions and mistakes there is for on Fred White the sheriff shot by Curly Bill was actually 36 years old not ready for his pension as depicted in the film, also he didn't die on the spot he gave a death bed declaration that Curly Bill didn't intend to kill him. the film also depicts doc holliday killing Ringo, when in actuality he wasn't even in the same state at the time. there's also no mention of wyatt's other brothers warren and james. Are well i guess historical accuracy is sacrificed in favor of a juicier story line.

Now THERE'S a flashback!!! I had to immediately pull up that tune on my iPod.

"But, there's nothing you and I can do.
You and I are only two.
What's right and wrong is hard to say,
Forget about it for today.
We'll stick our heads into the sand,
Just pretend that all is grand,
And hope that everything turns out OK."

"The Ostrich" is one of many terriffc protest songs that Steppenwolf recorded. It's ironic that so many of the sentiments expressed in their songs from 40 years ago are still valid today.

The biggest change is that IMHO the "music" in so many of the contemporary songs can't hold a candle to the quality of some of the songs from that era. (I'm a musician, so I base that on several factors such as complexity of composition, lyrics, and overall musicianship)


The same seems to hold true in some cases for movies. I wonder what Valkryie will be like. I sure hope it's not another Pearl Harbor!!

me too i always like the made for tv film plot to kill hitler that more or less stuck to the real events, lets hope they stick to the history, and not pumping up tom cruise's career.

there may be some Canadian farmers and merchant seamen that would argue that....

sorry i missed the quote button somehow but the above was a response to this...

"Speaking of movies,I wonder when Hollywood will produce a decent one showing how the US saved England in WW2 with the merchant fleet; how England would have starved to death if it wasnt for the US. I mean this is a crucial part of history but it is often overlooked. Its easy to get caught up in the big battles but even amatuer military buffs know how Churchill felt about the Battle of the Atlantic. Yeah,Germany was winning that one for a while there."

And of course using P-51s as the escorting American fighters. The '51 didn't begin to arrive until November/December 1943, but I'm sure it was more because there were plenty of flyable 51's to use and not all that many P-47's by comparison.

Best regards,

Mike

This is a funny thread. Hollywood films (and others) are all about shortcuts, BUT to become "accurate" filmmakers could spend twice even three times as much with little chance of profit. The errors are glaring to you, but do you think the average housewife or businessman cares whether he's looking at a converted T-34 or an actual King TIger? The effect to her/him is the same; a-la "holy f*** there's a tank coming right at me!" Don't count on films becoming more "accurate" in the future either. Its the nature of telling a story. What's always more relevant than pleasing the historical record is reaching an ever-larger audience.

Saving Private Ryan, has so many mistakes and is totally in accurate.
All these modern films use the same technical advisor, he sometimes has roles in films aswell.

We were soldiers- Mel Gibson's blatant Anti- british attitude removed a main Charactor from the film, a Cornishman who fought in the battle alongside Hal, the Guy went onto be Security in one of the Twin towers and was killed 9/11.

Matt

Actually Matt the Englishman you're refering to was in the same unit but his company got ambushed in the Ia Drang valley after Hal Moore's unit had been pulled out that's why there story isn't told in the movie but it is in the book by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway