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Biggest myth in history?
ColPickle
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2007 - 12:19 PM UTC
What do you think is the biggest/most common myth or stereotype in history? Ya I know, kinda weird question, but humor me

BTW I personally think its the bad rep that the Italian army has. Almost every history book I've read portrays the Italians as spinless, disloyal cowards (which is only partly true )
Jon_Vancil
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2007 - 04:11 PM UTC
Hmmm... Americans and Brits always "good guys" that would be a big one. For me, I'd say that's the biggest one. There are others but they deal more with national stereotypes (good and bad). Stupidity reigns supreme and usually it sounds like this: Here are a few one liners and my thoughts.

"Hitler invented the Volkswagen." That's a hoot!

"Tough as a Sherman tank." By tough you mean erupts into flames when looked at?

(From an older American) "yep, them war years were hard. They had to ration SUGAR!" Massive battles, people dying on every corner of the globe and devastation on a scale not experienced in human history oh and also aunt Bertie cant make her pound cake! The HORROR!

"Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Worn out. Nobody learns from history. Ever. Period. "Hey watch this!"- famed last words

"If hitler hadda invaded russia in the winter he'd have won." what a jerk. if Hitler had waited a few months till winter he could have handled the whole thing on his own and not inconvinenced the German Army.

"Ronald Reagan won the cold war" So all those guys in the NATO forces and the east bloc dissidents were just wasting their time? I hate it when a Head of state "does" ore "does not" do something on their own.

"The Klan started out as good guys" I'm sure that was a great comfort to the people they lynched. The devil mad them do it. He's really a good boy... mostly. I hear this from my compatriots alot.



I simply cant continue... too painful
airwarrior
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2007 - 04:13 PM UTC
That Cambrai was a victory for the Allies. It is amazing how it is pushed as a large victory for the Tank Corps., when the ground gained initially could hardly be called astounding and the price paid in the end staggering.
Airchalenged
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2007 - 04:36 PM UTC
The best one I hear is that the South could have won if they had been victorious at Gettysburg. Personally as a southerner I think we were doomed from the beginning. Even Lee had a feeling that the war was all for nothing. We had so few men that even if we won G-burg how would we have captured DC with so few men. It would have been like Fort Waggner on a larger scale with the sides reversed.

The only way the south wins is in wargames
sweaver
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Posted: Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:54 PM UTC
I think that the worst one is the stereotype given to the Confederate soldiers and the Southern people, and on the other side, of the North after the War Between the States ("Civil War"). They are depicted as being a slave-loving racist people who were fighting to keep their slaves, and the North to liberate them. Now I want to say here, that I am not a racist. I am in favor of complete equality of all races. Slavery was an evil that needed to be made right, but did not have to be done with war. This was just a ploy used by President Lincoln to make the war seem "moral" and lessen the opposition to it. Sure, slavery was a catalyst that started the whole process moving, but it was not the averarching reason in the minds of soldiers North and South alike as to why they were fighting. In fact General Grant, who was a slaveholder until after the war, said "If I though this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side" In reality, the war was fought because two distinct cultures had risen up that were basically a continuation of the debates between the Congressmen in the 1790's. The North saw the nation as states joined together into an unbreakable union, and were bound together forever. The South, on the other hand, saw the union as states voluntarily joined together to form a nation, but that these states did not surrender all their rights to the Federal government upon entry, but were clear and distinct units operating freely within the constraints of the Constitution. When the Federal government began to violate the Constitution, the Southern states appealed, and then seceded. They had every right to do this, as the Constitution clearly states that the rights not delegated to the Federal government specifically, are reserved to the states and the people respectively. Furthermore, the Federal government does not have the power to use military force against any state.

Anyway I could go on and onbut it would get pretty political and potentially boring! Oh, and if you find my post offensive, please don't show it on the forum, as we don't want this thread to be taken down, right. Just shoot me a PM, but please keep it civil. Thanks

redshirt
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Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 02:19 AM UTC
The first thoughts that came to me on the biggest myths in history were all far too recent, political and controversial at present, maybe in a year or two they may be discussed as history. Until then I agree with sweaver, the biggest myth is-

The reason for the (US) civil war was to free the slaves.
In our education system it seems that any answer other than “to free the slaves” is incorrect, regardless of the reasons that motivated men to risk there lives.
I am curious to see what happens with the EU when they face this situation. It won’t be over slavery, but federalization of politics, commerce, finance, education or any other subject where authority triumphs over responsibility may bring it about.

Other favorites:

Ferdinand Magellan was the first man to circumnavigate the world. He was killed by natives in the Philippines on the voyage. Juan Sebastian Elcano, was the first.

Columbus discovered America. He discovered many islands in the western hemisphere but not the continent.

Tokyo Rose was an American. Although Iva Toguri spent 7 years in prison for treason she was not one of the Japanese women to broadcast propaganda as “Tokyo Rose”.

That the Japanese made a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had intended the declaration of war to be delivered prior to the attack.

long_tom
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Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 03:16 AM UTC
The biggest myth is the left-wing fairy tale that the CIA overthrew Iran's short-lived democratic government and put the Shah back in, and that it was responsible for overthrowing Allende's government in 1973.

The CIA is a freaking bureaucracy, folks, not a group of sorcerers. The USA simply doesn't have that kind of power. These goverments were overthrown by their own people, not American forces. The Iranians themselves grew disillusioned with the government that replaced the Shah, and presumably decided the Shah wasn't so bad after all. Allende was only elected with one-third of the vote, and was a crazed Marxist whom the Chileans were happy to get rid of, whatever they thought of Pinochet.

Yes, the USA has forcibly replaced foreign governments, but invariably it by simply using our own troops.
MLD
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Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 05:40 AM UTC
Maybe not myth, but the pervasive idea that Texas was the only state to be an independent nation. Hawaii was for great deal longer, and tiny unassuming Vermont managed longer than Texas.
Jon_Vancil
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South Carolina, United States
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 02:58 PM UTC
Several have mentioned that the South could not have won the American civil war. i've thought it over and I agree/disagree.

I think the South could NOT have won an outright victory by offensive actions.

If, however, the South had fought strictly defensive battles I think that the population in the north would have grown weary and sought a truce. Basically the union would lose it's stomach to continue the war. As a result the Confederacy could have basically achieved her objectives with no deployment north of pre war positions.

A stretch perhaps but.....who knows?
Drader
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 08:07 PM UTC
The 'stab in the back' that allegedly cost the German army victory in WW1. A lie perpetrated by very military men that led Germany to disaster and were too cowardly to face up to it.

David
sweaver
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Posted: Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 10:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The reason for the (US) civil war was to free the slaves.
In our education system it seems that any answer other than “to free the slaves” is incorrect, regardless of the reasons that motivated men to risk there lives.



I'm glad to see someone agrees with me.


Quoted Text

That the Japanese made a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had intended the declaration of war to be delivered prior to the attack.



Good point. A Reader's Digest documentary I have said that the failure of the Japanese embassy to deliver the declaration on time, was due to the ambassador's inability to type quickly. I don't know how accurate that is, just a thought.
goldenpony
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Zimbabwe
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2007 - 03:43 AM UTC
The greatest myth in history. There are so many of them that have been taught that they are now “truth.”

Yes, Japan did interned to declare war prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course they planned to declare war about 45 minutes prior to the attack, but to them it was an honorable thing to do.

The Civil War was fought over slavery. Hardly! States rights was the cause. The South wanted a weaker Federal government and stronger states. They wanted to allow the future states to decide on slavery and not let the federal government tell those future states their position on slavery.

Along those similar lines, “The War of Northern Aggression.” Who fired first, twice? On January 9, 1861 the Star of the West was fired upon while attempting to resupply Fort Sumter. Then again on April 12, 1861 they fired on Sumter. Also South Carolina had voted to secede in April of 1860, but later decided against this action.

The Holocaust during World War II. Well, there are those sick people who say it did not happen. It did, 6+ million people do not just die for no reason. It was wrong and it happened.

Yes, men from earth did land on the moon several times and return safely to earth.

Humans are alone in the universe. I don't think we are that lucky. Of the Billions of stars out there humans cannot hope to be all that lucky and have picked the only planet that can hold life.

Had Custer not divided his forces the outcome would have been different. Sure the Native American forces would have killed over 500 instead of

Lets see, I know I left out a few. But in real life many myths are taught in school and are considered “fact”. History is written by the victor and at times the victor tells it like they want it to be remembered. If people would only dig a little they will find the truth is out there.

So, back to the question. What is the biggest myth in history? I would have to say, It is not the goats fault the Cubs haven't won a World Series since 1908.

GSPatton
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2007 - 07:33 AM UTC
That the 300 Spartans faced the Persian army all alone on the 3rd day - Actually there was about 1000 Thespians who stayed and died with the Spartans at Thermopoli.

9-11 was in inside job...

acav
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2007 - 10:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The greatest myth in history. There are so many of them that have been taught that they are now “truth.”

Yes, Japan did interned to declare war prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course they planned to declare war about 45 minutes prior to the attack, but to them it was an honorable thing to do.



Following on from the Pearl Harbour myth(s), I'd like to throw this one in the mix for consideration - that, following the events of December 7 1941, that USA declared war on Nazi Germany.

History records that Hitler declared war on the USA , as an obligation under the TriPartite Agreement

Many
more links here...
goldenpony
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Zimbabwe
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Posted: Monday, September 17, 2007 - 01:17 PM UTC
Of course Germany and Italy had to follow thier pact with Japan. It was only a matter of time unitl we were fighting Germayn anyway.

Here is another one that many people think. Hitler was apponted Chancellor, he was not elected. The Nazi party did have a majority in the Reichstag, but Hitler was never elected.

Of 20th century leaders Stalin had more people killed than the rest of them put together.

gunnytank
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 02:57 AM UTC
Here is a myth that was probably started by Hollywood. While watching a History channel show on Pearl Habor, they mentioned the Flying Tigers fighting the Japanese before December 7th, 1941. The Flying Tigers first Combat wasn't until December 20th, 1941. I think the John Wayne movie showing the A.V.G. already fighing when they hear the famous Roosevelt anoucement on December 8th, has a lot to do with this mistake.
Don
P.S.- Remember that the history books are written by the winners.
bgazso
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 04:27 AM UTC
Hmmm,

So, the attack on Pearl Harbor WASN"T a surprise attack because the Japanese really meant to declare war a few minutes before the torpedoes dropped?? That would be interesting news to the U.S. Navy. Besides, I don't recall Japan ever declaring war before attacking another country, so this wasn't exactly an aberration.

Also, if I remember correctly, Germany wasn't obligated to declare war on the U.S. - the treaty with Japan stated that if Japan was ATTACKED that Germany was obligated to declare war, but since Japan was the attacking party, there was no treaty obligation. Hitler did it on his own. And yes, at some point we would've fought Germany, just not because of that treaty.
keenan
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 05:08 AM UTC
Patton could have attacked the Soviets at the end of WW2 and not gotten his buttocks kicked.

Shaun
Airchalenged
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 07:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think that the worst one is the stereotype given to the Confederate soldiers and the Southern people, and on the other side, of the North after the War Between the States ("Civil War"). They are depicted as being a slave-loving racist people who were fighting to keep their slaves, and the North to liberate them. Now I want to say here, that I am not a racist. I am in favor of complete equality of all races. Slavery was an evil that needed to be made right, but did not have to be done with war. This was just a ploy used by President Lincoln to make the war seem "moral" and lessen the opposition to it. Sure, slavery was a catalyst that started the whole process moving, but it was not the averarching reason in the minds of soldiers North and South alike as to why they were fighting. In fact General Grant, who was a slaveholder until after the war, said "If I though this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side" In reality, the war was fought because two distinct cultures had risen up that were basically a continuation of the debates between the Congressmen in the 1790's. The North saw the nation as states joined together into an unbreakable union, and were bound together forever. The South, on the other hand, saw the union as states voluntarily joined together to form a nation, but that these states did not surrender all their rights to the Federal government upon entry, but were clear and distinct units operating freely within the constraints of the Constitution. When the Federal government began to violate the Constitution, the Southern states appealed, and then seceded. They had every right to do this, as the Constitution clearly states that the rights not delegated to the Federal government specifically, are reserved to the states and the people respectively. Furthermore, the Federal government does not have the power to use military force against any state.

Anyway I could go on and onbut it would get pretty political and potentially boring! Oh, and if you find my post offensive, please don't show it on the forum, as we don't want this thread to be taken down, right. Just shoot me a PM, but please keep it civil. Thanks




I totally agree. Some friends were shocked when I told them that LIncoln would have kept slavery if it could have saved the union. THe war was about states rights not slavery. That didn't become an issue until halfway through the war when the north knew they were going to win. What is funny is when you ask someone who had more slaves Lee or Grant and they go for Lee thinking "obviously the leader of the northern Army wouldn't own any slaves" and you tell them that Grant owned more slaves than Lee (this doesn't count the fact that Grant soon after freed his slaves). Many of the Confederate generals didn't own a single slave and i want to say some where around 60% of the ANV owned no slaves and of those that did a high majority owned less than a dozen slaves. Only a very tiny majority owned 30 or more slaves.


Quoted Text

Several have mentioned that the South could not have won the American civil war. i've thought it over and I agree/disagree.

I think the South could NOT have won an outright victory by offensive actions.

If, however, the South had fought strictly defensive battles I think that the population in the north would have grown weary and sought a truce. Basically the union would lose it's stomach to continue the war. As a result the Confederacy could have basically achieved her objectives with no deployment north of pre war positions.

A stretch perhaps but.....who knows?



I was only thinking offensively It is true they may have been able to win a defensive war. They did very good on the defensive until they decided to go on the offensive.


Quoted Text

That the 300 Spartans faced the Persian army all alone on the 3rd day - Actually there was about 1000 Thespians who stayed and died with the Spartans at Thermopoli.



it was actually 2000 other greeks According to Herodotus, the Greek army included the following forces:
Units Numbers
Spartans 300
Mantineans 500
Tegeans 500
Arcadian Orchomenos 120
Other Arcadians 1,000
Corinthians 400
Phlians 200
Mycenaeans 80
Thespians 700
Thebans 400
Phocians 1,000
Opuntian Locrians 13
Total 5,213

To this number must be added 1,000 other Lacedemonians (Spartan Hoplites) mentioned by Diodorus Siculus and perhaps 800 auxiliary troops from other Greek cities, bringing the total up to 7,000. A further 900 Helots (Spartan serfs) also fought at the battle. Many modern historians, who usually consider Herodotus more reliable, prefer his claim of 7,000 men. The numbers changed later on in the battle as, under orders, the entire army retreated and only 2,000 Spartans, Helots, Thespians and Thebans remained. (Another number says that only 700 Thespians and the 400 Thebans stayed with the original 300 spartans)

Here is commentary on the final moments of the battle (contrary to what the movie shows:)) Although the Greeks now number only 1400 or so, the Persians are scared to death of them. Their infantry has to be whipped forward by the officers and pure numbers eventually overwhelmed the Spartans. Leonides falls in the fight and the remaining Greeks use all their power to drive the enemy back to get his body (it took 4 attempts of non-hoplite style fighting). The Greeks run to a hill for a last stand at the entry to the narrows of the pass. Now the Thebans under the command of Leontiades surrender and the Thespians and the Spartans are left to their fate. There are only 900-1000 men left! They stand in close ranks and the Persians completeley circle them and fire thousands of arrows and spears to kill them. The battle site was discovered in modern times by finding the Persian arrowheads. Xerxes found the body of king Leonidas and had it beheaded and the body crucified.

but you were right that Thespians comprised the main rearguard. It also says that there were only 299 Spartan Casualties but there is no source for this so I am looking in to this. The Spartan Delios who is leading the Greeks at the end of 300 at Platea represents Pausanias the real general who lead the Spartans there. It does say anything about him being at Thermopylae.

Matt
Airchalenged
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 07:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Columbus discovered America. He discovered many islands in the western hemisphere but not the continent.



My friend still insists that he discovered the world. He always says "The Vikings didn't discover America COlumbus did and I don't care what you say." He is crazy Pro-America..


Quoted Text

Maybe not myth, but the pervasive idea that Texas was the only state to be an independent nation. Hawaii was for great deal longer, and tiny unassuming Vermont managed longer than Texas.



California was a 'republic' for less than a month before it surrendered to US Forces.
Removed by original poster on 09/19/07 - 02:59:12 (GMT).
sweaver
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 09:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think that the worst one is the stereotype given to the Confederate soldiers and the Southern people, and on the other side, of the North after the War Between the States ("Civil War"). They are depicted as being a slave-loving racist people who were fighting to keep their slaves, and the North to liberate them. Now I want to say here, that I am not a racist. I am in favor of complete equality of all races. Slavery was an evil that needed to be made right, but did not have to be done with war. This was just a ploy used by President Lincoln to make the war seem "moral" and lessen the opposition to it. Sure, slavery was a catalyst that started the whole process moving, but it was not the averarching reason in the minds of soldiers North and South alike as to why they were fighting. In fact General Grant, who was a slaveholder until after the war, said "If I though this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side" In reality, the war was fought because two distinct cultures had risen up that were basically a continuation of the debates between the Congressmen in the 1790's. The North saw the nation as states joined together into an unbreakable union, and were bound together forever. The South, on the other hand, saw the union as states voluntarily joined together to form a nation, but that these states did not surrender all their rights to the Federal government upon entry, but were clear and distinct units operating freely within the constraints of the Constitution. When the Federal government began to violate the Constitution, the Southern states appealed, and then seceded. They had every right to do this, as the Constitution clearly states that the rights not delegated to the Federal government specifically, are reserved to the states and the people respectively. Furthermore, the Federal government does not have the power to use military force against any state.

Anyway I could go on and onbut it would get pretty political and potentially boring! Oh, and if you find my post offensive, please don't show it on the forum, as we don't want this thread to be taken down, right. Just shoot me a PM, but please keep it civil. Thanks




I totally agree. Some friends were shocked when I told them that LIncoln would have kept slavery if it could have saved the union. THe war was about states rights not slavery. That didn't become an issue until halfway through the war when the north knew they were going to win. What is funny is when you ask someone who had more slaves Lee or Grant and they go for Lee thinking "obviously the leader of the northern Army wouldn't own any slaves" and you tell them that Grant owned more slaves than Lee (this doesn't count the fact that Grant soon after freed his slaves). Many of the Confederate generals didn't own a single slave and i want to say some where around 60% of the ANV owned no slaves and of those that did a high majority owned less than a dozen slaves. Only a very tiny majority owned 30 or more slaves.

Matt



Thanks Matthew. It's good to know I'm not the only one who believes this.

As far as I know, neither Lee nor Jackson owned slaves. They were both devout Christians who saw slavery as "a moral and political evil". I don't know about the Union generals like Grant and Sherman, but I know that Lincoln, during his fourth debate with Steven Douglas in 1858, said:

"I will say that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to interme=arry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they can not so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Something in the realm of 6% of the Southern landowners owned slaves, so to say that the Confederacy fought to keep their slaves seems silly.

BTW, I like your avatar. Is it taken from Band of Brothers, or is it you?
Airchalenged
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 10:59 AM UTC
Yeah Its Robin Laing as Heffron.

Grant obtained a few slaves as dowry from Julia's father when they got married but he freed them soon after. Not sure about Sherman. I know of one instance in which Col. Burgwyn had a "slave" that was more like his best friend and when he was killed in battle the slave carried his stuff back home to his father.

Burgwyn is holding the flag seconds before he is mortally wounded on McPherson's Ridge.


Burgwyn is on the foreground horse and Lt. Col Lane is to his right with the Moravian Band right behind them.

As far as I know the closest stonewall had to a slave was a free black who volunteered to be his orderly in order to do his part for the country.
Finch
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 11:36 AM UTC
I will tread lightly on the Civil war myths but I will say this: The Confederacy was most assuredly founded to preserve slavery and everything that went with it. As an American it pains me to say that but it is the truth.

That is very different from the motivations of individual soldiers on either side and it is different from the motivations of northern politicians. I think it is probably true that few northern politicians were willing to fight a war to free the slaves - even some of the abolitionist politicians were willing to take the "goodbye and good riddance" approach. But I think the slavery issue was clearly uppermost in the motivations and actions of southern elites. The states' rights argument holds less water than a fishing net.

This is not an attack on southern heritage. We have hundreds of years of history in the south and the confederacy is a small part of that.

Soliders mostly fight for their squad mates regardless of the "cause", and to protect their homes. It's a minority who are really motivated by any abstract ideology. We humans are very tribal. If someone attacks "our" group we defend ourselves even if our group is wrong.

Danny Egan

Finch
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 11:53 AM UTC
General Grant owned one slave for a very short time, years before the war.

He freed that man.

He gained no money as a result, i.e., he did not sell the slave nor did he require the slave to work for any great period of time to earn manumission. He did so at a time when he was living in poverty, so he could have taken the money a slave sale would have given him.

As for Lincoln, you can find lots of quotes to support almost anything since he was a politician

His views on slavery and racism evolved during his lifetime. He has a pretty strong record of being against slavery throughout his political life.
His views on race were more complex; he was not a believer in ethnic equality early in his career but after he became President he definitely changed.

One of the things that gets forgotten nowadays is that anti-slavery views could often be accompanied by strong racism. Many white northerners were opposed to slavery and equally opposed to allowing any black folks to live in their states. This was based in part on a desire not to have to compete in the marketplace against slave labor. Funny since a high proportion of Washington's Army was black, and free black men could vote in ten of the original 13 states at the time the Constitution was adopted.

Danny Egan