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Biggest myth in history?
Finch
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Posted: Friday, September 21, 2007 - 09:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How about the myth about statues of men on horses. How many hoves are on the ground says how the person died.

All 4 = died in peace time
One Rasied= Wounded in battle
Two raised= Died in Battle

For some this workds out, others it does not. There are several statues of Andrew Jackson on rearing horses, he did not die in battle. Then thee are statues of US Grant, all four on the ground. He did die in peace.



Nothing but an urban legend.
novembersong
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 04:23 PM UTC

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"Ronald Reagan won the cold war"



Yeah, you didnt know that? Every time my ship went on watch in the north atlantic, Ronnie was on board. Every time I had a 4 hour guard duty in the middle of the night, he'd hang out with me on the fantail S'truth!
novembersong
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 04:25 PM UTC

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The Polish were so behind at the start of World War II they used massed mounted calvary to charge armor



Yeah, that one has always bugged me, and its one a guy at work (who thinks he's oh-so-clever) uses all the time. That, and that the French are all pussies who surrender at the drop of a hat.
goldenpony
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 02:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The Polish were so behind at the start of World War II they used massed mounted calvary to charge armor



Yeah, that one has always bugged me, and its one a guy at work (who thinks he's oh-so-clever) uses all the time. That, and that the French are all pussies who surrender at the drop of a hat.



I know Russia used Calvary and mounted calvary charges druign the war. But there are no dodumented charges of calvary against armor. I wish I could find the article on the British in East Africa fighting the Italians. It states the British used Calvary in that theater several times.

Germany used horses right up until the end of the war. But then again, they did not chrage armor with them in a massed formation.

goldenpony
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 02:47 AM UTC
Here is a myth that I am suprised that has not been mentioned. Frances war record has several "ties" but no wins.

Airchalenged
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 05:08 AM UTC

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Here is a myth that I am suprised that has not been mentioned. Frances war record has several "ties" but no wins.




Yeah Apparently they don't count saving our asses from the British as a win OR the French resistance. They only look at the actual army and if the army didn't 'participate' in the war then apparently it doesn't count.

Matt
goldenpony
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 06:11 AM UTC

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Quoted Text

Here is a myth that I am suprised that has not been mentioned. Frances war record has several "ties" but no wins.




Yeah Apparently they don't count saving our asses from the British as a win OR the French resistance. They only look at the actual army and if the army didn't 'participate' in the war then apparently it doesn't count.

Matt



When I was reading an article about the French Military record they had a set of rules. One of them was fighting in a war when the American's do a majority of the fighting.

That is true about the French Resistant. But, if you look at every major war France has fought, they lost nearly every one.

Finch
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 12:47 PM UTC

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That is true about the French Resistant. But, if you look at every major war France has fought, they lost nearly every one.



You're kidding right?
First of all there's the French army of the revolution, which outfought most of the European powers who invaded after the revolution. Then there's that little guy Napoleon and his conquest of most of Europe. It took the combined forces of Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia to defeat him.
Then they lost the Franco-Prussian war. Then there's the French Army of WW1 that suffered incredible hardships and won (with Allies, yes, but they were on the winning side). No American Army has had to go through what they went through, thankfully.

In WW2, yeah, really lousy record in 1939-40. The Free French units in the second half fought well though; Juin and the FEC enabled the Cassino front to be broken.

Post-WW2, they fought counter-guerrilla wars in Algeria and Vietnam and lost both. I seem to recall we didn't do so well against the Vietnamese either despite a much larger force commitment.

As far as the resistance goes, I suspect an awful lot of the folks who claimed to be maquisards "joined" sometime after May 1945.
Airchalenged
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 04:19 PM UTC
People try to not count Napoleon since he was not actually French. Even though they did end up loosing in the long run they did come fairly close to winning.they had France Spain Italy and everything in between
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 05:11 PM UTC

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Quoted Text

"Ronald Reagan won the cold war"



Yeah, you didnt know that? Every time my ship went on watch in the north atlantic, Ronnie was on board. Every time I had a 4 hour guard duty in the middle of the night, he'd hang out with me on the fantail S'truth!



Ha-ha. But he did significantly increase the defense budget in the 1980's and allow the outdated US military to be modernized, he stood up to the political Left and the so-called peace movement, abandoned the failed detente policies of his predecessors, and publicly supported the Solidarity movement in Poland, when previous presidents failed to do so in 1968 Prague or 1956 Hungary. Oh, he had plenty to do with it, though it's politically incorrect to say so.
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 05:14 PM UTC
One incident nobody mentioned: France did fight on the winning side (with Britain and Israel) during the 1956 Suez Crisis.
bgazso
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 08:46 AM UTC
How 'bout the one about Custer dying a glorious, saber swinging, pistol toting death, blond locks waving in the breeze.

That one has been pretty much debunked by battlefield forensics.

Couple other things - 7th didn't carry sabers into that campaign, and because Custer's wife had nightmares about him being scalped, he cut his hair short to reassure her -can't scalp a crewcut apparently....

Savage
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 10:11 AM UTC
I'm sure you are confusing the French Army with the FFL. IIRC the FFL have never won a battle.

As for RAF Bomber Command- Harris believed that Bomber Command could win the war, as far as I know it was never said that Bomber Command did win the war. Actually Albert Speer when questioned on Bombing and the 2nd front, said something like the greatest success was that Bomber Command diverted almost a million men and tens of thousands of AA guns- plus a large part of the Luftwaffe- away from the front (not to mention the drain on already stretched resources).
Most of those men and AA guns would have ended up fighting on the Eastern front, putting an even heavier burden on the Soviets.

As to Pearl Harbour, from a military viewpoint- the Japanese attack could not have happened at a better place for the US. How many of those lost ships were salvaged?

A great myth is that the US losses in WW2 were amongst the highest for the participating nations. Actually Greece lost more people than the US during WW2.

There are way too many military myths floating around.
Finch
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 11:55 AM UTC

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I'm sure you are confusing the French Army with the FFL. IIRC the FFL have never won a battle.


Help me out here - what is the FFL ? Do you mean the Foreign Legion?
Finch
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:03 PM UTC

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People try to not count Napoleon since he was not actually French. Even though they did end up loosing in the long run they did come fairly close to winning.they had France Spain Italy and everything in between



Napoleon was Corsican but by almost any standard he was at least as "french" as Hitler was "German" or George Washington was "American". Corsica was (and remains) legally a part of France; he spent his entire career in the French Army. Plus a major part of his army was French. So I'm not sure how we can "not count" Napoleon's victories.

It is true that you'll find Corsicans who deny being French, but you'll also find Bretons who deny being French, Sicilians who deny being Italian, Hmong who deny being Vietnamese, Quebecois who wish they weren't Canadian, etc.
Finch
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:11 PM UTC

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Oh, he had plenty to do with it, though it's politically incorrect to say so.



Not "politically incorrect" , simply incorrect. The thing Reagan can be credited with was some moral leadership, such as denouncing the Berlin wall. But the communist system was defeated from within, especially by the truly heroic people of Poland, and ultimately by Gorbachev's refusal to send in the Red Army to put down the latest in a long series of rebellions. Once people knew he wasn't going to send tanks into the streets of eastern Europe, things really fell apart and it was a matter of time.

This is a big, complex subject but IMO Reagan's role is vastly overrated in the USA.

long_tom
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:57 PM UTC

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Quoted Text

Oh, he had plenty to do with it, though it's politically incorrect to say so.



Not "politically incorrect" , simply incorrect. The thing Reagan can be credited with was some moral leadership, such as denouncing the Berlin wall. But the communist system was defeated from within, especially by the truly heroic people of Poland, and ultimately by Gorbachev's refusal to send in the Red Army to put down the latest in a long series of rebellions. Once people knew he wasn't going to send tanks into the streets of eastern Europe, things really fell apart and it was a matter of time.

This is a big, complex subject but IMO Reagan's role is vastly overrated in the USA.




Another reason we're not going to agree. The Soviet Union didn't fail to send tanks in to Poland out of kindness; it was because it was they couldn't get away with it like they did in the past, when the US stepped aside. Yes, rebellions did occur in Eastern Europe, but not because Gorbachev was benign, but because the Soviet Union wasn't so powerful anymore. Thanking Gorbachev for pulling Soviet troops out of Eastern Europe is like thanking Hitler for pulling Wehrmacht troops out of Eastern Europe. Gorbachev was attempting to strengthen the Soviet Union and failed, rather than cause its destruction.

And BTW, it was under Brezhnev's rule that the rebellion in Poland started, and he was no reformer.
Finch
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Posted: Friday, September 28, 2007 - 02:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Oh, he had plenty to do with it, though it's politically incorrect to say so.



Not "politically incorrect" , simply incorrect. The thing Reagan can be credited with was some moral leadership, such as denouncing the Berlin wall. But the communist system was defeated from within, especially by the truly heroic people of Poland, and ultimately by Gorbachev's refusal to send in the Red Army to put down the latest in a long series of rebellions. Once people knew he wasn't going to send tanks into the streets of eastern Europe, things really fell apart and it was a matter of time.

This is a big, complex subject but IMO Reagan's role is vastly overrated in the USA.




Another reason we're not going to agree. The Soviet Union didn't fail to send tanks in to Poland out of kindness; it was because it was they couldn't get away with it like they did in the past, when the US stepped aside. Yes, rebellions did occur in Eastern Europe, but not because Gorbachev was benign, but because the Soviet Union wasn't so powerful anymore. Thanking Gorbachev for pulling Soviet troops out of Eastern Europe is like thanking Hitler for pulling Wehrmacht troops out of Eastern Europe. Gorbachev was attempting to strengthen the Soviet Union and failed, rather than cause its destruction.

And BTW, it was under Brezhnev's rule that the rebellion in Poland started, and he was no reformer.



I didn't say it was because of 'kindness'. I suspect it was because the legitimacy of their system was already so low he wasn't sure it would work this time. Although we'll never know for sure, I cannot imagine any scenario in which the US would have intervened had the Warsaw Pact decided to crush Solidarity with force. So I cannot see any evidence that the US had anything to do with the Soviet actions or lack of action.

You are correct that Brezhnev was no reformer; on the contrary, his period is virtually neo-Stalinist. But rebellions in Poland happened many times. They didn't begin under Brezhnev, they began before that and continued after his time. There are also the Berlin, Czech and Hungarian rebellions to consider. There's also the low price of oil in the 1990s that factored into it. Finally there is Chernobyl and Afghanistan, which had a huge impact.
goldenpony
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Posted: Friday, September 28, 2007 - 11:40 AM UTC
It is wrong to say Reagan won the Cold War. However, he did play a major role and provided a strong figure for which NATO and the remainder of our allies could rally behind.

When he took office Russia was in Afghanistan. Communists were gaining foot holds in Central America and the Caribbean. When he came to office the US military was in a major decline and the nation still hurt from Vietnam and the Iranian hostage Crisis. He was a leader and a father figure that was needed in America at the time. With the help of our strong allies he forged a strong front against Communism. We built the B1, the MX, the Pershing 2, started down the road to the largest peace time build up of American Military might in history.

However, he did not do it alone. England, Germany, Canada, Italy, Spain, France, Norway, Belgium, Japan, Australia, Turkey, Denmark, and every one of our allies helped. Then add in a small but determined group in Poland and you have the makings of the end of the Soviet Union. We stopped communists in Grenada, Nicaragua, and Salvador. Cuban forces left Angola. Vietnam pulled out of its neighbors. The US became strong and respected again. We stopped Libya from getting too much power.

BUT!!! None of this would have happened without the help of our allies and without Ronald Reagan.

As far as Frances military record. They never won a war without outside help. Yes, they won battles, but never a war. Yes, we lost Vietnam, but we also won several along the way. Korea was more like a tie, but it is technically still going on.

Finch
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Posted: Friday, September 28, 2007 - 09:25 PM UTC

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We built the B1, the MX, the Pershing 2, started down the road to the largest peace time build up of American Military might in history.

..... None of this would have happened without the help of our allies and without Ronald Reagan.


All those programs were begun under Jimmy Carter believe it or not. The big buildup started while he was President, but the effects only kicked in while Reagan was in. I'm not trying to rehab Jimmy Carter here, but Reagan would not have had the benefit of those programs had he initiated them...they would have been too late for his presidency.
goldenpony
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 01:09 AM UTC
Carter cancelled all of those programs. He wanted to wait for better programs. Reagan restarted each and every one. He knew the stealth was coming but wanted the B1. He knew the best way to get peace was through strength.

PSullivan
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Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 07:57 AM UTC
Biggest Myth?

I think, in the U.S. anyway, that it has to be that we won the war in Europe (WWII) especially with the invasion at Normandy. In all the U.S. documentaries I have ever seen little or no mention is ever made of the Russo-German war. The Russians would have overrun all of Europe if the Allies hadn’t finally got a toehold in France (the campaign in Italy wasn’t going anywhere).

The war in the east abounded with superlatives:

Largest invasion (Barbarossa)

Biggest tank battle (Kursk)

Most casualties (Russian and German)

Most civilians killed

Most soldiers and civilians MURDERED

The list goes on.

Although the U.S. did supply Russia with a large amount of equipment, especially Trucks, food and clothing the war industry in the USSR was rivaling the U.S. in weapon production.

In June of 1944, the month of D-Day, the Russians were poised to launch “Operation Bagration” resulting in the destruction of Army Group center and pushing the Germans off soviet territory and their drive into Eastern Europe.

Even the new documentaries produced in the U.S. today, such as Ken Burn’s “The War”, give little mention to the USSR’s contribution.

The U.S. won the war in the Pacific but the Russians won the war in Europs.


Paul
goldenpony
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Posted: Monday, October 01, 2007 - 05:28 AM UTC
Yes, the Russian effort in Europe has been understated. It can be argued the Russia did not need a second front in Europe to beat the Germans. Everything that happened on the Russian Front happened in a big way.


goldenpony
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Posted: Monday, October 01, 2007 - 05:33 AM UTC
Not sure if this was mentioned or not.

Vince Foster killed himself.

Savage
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Posted: Monday, October 01, 2007 - 11:12 AM UTC

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Quoted Text

I'm sure you are confusing the French Army with the FFL. IIRC the FFL have never won a battle.


Help me out here - what is the FFL ? Do you mean the Foreign Legion?



Yep, the French Foreign Legion.