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Biggest myth in history?
spongya
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 06:28 AM UTC

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Bin laden was NOT recruited by the CIA in Afghanistan. He had gone there and set up Al-Qaeda (arabic for "the base") to fight the soviets because the whole Muslim Brotherhood deal.





I'm not sure who thinks that BL was actually a fighter, and all. What is true, however -and seems to be a misconsception, because you never hear about it save from historians- that Bin Laden, and the Taliban WAS supported by the CIA. (As was Saddam Hussein. All those pesky WMDs were bought from the Germans, English and Americans. And used with their conscent. All in the '80s -I think it's the most important part.)

The big myth is the notion that the Allies fought for "freedom" and "democracy for all" in the two WWs. It'd be enough to take a look at what they actually did in their colonies (English, French, Duch and the rest of the gang), and the fact that the US was in full-swing seggregation. (Heck, the French are still waging their own little proxy war in Africa...)
I can't see any difference between a yellow star and a "whites only" sign.
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 09:37 AM UTC
Well I would have to disagree with some of the aboves. For starters- Bin Laden was not specifically supported by the CIA. The Mujahadeen was, and in the grand scheme of things money probobly tricked to Bin Laden. Anyway I don't see the big deal. It was a war that people took sides in. At that time they were our friends.; who knew that we would be fighting them twenty-some years later...? Sadam Insane was in fact supported by the US. Again, same circumstances. He was fighting Iran and was our friend. Iraq was one of the more western friendly states at the time. Who knew we would be fighting them too?!

To the point of German vs. Allied troops being equal or worse than each other. The Soviets had the greatest numbers of all! That is the reason THEY won... Yes they had tough troops, but they faced their own guns or the germans'! Give me a break about the toughness. Different peope react in different ways. Different units react in different ways. Fanatical SS troops were probobly tougher than regular infantry. But Rangers, Airborne, Commandos, etc. were tougher than them! Bottom line- Germans lost! They had a world fighting against them. No matter how tough they were they were going to get their a**es kicked!

-Mike
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 09:51 AM UTC

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.

My point was that you take a man from any part of the world and give him the same training, he will be the equal of the other.

James




Very good point. Take for example the Air War in the Pacific. It was really close until the Japanese started to loose their top notch pilots. The Zero was a better over all plane, but the American's learned how to out fly it. The US rotated pilots to make sure they spread the wealth around to younger pilots.

In Vietnam the North Vietnamese Air Force downed a good deal of American planes not because they were better than the American's, but because they learned how we flew to and from our targets. They used our tactics against us. Then Robin Olds used our tactics against them. I forget the operation, but the F-4's flew in as a flight of F-105's. This allowed us to turn the tables and down several Mig 21's.

The German's at the start of the war did not have superior equipment. But, they used it better than the other guy and were able to beat them. By the time of Kursk Germany used the same tactics and the Russian's were ready for them.

Warfare is not always decided by the guy with the biggest or best equipped army. It comes down to brains. Training and learning from the other guy will help as much a anything.

long_tom
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 11:31 AM UTC

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The biggest myth is the left-wing fairy tale that the CIA overthrew Iran's short-lived democratic government and put the Shah back in, and that it was responsible for overthrowing Allende's government in 1973.

The CIA is a freaking bureaucracy, folks, not a group of sorcerers. The USA simply doesn't have that kind of power. These goverments were overthrown by their own people, not American forces. The Iranians themselves grew disillusioned with the government that replaced the Shah, and presumably decided the Shah wasn't so bad after all. Allende was only elected with one-third of the vote, and was a crazed Marxist whom the Chileans were happy to get rid of, whatever they thought of Pinochet.

Yes, the USA has forcibly replaced foreign governments, but invariably it by simply using our own troops.




Well, I think some reading is in due.
For starters I would suggest the recently unclassified CIA documents.
As Colbert said: facts have a well-known liberal bias.



Ironically you revive this at a time when this was talked about on another (non-model) forum.

My story still stands-the CIA didn't overthrow Allende, the Chileans did. The declassified documents only indicate that the CIA attempted to pay people in the Chilean government to get rid of Allende, and cut off the funds when it didn't work. Sorry, I prefer truth over your supposed "facts."
spongya
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 01:47 PM UTC

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My story still stands-the CIA didn't overthrow Allende, the Chileans did. The declassified documents only indicate that the CIA attempted to pay people in the Chilean government to get rid of Allende, and cut off the funds when it didn't work. Sorry, I prefer truth over your supposed "facts."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm

Here's a starting point for you. Read the notes and references. (These facts are not mine, thank you. I feel dirty even reading about these things. As another famous person once said, by the way, "everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts". Facts remain facts even if they're not to one's liking.) Even if the US involvement was in large part unsuccessful (IF, which is controversial) the fact that the US tried to interfere with a sovereign country's internal business is shameful. (What would you say if some Chinese politicians tried to rig the elections in the US? Maybe orchestrate a coup? "They just tried, no big deal?") Just by trying they made this claim true -hence not a myth.

I think the discussion was about Iran, no?
"Operation Ajax"
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/19/i_ins.00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1021997,00.html
Washington's wise advice. Ralph R. Reiland Pittsburgh Tribune Review July 30, 2007.
The United States, Iran and Operation 'Ajax': inverting interpretative orthodoxy.Middle Eastern Studies July, 2003. Marsh, Steve.

Here are the facts (some if them; you need to dig into them to have the complete picture). I am curious about your answer. (to the facts, not your opinion on me, as a person.)


Mike,
This "friend yesterday, enemy today, so what" policy always fail. Think about Stalin, and his pact with Hitler -it directly lead to Operation Barbarossa.
The problem with these short-sighted policies were that they enabled these monsters to become more powerful than they ever would have been, leading to terrible consequences. Perceived short-term gains lead to enormous losses in the long run. (Not to mention that supplying Saddam with chemical weapons and letting him use them on Iranian troops and Kurdish civilians is plain criminal.) Don't forget that the Taliban -and the foreign "freedom fighters" (direct quote from TIME) wouldn't have been able to hold out that long without CIA support -and the war lasted ten years, costing more than a million lives. Much more than it would have without CIA intervention. Also, the Iraq-Iran was had terrible cost in life, and was the sole consequence of the Western power's facilitation. Saddam would not have attacked Iran without approval. Think about the consequences of that war (besides 1.5 million dead) -starting with the Gulf War, and why it lead to Bin Laden, and his hatred to hate the "Great Satan". These policies always fail -there is a term for that: "backslash". That's why it's important to realize this.


I think we got away from the original discussion. If you want to continue, send me a PM.
long_tom
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 03:42 PM UTC

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My story still stands-the CIA didn't overthrow Allende, the Chileans did. The declassified documents only indicate that the CIA attempted to pay people in the Chilean government to get rid of Allende, and cut off the funds when it didn't work. Sorry, I prefer truth over your supposed "facts."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm

Here's a starting point for you. Read the notes and references. (These facts are not mine, thank you. I feel dirty even reading about these things. As another famous person once said, by the way, "everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts". Facts remain facts even if they're not to one's liking.) Even if the US involvement was in large part unsuccessful (IF, which is controversial) the fact that the US tried to interfere with a sovereign country's internal business is shameful. (What would you say if some Chinese politicians tried to rig the elections in the US? Maybe orchestrate a coup? "They just tried, no big deal?") Just by trying they made this claim true -hence not a myth.

I think the discussion was about Iran, no?
"Operation Ajax"
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/19/i_ins.00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1021997,00.html
Washington's wise advice. Ralph R. Reiland Pittsburgh Tribune Review July 30, 2007.
The United States, Iran and Operation 'Ajax': inverting interpretative orthodoxy.Middle Eastern Studies July, 2003. Marsh, Steve.

Here are the facts (some if them; you need to dig into them to have the complete picture). I am curious about your answer. (to the facts, not your opinion on me, as a person.)



My answer is as follows: with a few carefully selected facts, and ignoring others, you can "prove" anything. For example: the Earth appears to be flat, therefore it must be flat. And yes, I've already been exposed to the stories you mentioned before. You claim the CIA is capable of overthrowing foreign governments. You simply fail to make the case. Ultimately the Chileans themselves overthrew Allende, not the CIA, no matter how you grab at straws in an attempt to "prove" otherwise. And I still don't buy the idea that Mossadegh was overthrown by anyone except his fellow Iranians. The umpteen conspiracy theories about JFK being assassinated by the CIA doesn't hide the well-established truth that Lee Harvey Oswald was the real assassin, and a maniac who acted alone. Just because people don't like to hear that doesn't make it untrue.

As for "morality", using your logic it was wrong for us to destroy Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. It was wrong for the North to go to war against the Confederacy. So you can guess what I think of your moral opinions.
Halfyank
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 03:59 PM UTC

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I think we got away from the original discussion. If you want to continue, send me a PM.



Gentleman, can you please take this off line privately. I'm too tired after a hard day's work to completely selectively edit these posts, and I don't want to shoot from the hip and delete them all together but I am REALLY uncomfortable about the tone of some of these recent posts and about the touchiness of the subject matter. I'll review them in more detail tomorrow but in the mean time take it outside please.


spooky6
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:34 PM UTC

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Man for man though? I'd say US and Commenwealth troops were far better trained than the average Russian soldier and probably most heer units conscripted towards the end of the war.



Certainly if you take the German soldiers conscripted in 1945, that would be true. But that's not realistic. The status of German manpower in 1945 was a result of the war. You have to take an average from the entire war years, or compare the western Allies at the peak of their power to the Germans at the peak of theirs. Even American platoon officers were getting a mere 21 days training late in the war, so I doubt you can call the average American soldier well-trained. And there was very little chance of the Allies fighting the Germans man for man. Air power tipped the balance. Whenever air power wasn't really a factor (Market Garden and Wacht am Rhein) the Germans were the better troops.


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One of the main reasons the ardennes offensive failed was the US infantryman's determination to not give up or retreat, exactly the opposite of what Hitler had predicted.



Quite untrue. The American line broke in the Ardennes, and the troops retreated en masse. The only thing that stopped the Germans was lack of fuel, giving the 101st and other US reserve units the chance to use the lull to move up to Bastogne and other strongpoints. Even then, the Germans were unable to use their panzer groups to crush the defenders because they hadn't fuel.


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In a numerical and equipment equivalent battle would the fallschirmsjager have an advantage over the US airborne or the red devils? I'd say it'd be pretty equal if not an allied advantage, because as mentioned german standards slackened towards the end of the war



The airborne units of all the warring nations were more or less equal in quality, but that's due to the special training and unit cohesion these units have. Training & kit was far advanced to that of the average soldier, where national qualities are more a factor due to lesser training.


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The same could be said for Rangers or cammando's against the SS, not a lot in it.



Here you're comparing apples to oranges, James. You're comparing special forces to elite infantry. Would you compare the SAS to the Paras or Marines? Of course not. The German equivalent of the Rangers and Commandos would be the Brandenburgers or Skorzeny's mob. You would have to compare the Guards Brigade to the Waffen-SS, and I doubt the Grenadiers or the Coldstreams would have been a match for the Leibstandarte or Das Reich, which maintained standards right upto the end.


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My point was that you take a man from any part of the world and give him the same training, he will be the equal of the other.



I couldn't disagree more. As an Irishman yourself, you should know that certain nationalities (particularly in the past) are better at war than others. It's the reasons Pathans, Gurkhas, Germans, Nung Chinese, Australians and other peoples have the reputations they do. This is less apparent today, where education, information, healthcare, nutrition, and other factors are more or less standardized across the First World, but it wasn't so in the mid-20th Century.


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My Other Favorite myth is that ALL german soldiers were Nazi's

Oh, very far from the truth.



If you mean members of the Nazi party, no, they weren't. But most German servicemen (and most of the civil population) truly believed what Hitler and the Nazis stood for -- ie racial superiority, Leibensraum, hatred of the Jews, etc (heck, most of Europe and the USA didn't really like Jews very much either).
Jamesite
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 10:05 PM UTC

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My point was that you take a man from any part of the world and give him the same training, he will be the equal of the other.

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I couldn't disagree more. As an Irishman yourself, you should know that certain nationalities (particularly in the past) are better at war than others. It's the reasons Pathans, Gurkhas, Germans, Nung Chinese, Australians and other peoples have the reputations they do. This is less apparent today, where education, information, healthcare, nutrition, and other factors are more or less standardized across the First World, but it wasn't so in the mid-20th Century.



Talk about getting your facts right! Im Scots-English not Irish!
(However I live in Northern Ireland now hence the profile - I understand you weren't to know.)

Granted, there are numerous geographical and other anthropogenic factors that can influence a culture (The Kenyan's being excellent long distance runners for example), but I stand by my point that you pick two men from different countries you can't say X will be better than Y at soldiering because of his place of birth.
As you mention, many countries do have reputations, and while the average soldier is a major player in this, he isn't the only factor.
I won't tackle the other points as I can see this going way off track. My only point was - don't judge a book by it's cover.

James
spongya
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 04:15 AM UTC
[quote][quote]
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My answer is as follows: with a few carefully selected facts, and ignoring others, you can "prove" anything. For example: the Earth appears to be flat, therefore it must be flat. And yes, I've already been exposed to the stories you mentioned before. You claim the CIA is capable of overthrowing foreign governments. You simply fail to make the case. Ultimately the Chileans themselves overthrew Allende, not the CIA, no matter how you grab at straws in an attempt to "prove" otherwise. And I still don't buy the idea that Mossadegh was overthrown by anyone except his fellow Iranians. The umpteen conspiracy theories about JFK being assassinated by the CIA doesn't hide the well-established truth that Lee Harvey Oswald was the real assassin, and a maniac who acted alone. Just because people don't like to hear that doesn't make it untrue.
As for "morality", using your logic it was wrong for us to destroy Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. It was wrong for the North to go to war against the Confederacy. So you can guess what I think of your moral opinions.





It appears that you have not read any of the links. I guess the Library of Congress, the CIA's
own documents, and all the other official paperwork are "selective" when they do not agree with your beliefs. (Not to mention that I included an article which states that Albright actually apologized to the Iranians in 2000 for the coup.) You read very selectively, and refuse to see anything says different from your standpoint. You have not argued against any of the facts and statements in the links -only made statements unrelated to the issue. Any further argument therefore is futile.

(I'm not really sure why you bring JFK up. It has nothing to do with this. Unless you really are trying to derail any intelligent discussion and turn it into mud-throwing. In this case we can start a discussion about Global Warming as well.)



Your arguement about morality does not make sense whatsoever. Helping tyrants into power, supporting them, just because the short-term political goal seem to require it does not have anything to do with the fight against Nazi Germany. As a sidenote, the Germans declared war first, so fighting against them wasn't really an American decision. Bringing up the Japanese makes even less sense, as they actually attacked the US. I have no idea about why exactly the North fought the South, but I have read some interesting arguments here. Nobody said anything about morality, though.
But all this has nothing to do with what I said, and nothing to do with morality. I urge you to read about the School of Americas, and how the CIA sponsored petty little mass-murderers, death squads, and all, in South America. Fighting against Nazism, and facilitating murder of civilians in sovereign countries that are not in a state of war against the US in the name of fighting Communism are two very different things -and in this case you can talk about morality.

A sidenote about morality and Germany: I would like to remind you that all conservative forces in the US wanted to cooperate with the Nazis up until '41, and promoted isolation. It took FDR to manouver the country into the war -and before Pearl Harbor, he risked impeachement just for supplying the British with arms. There are many excellent books on that period by respected historians; I encourage you to pay a visit to your local library.

Since discussion is impossible until you at least read the supporting facts, I'm out. Send me a PM when you are ready to argue with facts.
Finch
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:27 AM UTC

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And there was very little chance of the Allies fighting the Germans man for man. Air power tipped the balance. Whenever air power wasn't really a factor (Market Garden and Wacht am Rhein) the Germans were the better troops.


That's quite a generalization. Surely the Allied assembly of a superior air-ground combined arms team suggests they knew something about the business they were in. Likewise the German FAILURE to develop such a team shows a weakness in their thinking and their execution.

Aside from that...US forces did pretty well in the Ardennes even in the first week or two before any air power could be brought to bear.

Part of my point is, allied leadership was wise enough to make sure that a "man-for-man" or "tank-for-tank" contest never developed. The Germans were stupid enough to allow that to happen through their own dumb strategic choices.

Dead men and losers fight fair.


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The American line broke in the Ardennes, and the troops retreated en masse. The only thing that stopped the Germans was lack of fuel, giving the 101st and other US reserve units the chance to use the lull to move up to Bastogne and other strongpoints. Even then, the Germans were unable to use their panzer groups to crush the defenders because they hadn't fuel.


Um, sorry, that's not true. Some US units broke. Most didn't. The Germans were beaten by several factors including their own poor planning, the determination of the average GI, and Allied leadership. They had plenty of fuel in their dumps, but lacked the means (because of that poor planning again) to get it to their own forward units. Having enough trucks and the good sense to plan operations along routes that can carry your logistical tail isn't as glamorous as Tiger tanks but it is awfully important.



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The airborne units of all the warring nations were more or less equal in quality, but that's due to the special training and unit cohesion these units have. Training & kit was far advanced to that of the average soldier, where national qualities are more a factor due to lesser training.



Most equipment used by Airborne units was inferior to regular units. German Airborne units got some fancy small arms - so what. US, Soviet and British Airborne units used mostly the same Infantry weapons, but had to make do with far less artillery. A regular US Infantry Division had 54 tubes of 105mm and 155mm howitzers full-time. An Airborne Division had....zero. The had some 75mm pack howitzers. A regular US Infantry Division was almost always deployed as part of a Corps containing much more artillery and other support assets. An Airborne Division was on its own much of the time. It was their volunteer personnel, training and leadership that set them apart.

I'd also argue that some Airborne units were far, far better than others but that's a separate discussion
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 01:12 PM UTC
Post deleated by moderator due to tone of personal attack by one poster against another.

Halfyank
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 04:11 PM UTC
Everybody following this thread please read before posting further.

Gentleman, and if are there are any ladies reviewing this thread ladies, This has been one of the longest, and most interesting thread on the History Forum in a great while. I have learned much from reading these posts. That said it has also given me, as moderator, more gray hairs than I already have. There have been posts on religion, current events, politics, and personal attacks.

I remind everybody that this is to be a CIVIL, non-political, discussion of HISTORY, and not current events. Please bear this in mind before posting any more posts on this thread.

I really, really don't want to block this thread from any more new posts.

spooky6
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:13 PM UTC

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Talk about getting your facts right! Im Scots-English not Irish!



Sorry about that, but I guess the same applies for Scots. But my point was that in the late 20th and early 21st Centuries, this is possibly true, but wasn't so the further back you go. It was the reason certain peoples were better at war (like the Spartans) in spite of the fact that their taactics and equipment were mostly the same as their contemporaries (the other Greeks). It came out of a culture and mindset that was geared for war. And it is misleading to say that one can take a soldier from anywhere in the world and give him the training to match another soldier, because that's not how it works. You take a Syrian soldier and train him alongside Israeli troops and he most probably will perform as well. But if you take a Syrian battalion and give it the same training as the Israelis, then send them up against an Isreli battalion. I doubt they'll perform as well. There's more to soldiering than equipment and training.


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Surely the Allied assembly of a superior air-ground combined arms team suggests they knew something about the business they were in. Likewise the German FAILURE to develop such a team shows a weakness in their thinking and their execution.



This isn't the point, but I'll indulge you. The reason the Allies had superior combined arms teams at that stage of the war was because they'd learned from the Germans. It wasn't superior thinking on the part of the Allies. The reason the Germans no longer had that capability was because Allied numerical superiority had beaten them.

However, the point I was contending was James' statement that the Allied soldier was equal or superior to the German soldier. What you've said above is to do with tactics. And even there it was the numerical superiority as well as the productivity of the Americans and Russians that beat the Germans.


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Aside from that...US forces did pretty well in the Ardennes even in the first week or two before any air power could be brought to bear.



If you say so. But the fact remains that what stopped the Germans was lack of fuel, regardless of whether it was logistic failure or actual dearth of fuel. This isn't a discussion of who had the better admin.


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Part of my point is, allied leadership was wise enough to make sure that a "man-for-man" or "tank-for-tank" contest never developed. The Germans were stupid enough to allow that to happen through their own dumb strategic choices.



While I find your adjectives a bit unnecessary, you've just proved my point. The reason the Allied leadership was forced to avoid the "man-for-man" and "tank-for-tank" contest was because the German was superior. And if you think the Germans chose a "man-for-man" strategy, you're mistaken. The Blitzkrieg was all about overwhelming the enemy defences. The reason Germany was later outnumbered was because they no longer had the manpower or materiel.


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The Germans were beaten by several factors including their own poor planning, the determination of the average GI, and Allied leadership.



Nonsense. If the German offensive hadn't been halted by lack of fuel, Kampfgruppe Peiper would have reached the coast, the 101st and other units would never have had time to move up. Their would have been no determined resistance such as at Bastogne because it would've been too late. I know revisionist historians such as Stephen Ambrose paint a different picture, but it's just not true.


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Most equipment used by Airborne units was inferior to regular units.



Once more, Danny, you're missing the point, which was that airborne and other elite units cannnot be taken as examples because they're far superior to the average infantry unit, and the things that make them superior (better training, esprite de corps, manpower quality, and kit) nullify the national traits that are more valuable in lesser units.
Finch
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 09:57 AM UTC

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Aside from that...US forces did pretty well in the Ardennes even in the first week or two before any air power could be brought to bear.



If you say so. But the fact remains that what stopped the Germans was lack of fuel, regardless of whether it was logistic failure or actual dearth of fuel. This isn't a discussion of who had the better admin.[/quote]

With respect, it's not a matter of *me* saying so, it is loud and clear in any decent campaign history. The Ardennes offensive is far larger than Kampfgruppe Peiper, yet you are generalizing from that unit to the whole battle. And let's not forget WHY KG Peiper ran out of fuel,; they were deployed in an area with very few roads, and those roads were poor; they had been repeatedly denied the use of some of those routes by US defenders. They wandered around and eventually destroyed their own vehicles, accomplishing very little.

Finch
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:00 AM UTC

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Most equipment used by Airborne units was inferior to regular units.



Once more, Danny, you're missing the point, which was that airborne and other elite units cannnot be taken as examples because they're far superior to the average infantry unit, and the things that make them superior (better training, esprite de corps, manpower quality, and kit) nullify the national traits that are more valuable in lesser units.



We agree Airborne units *generally* have better training, espirt de corps, and I would add leadership. But not equipment. Please name a significant piece of equipment used by US, Soviet or British Airborne units that was better than what regular non-Airborne units got. In any significant category, they were *worse* off.

spooky6
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:10 PM UTC

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With respect, it's not a matter of *me* saying so, it is loud and clear in any decent campaign history. The Ardennes offensive is far larger than Kampfgruppe Peiper, yet you are generalizing from that unit to the whole battle. And let's not forget WHY KG Peiper ran out of fuel,; they were deployed in an area with very few roads, and those roads were poor; they had been repeatedly denied the use of some of those routes by US defenders. They wandered around and eventually destroyed their own vehicles, accomplishing very little.



Really? Please tell me which campaign history claims that the initial advance of the German divisions in the Ardennes (of which Kampfgruppe Peiper was the spearhead) was stopped by anything other than a lack of fuel. Once the initial advance had run out of steam, the Germans wasted fuel trying to regroup in an area thatt had poor infrastructure. It was only then that the US was able to mount an effective defence by moving up fresh units. The units that had been in the line at the base of the Bulge were roundly beaten by the Germans, resulting in the penetration.


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Please name a significant piece of equipment used by US, Soviet or British Airborne units that was better than what regular non-Airborne units got. In any significant category, they were *worse* off.



Danny, do you still not get it? My point is that airborne units were of a better quality than leg units and therefore cannot be used as a comparison. Do you disagree with this?
Finch
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Posted: Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Danny, do you still not get it? My point is that airborne units were of a better quality than leg units and therefore cannot be used as a comparison. Do you disagree with this?



I mean no disrespect to you personally, but your facts are shaky, your arguments make no sense and you keep shifting the goalposts. All this makes it impossible to have a productive conversation.
blaster76
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Posted: Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 08:28 AM UTC
Reading most of the posts tat have been written in the past couple of days, I think a few of you need to either personal PM each other your disagreements, or just drop it. There are far to many offensive remarks in how you are presenting your case. I am not the moderator but it is only a matter of time before Jim or Rodger locks this thing down. Guys, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Comments like "Do you still not get it," or "Your arguments are shakey"...smack of personal attacks. You aren't going to change the other guys mind all you are going to do is erupt into more personal attacks.
spooky6
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Posted: Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 07:05 PM UTC
Sorry, but I wasn't trying to get personal.


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mean no disrespect to you personally, but your facts are shaky, your arguments make no sense and you keep shifting the goalposts. All this makes it impossible to have a productive conversation.



This is a broad generalisation, Danny, and in my view is a bit of a cop-out. I've addressed your points individually, so if you feel any argument is shaky or insensible, please point out which ones and we can discuss 'em. I have not moved the goalposts, but I fear you don't understand what the goalposts are.

Which maybe why you persist on nit-picking about airborne kit when it has no relevance to the discussion, which was whether the average individual German soldier was better than the average individual Allied soldier.

Vis a vis the airborne, my point was that airborne units were better than leg units and therefore cannot be taken as the mean average. Do you disagree that the airborne was better than regular leg infantry?
Darktrooper
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Posted: Monday, November 12, 2007 - 02:11 PM UTC

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My Other Favorite myth is that ALL german soldiers were Nazi's

Oh, very far from the truth.



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If you mean members of the Nazi party, no, they weren't. But most German servicemen (and most of the civil population) truly believed what Hitler and the Nazis stood for -- ie racial superiority, Leibensraum, hatred of the Jews, etc (heck, most of Europe and the USA didn't really like Jews very much either).



I dont think you believe what you posted.

The german soldiers Nickname for the German Cross in Gold was "The opinion reflector," or their nickname for the Nazi Party pin was the "Brooch of Fear."

In the Wehrmacht only One Person in the unit, the Top Sergeant knew who was what religion and it wasnt anyone else's business who was what. The Wehrmacht had to forced to pledge fealty to Adolph Hitler. Ask A wehrmacht soldier what he fought for, it wasnt the Nazi Party, it was Germany.
spooky6
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Posted: Monday, November 12, 2007 - 06:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I dont think you believe what you posted.

The german soldiers Nickname for the German Cross in Gold was "The opinion reflector," or their nickname for the Nazi Party pin was the "Brooch of Fear."

In the Wehrmacht only One Person in the unit, the Top Sergeant knew who was what religion and it wasnt anyone else's business who was what. The Wehrmacht had to forced to pledge fealty to Adolph Hitler. Ask A wehrmacht soldier what he fought for, it wasnt the Nazi Party, it was Germany.



I do believe what I've posted, and I also do know what I'm talking about, because I've lived in Germany for several years and have spoken to a number of WW2 veterans from the Heer and Luftwaffe (some of whom are relaated to me by marriage).

Soldiers in every army have disparaging nicknames for their leaders and even medals and symbols of authority. It doesn't mean that they don't believe in that authority.

I have no idea what your point is about the top sergeant and religion. The majority German religious denomination during WW2 (and today) was Roman Catholicism, closely followed by Protestantism. Belief in the Nazi ideal and what it stood for had nothing to do with religion, and in fact one of the tools used by the Nazis to inflame the country against the Jews was the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.

The Wehrmacht in its entirety wasn't asked to swear allegience to Adolf Hitler -- just the Waffen-SS; the others took an oath to the state.

Of course no German soldier would have said that he was fighting for the Nazi Party (anymore than a modern US soldier would say he was fighting for the GOP), but Hitler & the Nazis (like all administrations) had made the party ideology indistinguishable from the national ideology. So if you asked the average German if he was fighting for the Nazis, he'd have said no, but if you asked him if he was fighting for "Leibensraum" and to remove Germany from the Communist/Jewish yoke, he'd have said yes.
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 08:03 AM UTC
OK guys, I've got a new one for you to chew on. Just to put a perspective on it, I am ex-Army. I live in an area where the vast majority of ex military is Marine. Of course to listen to them (and watch stuff on TV) you would think they won World War 2 all by themselves.

The myth I want to delve into involes the most sacred thing of all to the Marines....Iwo Jima. I just read this in the current issue of World War 2 magazine We have always read / been told that despite the horrific losses at Iwo, 26,000 casualties of which over 6800 were killed were justified because over 25,000 B-29 crewmens lives were saved. This last figure basd on 2,251 B-29's landing on Iwo times the 11 crewmen. It turns out that they counted everytime a B-29 landed there. The article points out that of these, 80 % were for routine refueling, and several hundred more were for pracice landings . Another large portion were minor engine erpairs. Another statistic pointed out was that 50 % or so of downed aircraft crew were rescued.

So here is the myth buster part. Iwo Jima was not necessary. There was no need to take the island as 1. B-29's switched to night bombing thereby eliminating the need for fighter escort, and 2. very few bombers that landed there would have crashed into the sea before making it back to the Marianna's. So it appears that Iwo was another Nimitz foul up like Pelilu. A pointless costly invasion. Iwo had no strategic value, it was not an area that could have been used to stage the Okinawa invasion and it posed no rear area threat as it hosted no major airbase. As the article points out the main beneftit was the Joe Rosenthal photo.

I expect to catch a lot of flak on this one from our Marine contingent. Bear in mind fellas I didn't write this article, but I think it speaks volumes.
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 08:46 AM UTC
Didn't the Marines only fight in the Pacific theater during WW2?
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:48 AM UTC
exactly...no Marines at D-day, Salerno, the Bulge, etc