History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Why so much interest in defeated powers?
aaronpegram
Visit this Community
Australian Capital Territory, Australia
Member Since: January 10, 2005
entire network: 137 Posts
KitMaker Network: 33 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 08:48 AM UTC
Hiya guys,

Im going to kick the proverbial hornet's nest here and ask what people's opinions are on the following:

Why do you thing there is so much interest (ie modelling, books, movies etc) on defeated powers? Why is there so much attention on say German and Japanese history? Do you think its a case of Sun Tzu's addage of 'know your enemy' in the aftermath, or is it a means of celebrating the heroic deeds of the victor?

Im interested in hearing peoples comments....

A.

jazza
Visit this Community
Singapore / 新加坡
Member Since: August 03, 2005
entire network: 2,709 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 08:59 AM UTC
My interest lies alot closer to the allied [auto-censored]nal but my guess on that would be that the German did produce some outstanding armor for its time. Not to mention some does have a bit of a grunty look and feel to it. Also the other guess i would make is that the likes of Tamiya and even Academy are companies that were on "the other side" being Japanese and Korean. It easier to acquire reference material of their own army than it is to cross the oceans for the allied references.

Im more fascinated by the Japan's warships however.
aaronpegram
Visit this Community
Australian Capital Territory, Australia
Member Since: January 10, 2005
entire network: 137 Posts
KitMaker Network: 33 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 09:01 AM UTC
I should also throw in the philosophical view that nobody wins in a war

A.
USArmy2534
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Member Since: January 28, 2004
entire network: 2,716 Posts
KitMaker Network: 531 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 09:23 AM UTC
First off, good question.

I honestly think that between the Axis powers, Germany gets 80% of the attention. I've heard various academic theories, like that Italy didn't and couldn't do much and that Japan and Germany didn't really care too much for each other and that they were a means to an end; I've even heard one of my professors suggest that there was/is a racial issue Americans (Caucasians) and Japanese (Asians) and that Americans didn't really hate their fellow Caucasian Germans. It can't say that I agree or disagree with it though, but right or wrong she (my professor) had a good case.

Anyway, I think that many people focus on Germany for a few reasons:

1: They were incredibly powerful. While I generally don't like to further what-ifs, if Germany hadn't made certain decisions, who knows where we'd be today. She had a powerful air force, navy, and highly profecient ground units. Defeating Germany was not considered impossible by the Allies, but rather a task that everyone knew would take a lot of lives and a long time to accomplish. Same goes to Japan. They were a tenacious enemy that didn't give up easily and lived in a society that practically worshiped the warrior spirit. And to those that study war, that is a characteristic that people look at almost in the hopes to replicate because a strong warrior spirit breeds good warriors.

2: I don't know how much this has been accepted internationally, but here in the US, our forces from that war have been called the Greatest Generation and are studied intensely. I think that within that research, like you said, "know your enemy" kind of plays on here and serves to give a larger picture to what the Allies countered.

3: Finally, and this is completely in an academic sense, I think that writing about Germany is simply easy. One of my professors, when discussing a topic for a Soviet military history paper asked me why I didn't want to write it on WWII. I replied that World War II has been written to death. Like Shakespeare, It is a challenge to find some thing new to write. Most academic writing is is simply one academic agreeing or disagreeing with another academic and listing the reasons why. Academic professors are "encouraged" to write (read: semi-unofficial job requirement). So they look at what they can write about and since most good historians attempt to look at the roots of the problem, essentially Germany in the case of WWII, then it is kind of easy to see where the writing comes from. As for interest, I am not so sure that - academically - it could be read as interest so much as that there really isn't all too much else available.


EDIT: I don't entirely believe that view that nobody wins in war. While no one may win, usually one side comes out for the better (don't confuse that with winning) WWII is a perfect example of this, given the boom of the '50s

Jeff
Zacman
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Member Since: January 27, 2006
entire network: 210 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My interest lies alot closer to the allied [auto-censored]nal but my guess on that would be that the German did produce some outstanding armor for its time. Not to mention some does have a bit of a grunty look and feel to it. Also the other guess i would make is that the likes of Tamiya and even Academy are companies that were on "the other side" being Japanese and Korean. It easier to acquire reference material of their own army than it is to cross the oceans for the allied references.

Im more fascinated by the Japan's warships however.


I think you will find that Korea fought on our side!
Zacman
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Member Since: January 27, 2006
entire network: 210 Posts
KitMaker Network: 109 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:37 AM UTC
I would have to disagree with you, there is more movies,.books etc writtern from an Allied prospective. History is always writtern by the winner!
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 08:53 PM UTC
Hi,
I, for one am glad to see this thread started.

Okay, first of all the German had better looking stuff than anybody else during the war. Second, things sound so regal and militaristically different in the German language. Third, why is so much attention paid to Napoleon and the Confederacy, they both had their butts handed to them. Fourth, Allies stuff is UGLY , all khaki and olive drab- BORING!

Just an opinion on my part, please take no offense.

Chris- Waffen-SS Aesthetic Society and Clique, Inc.
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: December 21, 2002
entire network: 7,772 Posts
KitMaker Network: 802 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:24 PM UTC
Greetings,

An interesting question, similar to Allied Troops v Axis Troops

Basically, I think that regarding Germany, it is the plethora of fascinating weapons/tactics/decisions they produced and made, and how many carried over to both sides of the Cold War.

Same for Japan, on a lesser scale. Both were resource-poor. Both took on the world. Both came close to fighting the Allies to a standstill.

As for "Nobody wins a war", I disagree. The Western Allies won WWII in that we defeated "Black Fascism". While many recognized Stalin's "Red Fascism" as the evil it turned out to be, many thought he was just misunderstood, and we must not overlook the strong socialist and even communist movements seething in the western democracys at the time. Sometimes "My enemy's enemy is my friend". We did defeat the Black Fascism of Nazism, Fascist Italy and Tojo's Japan. They were deemed the most dangerous at a time when crystal balls were in short supply. Much like today's War On Terror.

To quote myself in the above linked thread::


Quoted Text

I haven't read a fraction of your stuff--my poor eyes-- so at the risk of duplicating some of you, here is my input. Some of the statistics may not be 100% but I believe they are close. I will also avoid considering political exigency "what-ifs".

Things I've read:

Germany's Fallschirmjaegers were initially formed by recruiting experienced troops; NCOs were made privates. I don't recall if officers were reduced to NCOs. Thus, their paratroopers were all pretty experienced, motivated soldiers.

In a recent issue of Military History or a similar magazine, there was an article made up of a 1944 US Army survey of captured Germans, the survey was of Germans who were experienced fighting against the Soviets and Western Allies. The purpose was to see how they rated the US Army VS the Russians and the British, the strengths and weaknesses. It was a pretty interesting article. IIRC, the Germans feared the Red Army for the racial/cultural factor, but would rather fight them than the Western Allies because they were easier. They did not seem to find the American troops to be armatures, as so often depicted. Our problem was that the bulk of the US Army was green at the time of D-Day. Rommel or another highly regarded German remarked about the US troops 'no other troops were so bad at their first battle, and so good for their next.'

I read in the book Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War (postulate--the Allies only beat the Germans by overwhelming them) that man for man, throughout the war, whether attacking or defending, the German soldier inflicted more casualties than they received. True? I'll leave that for number-crunchers. FWIW: WWII Timelines, Maps, Statistics, Trivia, and Glossary

However, there is no denying that many US and UK forces went eye-to-eye with the Wehrmacht on equal terms (and often at a disadvantage) and beat them, at all stages of the war. The pre-war doubt that Western Democracy could produce warriors on par with Fascism turned out to be wrong.

Now, demographics. Populations & Casualties

The Wehrmacht started the war with a country of 69.3M people. Add Italy's 43.8M (I do not consider Germany's minor allies as I believe they turned out to be insignificant, or an actual detriment to Hitler's war) and Black Fascism attacked the world with a population of 113.1M people. With this they warred against 120M people of France's 41.7M and UK's 78M, totaling 137M if you include Holland and Belgium. Already the Axis was inferior in resources.

I do not know of any way to figure slave labor and the input of occupied countries, but after Greece fell, UK was practically alone until Barbarossa added Soviet Red Fascism's 168.5M people. With that the Axis were outnumbered 246.5M to 113M. The Soviet population's men of military age already outnumbered Germany's about 2.5 to 1.

Consider that after 1943 Germany lost most of Italy's 43M, and faced UK, USA and USSR total of 312.5M Allies (accounting for about 40% of USA directed against Japan) with 69M.

I think the fascination with Nazi Germany is that despite those numbers, and considering Germany really had no resources other than coal and wood, that they came close to succeeding with their war of conquest. By 1945 the UK was exhausted, Stalin was facing manpower shortages, and the USA experienced approximately 2/3 of her total casualties in the 9 months after D-Day.

Add to that the Nazi products of war. They created weapons of sheer genius and incredible stupidity, and employed many of both.

Also consider that much of what the Third Reich developed and perfected (original to them or not) was adopted by all sides for the Cold War.

I think this accounts for the popularity of German military subjects.

****
In the 1940 Blitzkrieg, both Franch and Britain, individually, had more AFVs than the WH. The average French tank had thicker armor and a more powerful gun. Yet the Panzerwaffe trounced them both. Not always by nose-to-nose shootouts, but by superior tactics and employment borne of superior doctrine.

Same for the Royal Tank Rgmts in North Africa.

Definitely against the Red Army. How could it be that the Soviet armored units, increasingly equipped with the excellent T-34 which [at normal combat ranges] was almost impervious to the fire of the KwK 50mm of the PzKfw III (the most numerous AFV until 1943) were defeated by the WH?

This is valid in that units with inferior equipment and numbers have demonstrated time and again, that properly lead/trained/motivated, they can defeat units that are superior--on paper.



BM2
#151
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: November 19, 2005
entire network: 1,361 Posts
KitMaker Network: 327 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,
I, for one am glad to see this thread started.

Okay, first of all the German had better looking stuff than anybody else during the war. Second, things sound so regal and militaristically different in the German language. Third, why is so much attention paid to Napoleon and the Confederacy, they both had their butts handed to them. Fourth, Allies stuff is UGLY , all khaki and olive drab- BORING!

Just an opinion on my part, please take no offense.

Chris- Waffen-SS Aesthetic Society and Clique, Inc.


yeah I can see Hitler and Speer standing at the plant with Henschel and Porsche and saying - It's just not pretty enough. I have noted after 30 odd years in this hobby that the younger modelers tend to have a fasination with german armor - due probaly to the Tamyia stuff in the 70's -80's. I have noticed a misplaced admiration of some of the german figures of the time as well -Micheal Wittman and the waffen SS- see some examples below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzabotto_massacre
Keep in mind that the Waffen SS was run by a freak - Henrich Himmler who was responsible for the deaths of 6- 12 millon unarmed civilians
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: December 21, 2002
entire network: 7,772 Posts
KitMaker Network: 802 Posts
Posted: Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

...the Confederacy, they both had their butts handed to them.



Eventually. Recall that the South had 1/5 the population of the North--including slaves--about 1/10 the railroads and industry, yet still beat the North time and again in stinging defeats. The North should have been able to run over the rebels by 1862. It was leadership in the South.


Quoted Text

I have noticed a misplaced admiration of some of the german figures of the time as well -Micheal Wittman and the waffen SS...
Keep in mind that the Waffen SS was run by a freak - Henrich Himmler who was responsible for the deaths of 6- 12 millon unarmed civilians



No excuse for them. We can debate who was fighting for what over and over. Why so many Germans fought so hard for Nazi Germany (or just for Germany) will make a completely new super-thread. For those interested in Soviet stuff, consider the communists murdered an estimated 100 million between 1920-today. Does that tarnish the interest in their military?

Stuka pilot Rudel was an unrepentant Nazi to the day he died, perhaps even Skorzeny. Was Wittman? I don't know. But in the annals of armed conflict, all pulled off incredible feats of military prowess.
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:11 AM UTC
Hello again,
I see some people out in the world do not agree with my opinion. Oh well!
I have never had a problem with others seeing things not the same way as me.
John and Fred, why so negative? To me, history is a hobby and so is modelling. I did not get into it to have arguments and have people rip on everything I say. You do not know me, if you did you would not say such demeaning things. Yes, I read Felix Steiner's biography, he did say Sweat saves Blood. That was due to his training methods. Do you think I say things for my own hearing?
Okay, that said, SS uniforms are aesthetic pleasing to me and that is all. Don't give me this Nazi crap, it is well known that they were as bad as the Soviets. And we are not innocent either, ever heard of Manzanar and other concentration camps we put the isei and nisei into. Or with our expansion west, killing the Native American and putting them on reservations.
I know my history. Let us leave it their.

Did not mean to rant, but do not say callous things unless you know me. OKAY!

Chris
spooky6
Visit this Community
Sri Lanka
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 12:37 PM UTC
In the end, to a modeller, Ww2 German figs offer much more variety (camouflage, kit, weapons) than the Allied ones. Same with the Tanks and AFVs. It's not JUST the bad boy factor (if it was, why so few Japanese fans?), but there is a certain element of coolness in evil isn't there? Why else would Darth Vader be the most popular character in the Star Wars movies? Drawing parallels between atrocities and modelling is downright silly, guys. OK, I can see the point if someone wanted to model Hitler, Stalin, or Himmler, but there isn't much of that amongst modellers. Wittman, Skorzeni, and other Germans cut rather dashing figures, fighting against the odds, looking like professionals, and that's an instant attraction. Sure, they had their Allied equivalents, like Sterling and Wingate, but it somehow isn't the same.
aaronpegram
Visit this Community
Australian Capital Territory, Australia
Member Since: January 10, 2005
entire network: 137 Posts
KitMaker Network: 33 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 01:21 PM UTC
Hey Spooky,

Thanks for your reply. In order to swing the conversation away from the raging debate, how is twentieth century German history taught in Germany? I would be very interested in hearing how both wars are interpreted, learned, and both stories told in Germany.

Cheers,

Aaron.
BM2
#151
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: November 19, 2005
entire network: 1,361 Posts
KitMaker Network: 327 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 06:20 PM UTC
Hey –don’t get all bent out of shape because someone disagrees with you – I know my history as well, heres the FACTS:
The Waffen SS was declared Criminals at Nuremberg.
Felix Stiener spent the last years of his life writing apologist books.
The Waffen SS were political – They were hand picked NAZI.
The Waffen SS were in charge of the concentration camps.
As for the quote – Stiener was probably using Rommel’s line – just google the quote and see what pops up- it has been known as a Rommel quote for a long time. I documented every thing I said in my response with a link to supporting documents – can you do this? You cannot take the study of history personal it is based on facts – things that have happened not on what may happen –Micheal Wittman may have been a good person – The record of his actions and associations certainly don’t lead in that direction. As for your personal preferences – you can like all the German Milataria you want to – I could care less you obviously seem to like things German “pak 40” just don’t confuse your preference with fact based reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Steiner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERwaffen.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

Along with the above quoted sources I have studied WW2 and all the parties involved since high school – I graduated high school in 1979
I was fortunate to study under DR. DeMarcus- (Ph.D., University of Cincinnati, 1988-
(19th/20th Century Germany; Holocaust) while I attended the University of Northern Kentucky-
My Grandfather was at Bastogne and Malmedy massacrehttp://www.lonesentry.com/gi_stories_booklets/84thinfantry/

As I stated Your opinion is yours and you have a right to it – remember when you make a statemaent on a forum there may be those who don’t share your views.
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 08:48 PM UTC
Hi again,
Thanks David! You said it very well.
No John, it was the Totenkopfverbande under Theodor Eicke, not the Waffen-SS.

I do agree that the uniforms and vehicles of the Wehrmacht were the best looking and most aesthetically pleasing of WW2. AND, they influenced military designs for the last 61 years. Everything from uniforms, helmets, tanks & APC's, aircraft and rifles.

Right now I am in the process of doing 2 different projects:
1. Painting winter SS Wiking Division figures.
2. Building, painting and displaying German WW2 weaponry, from rifles to howitzer.

both in 1/35.

I have learned to detach myself from any political "falderall" of past things and take these things on a surface level. What evil men have done in the past is well documented. I do not forget this, because who can, but when someone sees something from a different point of view it is not for anyone to judge. Anyone can find anything evil in all points of historical events, you do not need a PhD to do that.
I have read books by Marc Rikmonspoel and Mark Yerger on the Waffen-SS. They are scholarly, well thought and apolitical. Which is why I enjoyed them. The rest is history, and I accept that.

This, I hope is a satisfactory addition to my previous post.

Chris- Waffen-SS uniform painter and his imaginary friends.
BM2
#151
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: November 19, 2005
entire network: 1,361 Posts
KitMaker Network: 327 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 09:33 PM UTC
Hmmm-Totenkopfverbande
The original cadre of the Waffen-SS came from the Freikorps and the Reichswehr along with various right-wing paramilitary formations. Formed at the instruction of Adolf Hitler in 1933, the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler was the first formation of what was to become the Waffen-SS. When the SA was rendered powerless in the Night of the Long Knives, many ex-SA men requested transfer to the SS, swelling its ranks and resulting in the formation of several new units including the SS-Verfügungstruppe, SS-VT (to become the SS Division Das Reich) and the SS-Totenkopfverbände, SS-TV, the concentration camp guard unit (to become the SS Division Totenkopf).

sure seems like a division of the Waffen SS to me- Regardless I will agree that they were consumate soldiers and they have made an effect on modern equiptment and tactics- you could argue that they influenced the formation of sprcial units like the Green Berets. The only point of dis-agreement lies in what I personally feel is a revisionist view of history to try to seperate the SS from Himmler and Hitler- until conscription near the end of the war these were hard core party members.
GunTruck
Visit this Community
California, United States
Member Since: December 01, 2001
entire network: 5,885 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,405 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:03 PM UTC
At the risk of stepping into hot waters - I want to interject a couple of thoughts here on the original post.

When I attended college, we went through similar discussions - but not from a Military History & Technology slant. When I give tours at the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation (almost weekly) I talk about the tanks and AFV's in the collection from a social and economic standpoint to make them more relevant to the people we're escorting through the collection. Why M4 Sherman tanks are so tall, why German AFV's didn't employ rubber track shoes, what "optics" and "muzzle velocity" means, etc. A tank or truck pressed into military service is so much more than a massive amount of steel and materials, and in a two-hour tour you can paint a good picture of what the world was like and the context in which they were created.

Spouting facts and figures for a Soccer Mom or a youth isn't relevant without an equal frame of reference. Passion and feelings that spurred these creations forward, are more relevant - because those endure and evolve over time long after the metal rusts away on some lonely plain.

I lean towards emotion as the reason why some military modeling subjects are more popular than others. What thought(s) the subject brings up in the observer...

America may be a younger society than European culture(s) and others around the globe, but not that much different. Ever wonder why people flock to a car accident or train wreck? Ever wonder why people don't tend to remember the loser of the Super Bowl - until the next season begins and every other fan out there wants the winner knocked off their pedestal? It's because of the emotion that is invoked when the subject comes up. It's not simply about "winners" and "losers".

As Chris offered, Nazi Germany's uniforms were attractive. They were. He didn't state that as a testimony and endorsement of the ideology behind them and what inspired them - he just said he liked the way they looked. Same applies to WW II German AFV's - they are astethically pleasing to many scale modelers for various reasons - but again not an endorsement of the ideology. But, without understanding the emotion behind the thought, the discussion rapidly degenerates to questions of ideology. It's like asking what religion a person practices.

It is very difficult to separate the simple thread and cloth and steel and paint from the emotion invoked when the subject matter arises. The stronger the emotion behind the subject - the more passionate the "support" of said in these kind of discussions. I think a fascinating and enlightening thread would come from exploration of where these emotions come from, and how they might propagate as time marches on. What, if anything, makes these emotions stick longer than others?

If Nazi Germany had won the Second World War - would their AFV's still be considered "cool" and "fashionable" in scale modeling circles around the world?

In the same vein, would Allied AFV's suddenly become "popular" because they represented the losing side, though quite capable and were produced in greater numbers? Would Olive Drab suddenly become "cool"?

Would the exploits of the African-American 761st Tank Battalion and the Japanese-American 442nd Infantry be better known and celebrated as outstanding combat unit examples on the losing side?

The answers might be surprising...

Jim
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:22 PM UTC
Hello,
Jim, you hit the nail on the head. Aesthetics is all I care about, not ideology.
The trimmings and trappings of uniforms and weapons wins out over what people in reality were. I have no political bent, just a love of modelbuilding. Pure and simple, to put it all in a nutshell.
Also, I do not discuss 2 things, politics and religion. Causes too many fights. Although I am a conservative and a Christian, that does not influence what I build or what I read in the military or historical vein. Because, I also build Soviet figures and armor, both WW2 and more modern. Also, because I like the looks of the T-34's and modern Soviet APC's(BMD's, BMP's and BTR's). It is that simple, nothing complex or difficult to think about. Just simple aesthetics.

In conclusion, ideology never enters what I read or what I build. Just love of building.

Chris- aesthete modeller extraordinare
JPTRR
Staff MemberManaging Editor
RAILROAD MODELING
#051
Visit this Community
Tennessee, United States
Member Since: December 21, 2002
entire network: 7,772 Posts
KitMaker Network: 802 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

John and Fred, why so negative?



Hi Chris,

I do not think that all you wrote was directed towards me. If some was then consider that I was not being negative. In fact, if I was contrary to anyone on this thread, it was John's assertions. Go back and read who I quoted and what I said.


Quoted Text

To me, history is a hobby and so is modelling. I did not get into it to have arguments and have people rip on everything I say.



I concur.


Quoted Text

You do not know me, if you did you would not say such demeaning things.



I don't think you were addressing me but if you were, I said nothing demeaning to anyone.


Quoted Text

Don't give me this Nazi crap, it is well known that they were as bad as the Soviets.



Again, reread my comments and you will see that I was indicating there is nothing wrong with modeling the subjects of a dubious regimen. Modeling Nazi subjects does not, in any way, mean one has Nazi sympathies in the least.


Quoted Text

And we are not innocent either, ever heard of Manzanar and other concentration camps we put the isei and nisei into.



Different time, different circumstances. Not relevant.


Quoted Text

Or with our expansion west, killing the Native American and putting them on reservations.



Again, different time, different circumstances, and the Americans who were pushing across the west in Manifest Destiny were mainly Europeans who were almost fresh off of Ellis Island.. Not relevant.



Quoted Text

I know my history. Let us leave it their.

Did not mean to rant, but do not say callous things unless you know me. OKAY!



Personally, I read nothing callous.

All the best,

Fred
BM2
#151
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: November 19, 2005
entire network: 1,361 Posts
KitMaker Network: 327 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:46 PM UTC
Hi gunnie - good points! I tend to agree with your thoughts on the general appearence of German armor and uniforms - and you make valid points - I imagine part of my reaction may be due to the fact that apologists have been re-writing the history of the Waffen SS for so long now. As a student of European history you cannot ignore the impact that the SS had on the world!- to simply try to remove the Waffen SS from the rest seems un-warranted. I am not stating anyone's opinion is wrong - I just have my own.They are so many instances of people who in the midst of world war 2 maintained thier honor and conducted themselves as soldiers not butchers, -Rommel , Donitz, Jodl,Galland,Seydlitz-Kurzbach, and so many more.
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:07 PM UTC
Hi,
Sorry Fred, maybe I misread what you said. It just seemed like a slam.
My apology.

I do not have a college degree, but I am considered very intellegent. ADHD does play havoc with my concentration, but I travel on.

I enjoy a good conversation about history. I try never to allow emotion into the mix. I see some have done extensive study and research on Nazism and WW2, it makes for a better discussion. This is one of those areas where objectivity is difficult, and I realize that. Believe you me, to detach yourself like I have done is not easy. But to be a good researcher on this subject, emotion has to be set aside.

Yes, the Germans and Axis Powers lost WW2 and deservedly so. I leave it at that. My interest is in little pieces plastic and resin.

Chris- let us be friends
MasterGuns
Visit this Community
Missouri, United States
Member Since: April 09, 2005
entire network: 11 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:11 PM UTC
What a bunch of road apples! When I was a youngster I thought everything German was the greatest thing since canned beer. But I am much older now, have been around the block more than once, have graduated from college, raised a family, acquired grandchildren, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve after thirty (30) years, and acquired the taste of bottled beer (preferably German or Czech). What does this have to do with the original thread? Absolutely nothing! We as modelers build what strikes our fancy amongst what is available from the manufacturers, or what we are capable of creating from scratch. Who cares what our ideolgies are? Just build and support the hobby.

Semper Fi - MasterGuns
Pak_40
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Member Since: August 12, 2003
entire network: 392 Posts
KitMaker Network: 96 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:19 PM UTC
Hi Ron,
You say it better than I. My interest, as I have said, is purely aesthetic.
Yes the Axis are an interest of mine, basically for the uniforms and weaponry. That IS my interest in the defeated Germans of WW2. Simple, no more and no less.

Chris- I hope I was clear- ( but I like a good verbal scrap now and again)
MasterGuns
Visit this Community
Missouri, United States
Member Since: April 09, 2005
entire network: 11 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:34 PM UTC
I too, like a verbal jousting match, from time to time. So how many of your Schnapps powered contraptions do you plan on bringing down to Kansas City for the 2006 IPMS National Convention? There will be plenty of room for armor / soft-skin vehicle models of all armies (and Marines) tp be displayed for the competition. Come on down August 2nd thru the 5th. Contact me, or check out the Convention web-site which is:
IPMSUSA2006.ORG

Semper Fi - MasterGuns
BM2
#151
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: November 19, 2005
entire network: 1,361 Posts
KitMaker Network: 327 Posts
Posted: Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 11:56 PM UTC
I admit I enjoy lively debate- no surprise there Modelling historical subjects does tend to get somewhat political due to the subject matter. I did not mean to hurt anyone's feeling - sorry it that's the case. When I build a specific subject I enjoy learning the context it was in-
case in point - many moons ago I was building a P-51 red tail and I got into a discussion of the Tuskegee airman with a self professed "expert" - he had never heard of Ploiesti and did not know that the Red tails never lost a bomber they were escorting, When I inquired on where he got his information he admitted he had seen one TV show about the Airmen. It's all in context I suppose - in the end build what you like - I think you have the right to build anything you like just I have the right to build that which I enjoy. It's all about fun and again I'm not demeaning anyones chioces or stating that I know more than anybody else- the only thing I know for sure is there is always more to learn and I welcome the chance to have "lively discussion" with my model building compadres!