Hi again Ron,
Thanks for the kind words and for your service to out country .

I wish I had the vacation time to come down. I promised the wife we'd go to the Black Hills and Mt. Rushmore next year, so I am letting my time accrue 'til then.



Okay, that said, back onto the topic at hand. I have said in previous posts that I have been modelling for about 30 years. I have seen a lot of model stuff over that period of time. From Tamiya's old PzGren kit for the terrible Hanomag kit they did to the just released Dragon "Last Battle, Austria 1945". The German kits just seemed to attract me more than the other nationalities, AND! that has continued to this day. That I hope puts to light some of my reasons for building German. As for the SS part, I saw the old Squadron/Signal book on the Waffen-SS in Action and thought to myself what great looking uniforms they wore. So, over the years I have collected more books so I could do research on how to reproduce such fine looking uniforms in plastic and paint.
With this also has come a love of modelling for modelling's sake, because of the research I have done.

Nothing political, just the love of the hobby.

Research makes for good modelling .

Chris- still crazy as a loon #:-)

That is certainly a possibility! I am sure my thinking is affected by My Grandfather who was in the 84th inf. at Bastonge and my own military service in the Navy

Consider it so, Chris.

As to the original question, I can't always state why I am interested in the opposition.

The Germans are interesting because of the mystique of their previously recounted aesthetics, their innovations still seen in today's militarys, the stunning successes they achieved against what should have delieved, on paper, shattering defeats against them...

The Japanese are interesting for the same reasons. Also, the Japanese for their variety of aircraft, the exotic appearance of their ships, and an army (more than any other major power) armed with weapons little removed from turn of the century.

Then, there is always the human trait of being fascinated with what scares us--either what was and is known, or what could be and as yet unknown.

In the past year I have read the following books about the German WWII war machine Tigers In The Mud, Luftwaffe Aces, Grenadiers (bio of "Panzer Meyer"), Infantry Aces, Panzer Aces II and part of Panzer Aces, and Armored Battles of the Waffen-SS, 1943-45. I have read several memiors of WH and SS officers and men. Prior to that I read several books on American WWII warriors such as Recon Scout, To Fly and to Fight, Raising Havoc and --most recommended--Jimmy Stewart: Bomber Pilot. I have to admit that my modeling interests seem to follow what I am reading at the time.

Back to trying to build something...

Fred

As for me I would have to say that my interest stems from the Germany/Japan of WWII having such a remarkably different culture and society than we do now. My particular interest in Germany is that it had a wide range of vehicles with innumerable paint schemes that were technologically top-notch. In addition the amazing odds and battles that my countrymen faced fighting against these nations makes me appreciate the sacrifices they made.

Hi,
Now this is more like it. Good discussion without the nastiness.

Okay, that said. I was reading the 2 part Waffen-SS Commanders books by Mark Yerger. It had some great photos of senior officer uniforms going all the way back to the early Standarte times of the early 1930's. Now that is something to try and reproduce. The US Army had nothing regal like that. Just khaki and brown, kinda plain. Oh well!

Chris- soups to nutz knowledge of practically nothing

Greetings all,

I thought I had added a post earlier but must have cocked it up so here goes again.

I think it because it helps us have an understanding of why things happened. For me the interest is personal, because both the 1st and 2nd WW changed the fabrique of British society. Just like the moon landings and the assissanation of JFK and the Beatles changed the way we look at life.

Looking at the loosers also helps us justify the actions of our own society. Who in their right mind would think that dropping an A Bomb on a country made any sense at all - then we look at the history and see that it was either that or loose thousands more troops invading Japan. History helps rationalise otherwise unrational events. The RAF blew the heart out of German, imagine if that was done to day, all hell would break loose, but no one batted an eye lid during WW2 because the perception was that they deserved it. Neither did anyone shy away from sending food parcles to the Germans after the war had ended, because people understood about suffering.

It might well have something to do with understanding your enemy, but more relevant is being aware of what happened and trying to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

The tactics applied by the Germany in the early stages of the war captured everyones imagination - lighting war - all over, done and dusted in a few weeks. After the carnage of WW1 this change stuck. Never mind that it was a British idea in the first place it gave the Germanys an image brilliance that they didin't deserve. It's easy to forget in the colour of things how evil the NAZI's were, probably only topped by Stalin and his gang in terms of cruality and barbarism.

However, understanding their motives and so called reasoning should I hope make us more prepared to recognise and defeat such evil men in the future because it is sad to say it is the nature of the beast to dominate and kill our own kind. The 20th centurary was a centuary of war and unfortunately the 21st looks like being similar, be it all that the beast is now wearing different spots, the same evil aims apply - political and cultural domination of other races to one sad way of thinking.

There has been comment here as to why Axis is more popular than Allied, it's said their suff is cool - I disagree, they have some great kit but no more so than the Allies, in fact the best German tank design they got from the Russains. It's said their uniforms are more interesting, this is also not true just an individual point of view. The Germans had good equipment but it was over engineered; quanity and not quality won the war, that and a lot of courage and sacrifice of ordinary men and women.

The simple fact is there are more Axis kits to choose from.

As modellers we cover a subject that has emotions attached to it, like it or not. From a military history no one could doubt the effectiveness of early German tactics and admire the qualaties of their fighting troops but it must also be acknowledged that these same troops took part in some of the worst outrages against man that have ever been committed. Thank God they were defeated, but let us not forget the millions who lost their lives at the whim of a mad man, not the courage of thoses who fought to defeat such evil.

We are fortunate to live in a free society so we can model what we want, and that's just great. The reason we can do this is because the humble Sherman in it's drab OD and the mighty T 34 in all it's rought and ready design coupled with some magnificient aircraft blew the crap out of a very evil regime.

Our history defines who we are, what we believe and value. Sometimes freedom comes at a high price, in fact it could be said that the loss of one life is just as precious as the loss of 200, but losses we will continue to suffer because that are and always will be those who despise the values we hold dear, those whos lust for power is so great that they will trample on anyone who gets in their way, those who care little about their fellow human beings and those who it might be said are pure evil in their intent.

We tend to think of the start of WW2 as being 1940, but it probably started back in 1937 when Japan invaded China much with the same ideas that Hitler had about lesser peoples.

So guys build what you want, as many of them as pleases you and enjoy the hobby, but spare a thought for those who had to man and fight in these machines of death and underatand a little about the why they found themselves in that position.

Cheers

Al

The Nazi's really did know how to where leather!

Hi,
To the last 2 posts: SO!

As I have stated, I am apolitical when it comes to model building. Whatever you think is okay to me. A plethora of opinions is what makes our hobby interesting.
Germany lost the war, did some horrible things, but that won't stop me from building representations of their stuff. All sides did bad things during the war, we still build Panthers, Shermans and T-34's. The Panther part is what I am interested in. Pure aesthetics.

Okay, with that said, the Waffen-SS still fascinates me.

I do have 3 T-34/85's and a Sherman M4 in my stash.

Chris-"....and the band played on."

I'am glad you mentioned "bad things" this is one of the biggest misconceptions when dealing with ww2, you will find that the Russian Army killed far more civillians during WW2 than Germany, yet information about this seems to be over looked. I'am not saying the Nazis were saints, but why is this Russian killings overlooked.

Hi Mark,

No doubt that Stalin was one mean SOB. A lot of what he did got over looked because of the secret nature of the Soviet Union as it was up until the fall of the Berlin Wall. There were always rumors but it's only now that some of the tradegies are coming to light. The true figure of Russian civillians and troops killed in the war may well never be known but the Russians lots millions in the fighting (I've heard figures of 29 million mentioned) and then had more misery heaped upon them by Uncle Joe.

At wars end, he immediately deported all those who had been captured as he refused to recognise that any Russian would allow him/her self to be captured. When the Germans captured his son they offered to trade him for some high ranking German Generals - Stalin said he didn't have a son and a few days later his son was shot 'while trying to escape'!!!!

Neither the NAZI's nor the Russians did bad things, they did terrible things, crimes against the very nature of humanity, uncivilised and barbaric in the same was the Japanese treated their conquest of China and the POWs. I've know about stuff the Russians did for years so the information is out there if people can be bothered to look.

Chris,

If you apolitical and only interested in the aesthetics of the kits then why bother to post in a 'History Forum' that is talking about the reality of war and it's aftermath. No one's saying here that you shouldn't build what you want, I build German kits I just don't believe in glorifying certain parts of their Armed Forces who's actions disgust and sicken me.

Any credability the Waffen SS have as a fight force, and they were considered to be a highly effective troops, is tained and stained by the blood of milions who were butchered either on the battle field or in the camps. One reason they fought so hard particularly on the Eastern Front was that they knew the Russions would take no prisoners after the crimes that had committed in Russia. I'm interested and facinated by the History of the Third Rich but I'm also not blind to what they did. If I used an SS kit in any of my builds it would be for historical reasons and not because I think they are cool.

Getting back to topic, another reason that their is an interest in the defeated powers is because WW1 and WW2 were the greatest conflicts in the history of man, so it's natural for people to want to study the reasons behind those conflicts and then we link in again to 'lighting war' etc, etc. Sorry I don't have the definative answer to the original question but then again probably no one does.

People have always been facinated by war and conquest whether it is Alexander the Great or the Roman Empire or the American Civil War and probably always will be. It's the winners who get to wright the history though!!!

Cheers all

Al

Hi Alan,
Well, first of all I thought this was a modelling website. So I tied my love of model building with a interest in Germany and the Waffen-SS on purely an aesthetic level.
I did not think one had to have a reason for being interested in losers of WW2, except for the fact that I liked the looks of some uniforms.
As I have stated, I do not consider politics when I build or study something. I detach myself from things I read, lest they get me angry.

That said, WW2 Europe fascinates me. I even have "Triumph of the Will" on tape. Just for pure study, nothing more complicated then that.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I suppose most of use are facinated in one way or another by WW2 which is why we are all mad model builders.

Have fun, the new Dragon Smart Kits look interesting and there is certainely no shortage of subjects to model from the Axis side.

Cheers

Al

Doesn't make everyone in it a criminal just because the accusers say so. The 'evidence' gathered on the infamous Malmedy Massacre was extracted under coercian and at times by torture of German SS POWs. The outcry when these interrogations came to light was the reason why the accused officers and men had their death sentences commuted and all were realeased by the '50s.




Not quite. The SS (of which the Waffen SS was a part) was political, but from about '43 onwards had many conscriopts, and by the end of the war they formed the majority. As with conscription everywhere, draftees rarely haave a choice of branch of service.




They weren't. The SS was in charge. Invalided Waffen SS troops who were no longer fit for the front were often posted or volunteered to the camps. camp guard also volunteered for front time, and the Totenkopf Division was formed out of Totenkopf camp guards. There was a lot of exchange (for instance, Mengel was a former Wiking officer), but the Waffen SS didn't run the camps.

Finally, Wikipedia isn't the greatest history source.

[quote]how is twentieth century German history taught in Germany?/quote]

Tough question to analyse, Aaron. For the past 50 years there's been no ambiguity about the war years. The Nazis were evil and everything they did was evil. No saving grace. Most high school students are not taught much about battles or the detailed military history (dates, generals, etc). However, walk into a bookshop and check out the military section and you'll find piles of books on WW2 military history (from a German perspective), weapons & kit, the Waffen SS, and more like biographies of Peiper, Rommel, etc. History channels too have lots of WW2 programmes. There was one on Canaris just this week, and last month I saw one about the Bulge.

This is my view as a non-German living here.

I read some where that the russians captured by the Germans in the first campain when released by the Russians, in 45 were put in camps in Russia untill stalins death, poor bastards!

Hi Mark,

Yip, Stalin viewed anyone who had been captured as tainted and shipped them all off to the camps in Russia where many died. The Russian prisoners through they were being freed from capativity in Germany but just got imprisoned again back in Russia.

Most of the German 6th Army who surrendered didn't return either, they either died on the way to the camps or in them, worked to death in harsh conditions just like the Russian political prisoners.

Basically anyone Stalin didn't like got the chop, the NKVD had quotas to meet in terms of killing and deporting different ethnic groups of people - so many teachers, so many managers, and so on. Life for the Russians at wars end was anything but pleasant. If memory serves me correctly he killed off all of those party members who had helped and supported him so that there could be no threat to his power. A few got lucky and got sent to the camps instead. His personal family were not exempt either, some of them were killed and imprisoned as best I can remember.

The irony is that without Russian participation in the war it is unlikely if Hitler could have been defeated by the West. Imagine all those crack German Divisions that were wasted in Russia guarding the Atlantic Wall. The Allies would probably never have got ashore. That's why the campaign in Italy, the forgotten war, was so important. It tied down lots of German troops/divisions that otherwise could have been used on either the Eastern or Western front. Without the Russians their might well have been an A Bomb attack on Germany just as their was on Japan.

The British always tried to make Hitler think that they would land in Norway, so he stationed lots of troops there that again never really played any part in the final battles. There was lots of deception and intelligence stuff goijng on all the time to try and keep the Germans guessing what the Allies were up to. All the German agents that landed in Britain were captured they were given a straight choice; become double agents or get shot. That simple, many of them turned and were used very effectively by the British to pass on false and misleading information - some were decorated by Hitler in their absence for services to the Reich, something that always makes me laugh.

Cheers

Al

Hi,
I think we are getting a bit sidetracked here.
The query was, " Why are we interested in the defeated powers of WW2?"

I have stated why I am interested. What would yours be?

Modelling Waffen-SS figures in mine.

Chris- Pea-Pattern camo is my friend

Hi Chris,

Not side tracked mate, just answering Mark's question.

I've already given some ideas as to why this might be so.

From a personal point of view I'm more interested in the 'whole package' than I am in the individual nations who were defeated, they just form part of the overall picture of the conflict. My interest lies in why it all started and how the Allies finally won, therefore I need to look at the 'enemy' to understand what the Allies were up against and how they overcame all the problems and setbacks they encountered, from poor tank design to the logistics of the D Day landings to the quality and make up of the troops on both sides. This includes looking at the battles, commanders and politics invloved on both sides.

If you relate this question to modelling and not to history then as far as I'm concerned it a matter of kit availability. There simple are lots more Axis kits than Allied kits and I don't really want to go down that road as it's been talked about to death and I joined this post because it a history post and not a modelling post.

Cheers

Al

Hi Alan,
True, you are correct that this is a history thread. Maybe I was too narrow in my focus here. Be that as it may, I still think Germany provides some interesting subjects for building. Whether it be something objective or subjective, that is left to the historians point of view.
I, as an American, do not feel the impact of the war like a European would. So, I cannot see any impact that it would have on a German, Frenchman, Pole or Englishman. Which is why I have more an antiseptic or detached view of the conflict and devastation caused by the Nazis. If it seems like I'm a little callous, I apologize for that, that is not my intention. Also, WW2 ended 12 years before I was born, so I did not experience it first hand. All my knowledge of WW2 has come from books, relatives and and veterans.

Chris

Hi Chris,

No problem, everyone sees things from a different perspective. I think the Germans have unlimited interesting subjects to model, but then again I think that for the Allies as well. I prefer the Allied side because I feel connected to that side of the history more so than the German side and also because just as in the war we're under represented in terms of kits and figures so in a way it's even more of a challenge to put something together.

I still happily model German subjects but since I started again my focus had been on trying to imporve my skill and be a bit more thorough in my research and detail. For that I've concentrated on finding out more specific details about various units and campaings of the British Forces starting with my old regiment.

I consider myself only a novice when I see the standard of modelling here but we all have to start somewhere. I enjoy the history of both WWs and hearing what others think because there is such a wealth of knowledge on this site. I believe I have a reasonable grasp of the conflict and a fairly decent understanding of the various parts of the campaigns. You kinda need a broad perspective because the logistics of the thing are so vast. I've been interested in the history since I was a child and I saw The World At War on a Saturday afternoon when I was about 12/13, maybe even before then as I palyed with the old Airfix kits that came in a plastic bag when I was even younger.

Because this was a history forum I approached the question from a different angle. If you accept that our history shapes who we are then understanding the conflict from a broader perspective is important, especially from a European angle because it changed and shaped the society I live in today in dramatic and amazing ways. Some would say for the better and some for the worst.

If you had relatives in the war then it's also part of you. If you look at the history of America she was dead set against getting envolved in another European War and after the First World War who could blame her. It took a long time for America to realise that what was happening wasn't going to pass them by. Even though her interests lay more in the Pacific Theatre it was acttually Hitler who solved the British problem of getting Americans involved in the war by declaring war on America after the Japanese attacked at Pearl Harbour. Own goal for Mr Hitler there, as Britain had been standing alone against German for what 3/4 years and desperately need some help.

I think talking about the conflict is good because so much stuff that comes out in flims etc is factually wrong or has been changed to suit the target audience. Certainely both Britain and America played big part in the defeat of the Axis powers but truthfully it was probably the Russians who contributed the most .

Anyway, just some more thoughts, they may be right, or they maybe wrong.

Cheers

Al

Thanks for your reply Alan,
One reason "Why so much interest in defeated powers", maybe due to the fact that the so called defeated powers quickly became allies in the new struggle, even before the dust had setteled plans were being made to bring these defeated powers into allied controll or influence in the cold war against the Soviets. just a thought make what you will of it!

Hi Mark,

That's quite possible, there was certainely a need to 'bring them on side' in the New World Order that emerged after the war.

Cheers

Al

You could see in the case with Germany, as early as Aug 44, pro-Nazi's Intelligence agents were being removed from the Balkans ahead of Soviet army. The U.S was able to remove Eastern European intelligence files and Nazi intelligent officers(before the soviets could get them), concealed in a train load of American P.O.W, who were being quickly evacuated from the Balkans, nilly all the 750 Amercian P.O.W had one or both legs amputated at the knee by their Balkan captors, solely for the purpose of keeping them immobile.
Before ww2 had ended in Europe, you can see signs of the creation of the "Iron Curtain" and splits starting to emerge in the western allies towards the soviets, and the beging of the "New World Order".

Hi Mark,

That's a pretty horrific story, I hadn't heard about that before, do you have a reference for it?

I think at first the Americans thought they could 'do business' with Uncle Joe, but Churchill had different ideas, his 'Iron Curtain decending across Europe' speech show his thinking fairly early on.

It was sad that the reason Britain went to war, namely Poland, got such a bad deal in the final settlement, at least they finally got their freedom when the Iron Curtain finally crumbled. Unfortunately Britain didn't really have much of a say at the end of the war, both America and Russia had emerged as 'Super Powers' and things had changed.

Cheers

Al

I always believed Churchill had coined the" Iron curtain" phrase, I think i even quoted it in an modern history exam in high school years back. Churchill merely embellished and exploited it. It's a Nazi phrase fist used by Count Lutzschwerin Von Krosigk, who was the German Foreign Minister.