Hi Armorama members.
I saw Black hawk down yesterday. I think that the movie was really bad, actually the most american patriot film I ever seen! The only message the movie gave me was "America is best" and "God bless America". Anyone who agree to me, that the movie was too much "America"?
/ Jamal
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Black hawk down
User_789
Member Since: June 09, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 22, 2002 - 11:03 PM UTC
MSGsummit
Member Since: November 16, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:29 AM UTC
I have heard the same thing from others. I served in Somalia with the Marine Corps and so far have refused to see the movie out of respect for those who did not come back.
WeWillHold
Member Since: April 17, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 04:08 AM UTC
Regarding Black Hawk Down:
Based on reading the book, seeing the movie, and following the events as they actually happened, I come away with mixed emotions, but certainly disagree with Jamal.
First and foremost, the USA was originally in that country, (along with others), to help feed and protect people who were being starved out of existence because their country was experiencing a complete breakdown in civil order. This wasn't just a USA show, it was the world (i.e. the U.N. trying to help). As we know, besides the humanitarian efforts to feed/clothe the Somali population, efforts to protect the populace from various "Warlords" were also undertaken, which eventually led to the events covered in the book, (and the movie).
As the movie and book depict, a U.N. humanitarian effort unfortunately evolved into a police action. It should be remembered, that besides U.S. troops being killed in the action depicted in the movie, a number Pakistani troops had been slaughtered prior to that event, so the situation in Somalia was in complete chaos. Chaos also describes the battle depicted in the movie, (for all people's involved). I didn't see "America is best", I saw Pakistani, U.S., and Somali men in a desperate battle to survive.
The movie shows what we all should already know, that men can be terribly cruel to other men, and even the best intentions to help and protect others, can be very costly to those trying to provide the help.
Based on reading the book, seeing the movie, and following the events as they actually happened, I come away with mixed emotions, but certainly disagree with Jamal.
First and foremost, the USA was originally in that country, (along with others), to help feed and protect people who were being starved out of existence because their country was experiencing a complete breakdown in civil order. This wasn't just a USA show, it was the world (i.e. the U.N. trying to help). As we know, besides the humanitarian efforts to feed/clothe the Somali population, efforts to protect the populace from various "Warlords" were also undertaken, which eventually led to the events covered in the book, (and the movie).
As the movie and book depict, a U.N. humanitarian effort unfortunately evolved into a police action. It should be remembered, that besides U.S. troops being killed in the action depicted in the movie, a number Pakistani troops had been slaughtered prior to that event, so the situation in Somalia was in complete chaos. Chaos also describes the battle depicted in the movie, (for all people's involved). I didn't see "America is best", I saw Pakistani, U.S., and Somali men in a desperate battle to survive.
The movie shows what we all should already know, that men can be terribly cruel to other men, and even the best intentions to help and protect others, can be very costly to those trying to provide the help.
PfcGreen
Member Since: July 31, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 05:03 AM UTC
I would have to disagree with Jamal, I saw none of this "too much America" except that the movie follows a group of Americans. This movie did'nt show our soldiers as super soldiers who never get hurt and never die. It showed them as they are, humans, I thought it was very good.
AIRB842586
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 09:44 AM UTC
I think the movie was very well-done and also followed the book well. It revealed the reality of modern warfare, the human-side, it was done with an attitude that would be difficult to copy in other movies. The US Army was very instrumental in the logistics of the film, training the actors and such. Many extras were regular-army.
Matt
Matt
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:52 PM UTC
Personally, I saw the movie as showcasing the failure in the operational planning by senior personnel. This is highlghted very well. The Ranger Company Commander was shown as lacking when the bullets started flying. It does show that the troops went above and beyond and the training of small units is very good.
It is an excellent movie and does the soldiers justice who were involved in the fire fights. Well worth the rental or purchase price. I would recommend seeing it in its feature film length. If it gets released on broadcast network TV, the inevitable commercial cuts and ratings edits would greatly reduce its value.
As far as it being "pro-American", remember after September 11th, the President asked Hollywood to release patriotic films to raise American confidence. That may have effected how the final edit went. This is just speculation though.
Disclaimer: If this question was answered in error, or an answer not required/expected/wanted, please notify me and I will delete the post. This post is not intended as an attack on any persons posting prior to or after this post. Please feel free to disregard/disbelieve/discount any information contained in the post.
It is an excellent movie and does the soldiers justice who were involved in the fire fights. Well worth the rental or purchase price. I would recommend seeing it in its feature film length. If it gets released on broadcast network TV, the inevitable commercial cuts and ratings edits would greatly reduce its value.
As far as it being "pro-American", remember after September 11th, the President asked Hollywood to release patriotic films to raise American confidence. That may have effected how the final edit went. This is just speculation though.
Disclaimer: If this question was answered in error, or an answer not required/expected/wanted, please notify me and I will delete the post. This post is not intended as an attack on any persons posting prior to or after this post. Please feel free to disregard/disbelieve/discount any information contained in the post.
WeWillHold
Member Since: April 17, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 01:35 PM UTC
Sabot:
I noticed your posts usually have the disclaimer at the end. Can you please shed some light on this for me. I'm just curious. Thanks.
Steve
I noticed your posts usually have the disclaimer at the end. Can you please shed some light on this for me. I'm just curious. Thanks.
Steve
tankshack
Member Since: January 30, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 01:52 PM UTC
Based on reading the post by Jamal.. I would say that the producers, directors and cast of "Blackhawk Down" did their jobs very well.
What can one expect? First, the movie is made by a bunch of Americans, the movie stars a whole bunch more Americans... and third, the movie tells the story of a group of American soldiers that were in a bad situation that really went wrong.
Those soldiers on the ground did the absolute best that they could and they were able to survive despite the mistakes that were made at all levels of command.
I was glad that Mark Bowden told the story of those events in such a compelling book. And I was even happier when Hollywood made such an awesome movie based on those events.. our soldiers ARE THE BEST in the world... and their stories deserve to be told.
Thanks,
Tim
What can one expect? First, the movie is made by a bunch of Americans, the movie stars a whole bunch more Americans... and third, the movie tells the story of a group of American soldiers that were in a bad situation that really went wrong.
Those soldiers on the ground did the absolute best that they could and they were able to survive despite the mistakes that were made at all levels of command.
I was glad that Mark Bowden told the story of those events in such a compelling book. And I was even happier when Hollywood made such an awesome movie based on those events.. our soldiers ARE THE BEST in the world... and their stories deserve to be told.
Thanks,
Tim
SS-74
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 03:38 PM UTC
I read the book and I watched the movie (maybe 10 times), and I also own the DVD. It's an excellent movie, and is not pro-american at all, well as someone had pointed out, if any, it's a group of American soldiers, that's about the only thing Pro-American. But hey there are tons of Somialians, would you call the movie Pro-Somalia?
It's a good movie, and everytime I watch it I am touched by the courage, sacrafice, and brotherhood.
Jamal, I think maybe those Somalia morons will agree with you on your stance of the movie, but other than those, I don't see how it could happen.
It's a good movie, and everytime I watch it I am touched by the courage, sacrafice, and brotherhood.
Jamal, I think maybe those Somalia morons will agree with you on your stance of the movie, but other than those, I don't see how it could happen.
User_789
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:12 PM UTC
I am sorry if I made you angry, but I only ment that it's always "two non-american warlords" and never "two American warlords", if you understand me. Why can't it be "two american warlords"? I've never seen a american movie about war with a american "Badguy"...
/ Jamal
/ Jamal
SS-74
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Posted: Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:35 PM UTC
Jamal, I am sorry that I sound a bit harsh, it's just that I am very touched by this movie and I think it's great. But everyone has their own opinions, and we agree to disagree..... 
As for why there is not many movie about American bad guys, well I think it's just historically there are not many American Bad Guy at the same level at that Adidad.....
As for why there is not many movie about American bad guys, well I think it's just historically there are not many American Bad Guy at the same level at that Adidad.....
m60a3
Member Since: March 08, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 09:23 AM UTC
Jamal,
If you want to see an American-made film where the American is seen as the bad guy, watch "Patton". It was intended as an anit-war film, and Patton was to be depicted as a warmongering fool. Although we don't percieve that now.
If you want to see an American-made film where the American is seen as the bad guy, watch "Patton". It was intended as an anit-war film, and Patton was to be depicted as a warmongering fool. Although we don't percieve that now.
Tiger101
Member Since: March 02, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 09:35 AM UTC
Jamal there are quite a few Americans as bad guys movies. Try Apocalypse Now. That movie was purely anti American Vietnam involvement. As for BlackHawk Down The movie (with a little dramatic licence) showed what happened in Somalia .
2CDO
Member Since: November 26, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 04:22 PM UTC
I completely agree with you they didn't even mention the Canadians who were their or how the Pakistans were ambushed a couple of weeks earlier. But i got the impression that it was an extreamly patriotic American movie. 
Hollowpoint
Member Since: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 04:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I saw Black hawk down yesterday. I think that the movie was really bad, actually the most american patriot film I ever seen! The only message the movie gave me was "America is best" and "God bless America". Anyone who agree to me, that the movie was too much "America"?
... and not enough Sweden?
I'm with Sabot on this one. BHD -- the book and the movie -- did a good job of showcasing problems in the U.S. command and control systems. They highlight the rivalry between the Rangers and the Delta Force, and show how an otherwise "routine" mission can get fouled up in a hurry.
Black Hawk Down is based on a true story. The producers combined a few characters and simplified some of the more complicated and confusing aspects of the op, but the main points of the story are there.
SFC Summit: I think you might want to read the book, even if you decide to skip the movie. Mark Bowden does a good job of showing why things changed when the Marines pulled out and the Army came in. It's also a pretty harsh indictment of Clinton Adminstration military policy. Bowden has no axe to grind and he interviewed people on all sides to write the story.
Sorry, Jamal, if the facts get in the way of your beliefs.
staff_Jim
PublisherMember Since: December 15, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 05:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I completely agree with you they didn't even mention the Canadians who were their or how the Pakistans were ambushed a couple of weeks earlier. But i got the impression that it was an extreamly patriotic American movie.
Okie dokey...
The movie opens with the fact that Pakistani's had been killed. You had to "read" that part though.
Of course for true historical movies the youth of today can go and see stuff like The Fast and the Furious, and Extreme Ops!
Jim
Wolf-Leader
Member Since: June 06, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 05:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Regarding Black Hawk Down:
Based on reading the book, seeing the movie, and following the events as they actually happened, I come away with mixed emotions, but certainly disagree with Jamal.
First and foremost, the USA was originally in that country, (along with others), to help feed and protect people who were being starved out of existence because their country was experiencing a complete breakdown in civil order. This wasn't just a USA show, it was the world (i.e. the U.N. trying to help). As we know, besides the humanitarian efforts to feed/clothe the Somali population, efforts to protect the populace from various "Warlords" were also undertaken, which eventually led to the events covered in the book, (and the movie).
As the movie and book depict, a U.N. humanitarian effort unfortunately evolved into a police action. It should be remembered, that besides U.S. troops being killed in the action depicted in the movie, a number Pakistani troops had been slaughtered prior to that event, so the situation in Somalia was in complete chaos. Chaos also describes the battle depicted in the movie, (for all people's involved). I didn't see "America is best", I saw Pakistani, U.S., and Somali men in a desperate battle to survive.
The movie shows what we all should already know, that men can be terribly cruel to other men, and even the best intentions to help and protect others, can be very costly to those trying to provide the help.
I have to agree with wewillhold, I was attached to the 75th ranger regiment and as a fellow ranger it made me sick!
I sometimes understand why we where there, but like the saying that I have heard so many times before,"To much information can kill you". Fellow rangers and D-boys did their job in a texed book manner. They should not have been there or died there! So in my opinon anyone who thinks that it was a cool, damn good or even a bad movie is talking out of their ass! I am sorry if I step on anyones toes I dont' mean to, but Damn, why??!!! 
Ranger74
Member Since: April 04, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 03:03 PM UTC
The book, if I recall correctly, was written by an American pilot who participated. The situation of non-American warlords was a fact of that particular incident. As stated elsewhere, I do not believe this was not an America-is-best movie. In fact, after watching the beginning, when the Rangers were preparing, I became digusted with the failure of the leadership of the Rangers for failure to conduct proper pre-combat checks, costing several Rangers their lives - leaving body armor and water behind - DEFINITELY NOT THE WAY I WAS TRAINED I think it showed a little American arrogance, which has cost American soldiers in many past conflicts.
This is what happens when we get sucked into a conflict where we don't belong. We were orignally on an honorable mission (as stated above) to protect the distribution of UN food stuffs and medical aid - something the UN is fairly good at. Something the UN sucks at is intervening militarily where they don't belong - and the US soldier usually suffers. But we have a different chain of command now
Jeff
I think it showed a little American arrogance, which has cost American soldiers in many past conflicts. This is what happens when we get sucked into a conflict where we don't belong. We were orignally on an honorable mission (as stated above) to protect the distribution of UN food stuffs and medical aid - something the UN is fairly good at. Something the UN sucks at is intervening militarily where they don't belong - and the US soldier usually suffers. But we have a different chain of command now
Jeff
Jaster
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 05:41 PM UTC
Blackhawk Down is, in my opinion, a truly great movie. It follows the book pretty closely, as close as a movie like this is ever likely to follow a book. If the book is an accurate telling of the story the movie is too. I know there were a couple of changes in the movie from the reality, but all in all it is spot on.
Now...was it a RAH RAH AMERICA movie?? I don't think so. For what its' worth it showed some of the best of our military as well as some of its' big problems.
What struck me was the brotherhood of the soldiers, the intensity of the conflict, the confusion and utter chaos of combat.
I took my kids (11 yr old daughter & 14 yr old son) to see it as well. I thought it was an important story for them to see. If America commits its' youth to a mission, it had damned well better have a clear mission, and provide them wwith the tools needed to complete it. War/Combat is NOT a video game, it is not sterile- it is perhaps the most serious undertaking of man. People die, they get hurt and maimed. BUT, it sometimes must be done. The American Soldier is as fine a fighting man as walks the earth!
Sorry for the rambling nature of this...
Jim
Now...was it a RAH RAH AMERICA movie?? I don't think so. For what its' worth it showed some of the best of our military as well as some of its' big problems.
What struck me was the brotherhood of the soldiers, the intensity of the conflict, the confusion and utter chaos of combat.
I took my kids (11 yr old daughter & 14 yr old son) to see it as well. I thought it was an important story for them to see. If America commits its' youth to a mission, it had damned well better have a clear mission, and provide them wwith the tools needed to complete it. War/Combat is NOT a video game, it is not sterile- it is perhaps the most serious undertaking of man. People die, they get hurt and maimed. BUT, it sometimes must be done. The American Soldier is as fine a fighting man as walks the earth!
Sorry for the rambling nature of this...
Jim
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 01:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've never seen a american movie about war with a american "Badguy"...
/ Jamal
I'd suggest you revisit Apocalypse Now. Captain Kurtz (Brando's role) is American, a warlord if ever there was one, and certainly a "bad guy". Martin Sheen's role as his executioner is certainly morally ambiguous. Then check out Robert Duval's character, more moral ambiguity as he calls in a strike on the Vietnamese village so his champion surfer can do his thing.
2CDO
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 03:19 AM UTC
granted the movie did open up with how the Pakistani's were killed but it didn't touch base on how the situation changed when the Canadian Airborne Regiment or all the other Canadian units pulled out. Because when the Canadians were there their wasn't and ambush or any major assult on the UN tasking when Canadian units were there. It wasn't untill the Canadian units left that all that stuff happend.
PorkChop
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 03:44 PM UTC
Just a point of clarification. The book was written by a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer. I've talked to one Ranger who was there who said the general opinion in that community was the book was about 60 percent accurate. The movie about half of that, or 30 percent accurate (i.e. Technicals (the trucks with the all guns etc.) were not in the city due to an eariler mandate, I don't recall all the specifics.....).
Either way, the book and movie served to open people's eyes to an event many had no idea happened....
Nate
Wisc. USA
Either way, the book and movie served to open people's eyes to an event many had no idea happened....
Nate
Wisc. USA
Jaster
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 04:30 PM UTC
Except for those who were there we will never know for sure the accuracy of the book or movie...and even then accuracy can be a slippery thing. Who is recounting events, where they witnessed them from, under what circumstances they witnessed them from, and a myriad of other things will cause one story to have MANY versions- none of them more or less correct than another version.
Bowden seems to have done an honest job of trying to tell the story as honestly as possible. Bowden's original recounting of the events in Mogadishu are still available from the Philadelphia Inquirer website, also available there are a LOT of online Q&As that Bowden conducted online. I have downloaded them...printed them...but haven't taken the time to read them. What I have scanned through seems VERY interesting. Here is the website if anyone is interested:
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp
The bottom line of the whole ugly, nasty event in Somalia is that the American soldier, the grunts, the Rangers, the D-Boys- performed bravely, with integrity and devotion to their Brothers in Arms, executing a mission that may or may not have made sense to them, but one that they were ordered to do...
I have the absolute deepest admiration for the American Soldier...every day I am aware that they are in a very fundamental way responsible for the freedom we all enjoy in this country and have done a great deal around the world to push towards freedom for countless others!
I rate Blackhawk Down as one of the best "war" movies ever. It seems to do a remarkable job of portraying the utter chaos, the disorientation, the terror, the emotion and fear that must accompany combat. I don't speak from experience, and I am sure that combat vets can find issues with the movie, but I suspect that this movie comes as close as any to portraying combat in a realistic manner.
Bowden seems to have done an honest job of trying to tell the story as honestly as possible. Bowden's original recounting of the events in Mogadishu are still available from the Philadelphia Inquirer website, also available there are a LOT of online Q&As that Bowden conducted online. I have downloaded them...printed them...but haven't taken the time to read them. What I have scanned through seems VERY interesting. Here is the website if anyone is interested:
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp
The bottom line of the whole ugly, nasty event in Somalia is that the American soldier, the grunts, the Rangers, the D-Boys- performed bravely, with integrity and devotion to their Brothers in Arms, executing a mission that may or may not have made sense to them, but one that they were ordered to do...
I have the absolute deepest admiration for the American Soldier...every day I am aware that they are in a very fundamental way responsible for the freedom we all enjoy in this country and have done a great deal around the world to push towards freedom for countless others!
I rate Blackhawk Down as one of the best "war" movies ever. It seems to do a remarkable job of portraying the utter chaos, the disorientation, the terror, the emotion and fear that must accompany combat. I don't speak from experience, and I am sure that combat vets can find issues with the movie, but I suspect that this movie comes as close as any to portraying combat in a realistic manner.
Sabot
Member Since: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 04:51 PM UTC
Bottom line:
Does this movie/book re-tell a fairly accurate version of what may have happened? Is any historical account, to include official after-action-reviews, truly accurate? A dozen people can experience the same event and each one tell it differently.
I think Hollywood probably did the combatants more justice than the makers of "Memphis Belle", "Battle of the Bulge", "U-571", "Sands of Iwo Jima", "Flying Tigers" or any other Hollywood motion picture. (please no attacks for the list, just off the top of my head).
Better to be done now, while the accounts are relatively fresh in the participants' minds than to have a movie like this done 20 years from now by someone who may have portrayed the US troops a little more unevenly.
Does this movie/book re-tell a fairly accurate version of what may have happened? Is any historical account, to include official after-action-reviews, truly accurate? A dozen people can experience the same event and each one tell it differently.
I think Hollywood probably did the combatants more justice than the makers of "Memphis Belle", "Battle of the Bulge", "U-571", "Sands of Iwo Jima", "Flying Tigers" or any other Hollywood motion picture. (please no attacks for the list, just off the top of my head).
Better to be done now, while the accounts are relatively fresh in the participants' minds than to have a movie like this done 20 years from now by someone who may have portrayed the US troops a little more unevenly.
MSGsummit
Member Since: November 16, 2002
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2002 - 06:52 PM UTC
hollowpoint,
I may just read the book. Still the movie for me will be a no-go. As for Clintons foriegn policy, you're right it diffenately sucked!
I may just read the book. Still the movie for me will be a no-go. As for Clintons foriegn policy, you're right it diffenately sucked!
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