The thing I don't like, is that some (as in not all) judges try so hard to find something wrong on a model, that they come up with things that shouldn't have been noticed. I have heard of one guy at a club I go to, who brought in a KV-@ with heavily sagged tracks, based off a picture in a steve zaloga book. He later got a note that the tracks had way too much sag, he got a bronze. There is no such thing as too much sag on a russian tank. He later brought it in with a note that read some thing like "based on a picture in a steve zaloga book" and got gold.
I have also heard of a guy who got blamed with a seam on a metal barrell.


I'm also kinda touchy on the "mirror and penlight" topic as well.

I've belonged to three different IPMS clubs, each club about 1000 miles away from the other. While I don't doubt it exists, I have yet to see the politics and favoritism that is alluded to on virtually every modeling venue.

I've probably been to more shows since coming to the Boston metropolitan area than I have in all my years modeling combined. This is because there are multiple clubs within about a 100 mile radius.

I tend to see the same folks there, Al LaFleche being one of them. I see the same folks win with different kits. I suspect this is because the modelers are very good builders and not part of some clique.

I'm surprised at the number of guys who seem to know me. I get a lot of: "You remember me, right? You sent me some (parts/decals/photos/instructions) for a...."

I try to be polite, but normally, I don't have a clue unless I've met them face-to-face before. I know I'm definitely not a part of some secret back stabbing society. The guys I meet at clubs and shows most likely won't ever see me again in the next year.

Sometimes I win something, sometimes I don't. I do not really care. It is nice, but it is not why I went to show in the first place.

That's ridiculous!! they just wanted to find an excuse? :-)


That is true in my case. never been at a contest, but based on what some people think of them, I never will. I might go to one only for the show, now that I have a car.

I have to say that I think that AJ has hit it on the head with his posts. Me being a figure modeler I am used to the Open system with Gold. Silver and Bronzes and not the 1,2 ,3 system. I have however been to quite a few IPMS Shows, especially in 2003 when I went on the "show circuit" in the mid west with some guys in my local IPMS chapter. I had never met 99% of the people at the shows we went to but still I kept getting 1st, 2nds and 3rds with most of the stuff I entered, as well as my traveling partners who took home many awards and even a couple of Best of Show's. I assure you it was nothing of the good ol club as I didnt know them at all. Same thing this year at Mastercon, I knew only a few by name and a few via the internet (KFMagee was one) but I still placed good with everything I entered, and if anything should be a good ol' boys club it would be a show like Mastercon where everybody votes (one would assume people voting for just buddies) but in reality the stuff that was the best got the awards, not based on who you know, I am living proof of it.

Who would want to win an award because you are so and so or know so and so anyways?

Well it looks like alot of you guys don't have experance with the AMPS style of juding, where each piece is judged agaisnt itself and not other models and they give you feed back on model in the areas you might need to improve on. Its not perfect, but it does advoid the click that you might see in local IMPS clubs. I know the show in NNJ that is put on by NJ IMPS has the same guy winning in the Armor catagory, but he also does well in the AMPS Nationals.

I

I'm with Al, Rob and Anders on this one. I've been to dozens of contests as far aways as Alaska and all over the Midwest U.S. Though I have seen a few questionable calls at contest (sometimes because the entrant put his model in the wrong category), I have never seen outright favoritism for any pariticular club or clique. To do so would be the kiss of doom for a contest.

Why do the same guys win at different contests? Because they are better modelers.

Often it's a matter of the basics: seams, misalignment, silvered decals, paint ... I have judged at many, many contests -- using IPMS, AMPS and "Chicago" rules. In all of the systems, the things that consistently keep models out of the medals are seams, misalignment, silvered decals and paint.

Wow, what a thread! I am fairly competitive and I have been all of my life. I have played sports all of my life and I am used to the whining. But that will happen because everybody puts so much effort into it and sometimes it's hard to step back and accept others are better than you sometimes. That happens both in modeling competitions and in sports.

That is why I like golf. It's more you against the course than you against the other golfers. If you make mistakes on the golf course, it's your fault. And the best part is that you call penalties on yourself. Honor is everything in golf. But I digress.

There can be a similarity to golf in modeling in a sense, and that is a move to Open Judging too, as Al has mentioned. You get awarded for how good you are, and do not luck out if nobody showed in your category, or the opposite too. Just like in golf where your basically in competition with the course. In Open Judging your in "competition" with the standard. Now, some shows the standard is ridiculously high, and it has to be (like Euro Militaire - I have been there and there is no way I am going to medal) since the participants are so darn good. However, I have been to a World Show and I believe the standards are similar and I medalled there. Nobody knows me at these shows and I believe I get a fair shake. Yet, sometimes I do get the feeling there are cliques, but I try not to think about it. Generally, the good models win and the lacking ones do not.

I did use that as a motivator in my younger days as I was up against Lynn Kessler and his friend (I can't remember his name - they wrote a figure painting book together for Kalmbach) and I always lost to them. Sometimes I came third and other times did not get anything. Now, looking back I was terrible. I have photos of those models and I can't believe I thought at the time I was decent. Competing against great modelers like those guys and going to Euromilitaire did make me get better.

And I do love part about showing my stuff off, even if I don't win (or get a higher award than I got). Competitions are still one of the best ways for others to see your stuff and get feedback (but the internet is probably better as long as you have a camera and take good photos).

Also what I like about the Open system is that it is treated more like an art show at the figure shows. You display all of your work together and can use whatever display system you want. Just about everybody uses boxes covered with velvet and they are stacked at different heights to create interest. Many people put paraphanalia around their models too, like a life sized helmet maybe that mirrors one that a figure in the display is wearing. However, AMPS does it by category and the Open system is used there. It works great. There is a beginner/basic level, there is an intermediate level, and there is the advanced level. I believe VLS' show is that way too. And they are split up similar to IPMS categories.

Finally, I would like to see the end of judges using lights or mirrors or anything other than the naked eye to judge. A show should have adequate lighting to begin with. We all make models to SCALE. They are meant to be viewed at a certain distance and even if someone wants to view it upclose, fine, but do it with the naked eye. It is not to scale to use a bright light to look at anything. If someone can not see a flaw with a naked eye then it doesn't exist. We are painting to scale, ie shadows and highlight and whatnot. If a light is used then that destroys the effect of a shadow or highlight, etc. I know lights are also used to see if a judge can find a glue mark, but again, I think models are meant to be viewed with the naked eye, and if you can't see it it does not exist. Should a judge be allowed to scrape off some caked-on mud to see if there is a flaw under there, when another model nearby of the same tank has no mud in that same spot? Of course not. In that case the judge has to deal with looking at the mud and that is it, as long as it looks realistic. Well, I don't think a pen light is realistic.

Okay, this is really my last point. I don't think judges should be allowed to touch the model either. There should be consistency in judging. Many modelers put their tank on a base with some rudimentary ground work and so it is glued down. No problem. The judge can move it around and I guess pick it up and look at it from all kinds of angles, but still has to deal with the limited viewing angles due to it being glued to groundwork. Yet, if a modeler just plunks that same tank on the table with no groundwork the judges pick it up and turn it over. They can't do that with the one that is on groundwork. This kind of ties into the light thing for me. I think that models should be looked at with the naked eye and without being touched. They are built to scale and painted to scale, and so they should be viewed that way too.

I agree with Burik that judges should not be allowed to pick up models. At every contest I have been to, handling is kept to a minimum and only if absolutely needed. For instance, at AMPS contests, models are touched at least once and sometimes twice as they are judged, then moved to the display area -- it pays to have the model attached to the base, lest some model handler inadvertently bend or break something or leave a fingerprint.

His comment reminded me of something that many modelers do not do -- look at a model from table level. Judges do this to check alignment and how a model sits. You wouldn't believe what else you notice from a low angle. Most modelers look at their models only from above -- look at the gallery photos and you'll see what I mean.

Also, some modelers try to hide seams and other errors with stowage, mud or other "stuff." It doesn't work.

You have no idea, unless you've judged, how hard this is, to choose 1-2-3 in class, that's what a judge has to do. Find the model with the absolute LEAST number of errors. Often, that means looking for the smallest imaginable mistake to separate first from second.



David, "i've heard of" is the stuff of urban legends. Unless you have specifics, you should try to avoid this kind of statement.



I wish every contest hall I judge in had the same lighting as my work bench. I wouldn't have to use my minimaglite.I don't own a dental mirror, but if every contestant allowed a judge to examine his/her entry from every reasonable angle, mirrors wouldn't be needed. Again, there is often a real challenge in determining 1-2-3 among excellently built models. When a competitor says don't pick up a model, and you have to check for seams on the underside, and the builder next to him/her has allowed you to look at his/her work on the bottom of what, after all, is a 3 dimensional item with 6 sides, how can you come to a real conclusion?

oh, another reason why I will never win a contest...I never paint the tank's underside. :-)

As someone who both competes and, as president of a club, oversees a show, lighting is not always something under my control. The 2 shows my club does are lucky enough to have good lighting. One show in the region has very weak lightig for its figure area which is against a wall. One year, the IPMS R1 contest room was so bad, sponsoring club members had to bring in table lamps for several categories and we who judged could stll barely see the models.
As to mirrors, see my post above about "do not touch."

This concept is like the bodybuilders Pose Down part of thier comprtition. If a judge is not allowed to touch/move a model, the guy who positions his model the most auspiciously has unfair advantage on the guy who arrived later an had to put his work at the back of the table.

Would you buy a suit if the taiolr didn't sew the crotch? Would you buy a car if the guy at the assembly plant didn't tighten the bolts on your transmission?
If you were to enter a running race, do you think you'd deserve first place if you didn't run as far os the other competitors?

[/quote]
Would you buy a suit if the taiolr didn't sew the crotch? Would you buy a car if the guy at the assembly plant didn't tighten the bolts on your transmission?
If you were to enter a running race, do you think you'd deserve first place if you didn't run as far os the other competitors?[/quote]

Ah, Al, you miss a little what I was trying to say. In your analagies (or is it metaphors, I always forget ) there is a certain sameness to suits and cars ... and as you say everybody in a race has to run the same distance. My point (yes, I made too many points in my rant ) was that in a model competition not everybody is running the same distance. We could all model the same tank, but some would put gear on the vehicle (is he hiding something?), others would put mud on the vehicle (is he hiding something?), others would glue it on groundwork (is he hiding something?). The guy with a "clean" tank would be exposing his work to more scrutiny that the others, yet the others are judged the same, or at least they should be. Because I do believe that all of the above additions, if you will, make the model interesting, and are not hiding anything (well, usually :-) ). And of course those additions I assume are judged too. So there is a certain risk.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that there always will be subjectivity in the judging because there has to be since none of us want to model the same way. But there can be more consistency. Again, back to one of my points about not touching the model. The guy who has his glued down can not be touched (except for the base) and the bottom can not be seen. The guy who built the same model without a base is subject to different judging standards since his can be picked up and turned over and whatever else happens. That is not consistent. If I were to follow my own logic I guess there would have to be a rule that either the model be placed on some type of base so THAT can be touched/moved or no bases be used.

And yes, I know it's a three dimensional model, but how many tanks are MEANT to be seen from the bottom by being held upside down? If someone wants to see ANY part they should have to view the model as they would in real life (under most reasonable circumstances) by just plain looking at it. Because that is the way we model it in the first place. To be looked at unaided. I KNOW, I KNOW, I am really blathering now.

Anybody out there can probably come up with logic that is quite the opposite of what I'm saying and make me look foolish (not that my wife would disagree), but it's just my personal opinion. The rules came together a long time ago and were thought out carefully, so in that sense I have no quarrel. I assume there is a point where subjectivity has to come into play and the rule makers drew their line there. I would have just drawn it as I stated above. But I can live with it and I have. I do build knowing what the rules are, and I have lost due to some of my silly errors. I probably sound like a guy who does not win, but actually I do. I just like to see as much fairness and consistency as possible, knowing that little of what we do can fall in the black and white category. No matter how much objectivity you have, you can always drill down and get subjective.

So I will shut up on the subject with this closing. Don't be put off by what you hear or even perceive at a show. Go, or keep going and learn off of the other modelers and have a good time. If you lose you can probably talk to a judge and respecfully ask him about your shortcomings without comparing it to the other models, so you can LEARN from your own shortcomings. I have, and it has made me a better modeler.

Burik, I hope you don't think I'm trying to make anyone look foolish. We're having a discussion.
As to the bottom of a tank being painted. I understand your point, but we are not dealing with a real tank, we're dealing with the representatio of thatn and how well the person put together several dozen peiced of palstic to make a realistic representaion. I do try to handle models as little as possible, but typically contenders are moved to the front of hte table for closer scrutiny. Remember, as a judge I, with the restof the team, am tasked with choosing the best three models on the table that day. If the tops are equal, then I'll loook at the bottom. (in aircraft and auto classes that's virtually a given since there are major seams that need to be addressed on the bottoms of these and often added detailing. I'm sure you've seen some of these posed on mirrors to encourage viewing the bottoms) Now, if one model is painted and wethered consistently top and bottom, and one is not painted on the bottom, all other things being equal, the complete paint job will get the nod. To be honest, I can't remember the last time I've had to pick up a tank and examine the bottom in judging. The cut can usually be made from examining the upper structures.
Adding stuff. Yes, stowage and weathering are considerations. They'll help if done well and are consitent with the rest of the work. They can alos be a big hindrance if the glue to hold them inplace is showing or if seams aren't cleaned up on them too.
We all start withthe same box of plasic. We assemble and paint and detail it to the best of our abilities. If we compete, we then ask a group of strangers to tell us if on a given day with a given set of other builders how our work ranks. Each team's set of eyes is likely to come up with a different conclusion.

I Chatted with a couple of the "Car" guys at the last Buffcon........ they both reguarlly take awards.... And i found it Ironic they both work in Auto body Shops.......Painting real Cars.

I was in a city back in May for a contest, I brought some dios and some cars. One thing I found out real quick was that the city liked their armor "clean". I was like the only entrant in the dio category who had the dirtiest dios, all destroyed city scenes, etc. So I thought that maybe I'll have a chance, the judges came by, looked at my stuff for I swear, 5 seconds, and moved on. What eventually won was a little vignette of a camel blocking the path of a kubelwagen. the base was like all of 7 inches in diameter, a little sand for the base. I couldn't believe it. But after talking to some of the other entrants, I did get alot of compliments on my dios, and was asked for some tips, which made my day.
Now we're getting ready for our contest this Sat., and in the last couple of years the ribbon/medal awards have been judged by the public and entrants. So if you entered a plane, car and a tank, you have to go around to those categories and judge 1 2 3. The trophies are still done by a team of 5. And there are times when the judges walk away with the trophies.
I've judged before, and what gets my vote is how the model appeals to me. If it's something that catches my eye and blows me away, it's getting the nod from me.
If I see a dio or a tank that looks kickass I don't care if the barrel is two milemeters short, or if the third rivet from the left is the wrong pattern. And I think that should be the main factor. If it appeals to you who cares if it's "right" or "wrong"?

Hi Al. Yes, I agree with you that all things being equal the bottom would need to be taken into consideration to see if there is a difference. And I agree that models need to be moved around for judging purposes. I suppose if we do not want our models touched then we need to glue it to a base. Why didn't I jsut say that before?

Frankly, 90% of what I do is either in a vignette or diorama so the issue is not really that personal to me, it just seemed an inconsistency to me when I was thinking about judging as I read this thread. My biggest "gripe" is the light thing, and percentage-wise I think that shows are well lit. There are exceptions as you point out, but I believe they are rare.

Okay, okay, that REALLY is the last of what I have to say! No, really. Well, maybe.

Yes and no.
Per IPMS rules and reinfoced in discussions with some of the top national judges, the scale length and bolt pattern would not be considered in judging. Judges should be judging a model on modleing skills, not on how much you like it. Appeal is a very tough call except in a people's choice situation. As a rule, British armor and aircraft don't appeal to me. I'll walk right past them without a second glance. Until I'm judging. I don't know or care about bolt patterns or accurate length. I'm going to make my first cut on decal silvering,. big glue spots, uneven track or a wheel that's sitting up of the ground , painting qualities and obvious seams, mold parting lines and ejector pin marks. In some cases, these errors will show up in the most cursory glance and the model is going to the back of the table. Next go round will be closer inspection of each and comparisons among the finalists after checking registration numbers to eliminate sweeps. Yeah, my flashlight's going to be out now, to reveal both good and bad points. If the team's lucky, we'll have a clear 1-2-3. If not, we're going to have to keep looking for the model that was just built better thatn the rest. If it's a butt ugly British thing, it's going to win, no matter how much it doesn't appeal to me.
Now, as to why the judges spent little time on your dio, they may have seen some error you missed. We are often too close to our own work to see things clearly. The more casual observers probably saw a very good dio and wanted to learn from you. A judge shouldn't be influenced by the "WOW!" factor. A 1/72 B-36 has about as much "WOW!" factor as any model in any room, but unless the builder is very skilled, it will rarely do well because it has some serios fit problems. Not having been there, I can't say why the camel dio did better than yours.
I spent a bit of time with Gunny at the Nationals last month doing some one on one critiquing. I think it was a real learning experince for those who took part in this to essentially have their models "judged" in front of them.
As to judges getting awards, it's going to happen. I judge a lot and I win a fair amount. But you don't get to judge your own categories.

Interesting thread.

I am not a 'big dog' modeler up here in Northern New England.

I feed in the middle of the pack on a good day.

The local big dog works in a body/paint shop and has an amazing talent in both full scale and miniature work . I dont' begrudge him thqat at all, and I do not let it dissuade me from bringing my latest work to the table. Like Rob said, for show if need be.

But, I have ambitions and aspirations to be better, so I go to shows to see, be motivated by and to get a chance to pick the brains of the other competitors.

I presonally prefer the AMPS system, despite my feelings that it is too slanted toward the 'throw a kitchen sink's worth of aftermarket at the kit' mentality.

In that system, I compete not against the other modelers and their modeld in my class, but against a shared and previously communicated standard.

So my first difficulty w competitions is solved, I am competing against myself, not against the uber-modeler. AMPS provides for levels of competition and advancement as well. IPMS type shows have a 1-2-3 and that's it for everyone award system have middle of the road guys like me, whose current piece of work is a substantial improvement over the last one, competing (especially in the big catagories) with all the big dogs.

My other difficulty with competitions is more easily dealt with, the 'Trophy hog' guy who brings a carload of models, comes into show, scopes out catagories w few entries and goes back to car for entries in underrepresented catagoties where he can shine.

I don't know why it bugs me, but it really does, especially when they show up at the next months club meeting full of themselves and their "19 wins"

These poor folks I just pity. I feel sorry for them that their lives are so empty that this is what they have to do to feel good about themselves.

Do modelers get undeserved awards?
Sure, I've got one upstairs on the shelf. And while I am happy to have it, I take no great joy in it.
I 'won' the local club award for best British military for an ootb Brit Challenger that barely got a bronze at AMPS. It should not have beaten the re-flagged Panther 'Cuckoo' to win, but it did.
Both of us ( the panther builder and I) know it.

I wont bring up last years episode at AMPS East again, but when things don't go our way, even normal adults can be very childish.

See you all at Granite-con and AMPS East
Mike

I think you answered your own questions better than I would have. I realise too that I am not paying as much attention to a model as the next modeller, and that's why I think I don't deserve to win. not that I wouldn't like it :-) :-) :-)

It sucks when you win and see that the losers sometimes deserve it more than you, it gives you this empty feeling.....

Uh, was it this model?


If it was, I wouldn't feel too bad about losing to it -- it has a lot of good things going on at a bunch of different levels. Bigger and more complicated often loses to small, simple and well-done.

Anyone interested in this diorama should check out this feature: https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/88

Yup, that was the one. It's a nice little piece, and the camel adds something different. But for me personally, there just isn't much to it, but maybe sometimes less is better? Or maybe my stuff was too weathered for the judges? Who knows...all in all it was a great show, and I had a great time meeting new modellers.

Kubelwagen?? That looks as much like a Kubel wagen as a DUKW looks like a Schwimmwagen. Not wanting to pretend that I know it all, I checked Hollowpoint's link were it explains that it is a Fiat Topolino, with 2 Italian Figures. I think it's an exellent little diorama, depicting something different. Can't judge if it should have won ( for starters, I've not seen the other dio) nor do I think we should on this site. You can't really judge through photo's and I don't think this site is about "mine is better than yours"

Cheers

Henk

:-) :-) Hey, it was a long time ago...my brain can't remember what I did twenty minutes ago! ha ha A BIG D'OH! on my part!

And also made by a very good friend of ours, Folgore, I think.