I am sure by this time, most have read of the poor management of the prison in Iraq. The question is " how would you handle the situation?" What would you do to manage this crisis?
thanks
DJ

DJ,

for me this is too much a current events question and wouldnt like to comment as these sorts of things ofen attract controversial replies

cheers

joe

One wonder's where the "leadership" of this unit had it's head. I say UCMJ all their butts, from Joe Snuffy to the top MP at the prison. Now it makes me even more convinced MPs were stooges. (Trust me, I am being nice)

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This situation sickens me like you can't believe. To see these disgusting people doing that to those 'prisoners' makes my blood boil. I am so angry that words can't describe it.

Those photos are so horrible to me. To see some 5 foot tall woman - I'd use the B word with an F word in front of it - pointing and laughing at naked men with executioners masks over their heads is so revolting and nasty.

Why would people want to act like this? It is an absolute disgrace and disaster for the US. I spend time in the Middle East, I know what this will do.

Hard as it may be for people to believe, they are not monsters over there. Like anywhere else there are a few bad people but mostly good and decent folks who just want to do their thing. This will go a long way to further ruin any credibility we have in the Arab and Muslim world. I can see the posters now. I'm spending a couple months in the West Bank this fall and dread things like this.

I'll tell you what I would do to those found guilty; (forget the 'folowing orders' crap, those people were having a great time doing it) I'd strip them of their citizenship and boot them out the door if not hang them from an Iraqi telephone pole. An example needs to be made and people need to get their heads out of the sands.

I can't believe how simple, mean, and wrongly these 'soldiers' acted. I hope this is followed to the top and if Rumsfeld needs to resign, see you later pal.

For all the 'cultural sensitivity' American claim to have, this is an outrage. Maybe if people turned off the boob tube and learned a thing or two about the real world we could avoid these situations.

Sorry, but this is very serious and I think we have only brushed the tip of the iceburg so far.

God, that woman in those photos make me so angry! Who the hell did she think she was?

Sorry about this, but it is an important issue and so bad for everyone!

Steve

Joe-- this is an example of crisis management. The basic question implies not only your reaction, but more importantly, what would you now do. We faced this same type of activity in the closing days of the Korean War. So, what I am looking for is a response that discusses what would you do now. This is not going to go away.
DJ

It totally sucks!! Not only for the black eye for US Army and the USA, but for the Army Reserve, of which I am a member.

It just reinforces some of my past impressions of MPs, mostly negative.

I also know the former senior MP, the BG that was relieved, and I am sorely disappointed in her going around the TV networks blaming the MI community, right or wrong. As the saying goes: "When in command, command!!"

UCMJ actions will not be enough, but that is all we can do. Damage control wil be extremely difficult. Watch out if the guilty bastards run into some "REAL" American soldiers - their bodies may never be found! They have just endangered every other soldier in theater, and around the world, where terrorists roam.

Steve-- you are right on the mark. This is an important issue that one can draw from histrory to fram a response. As I indicated to Joe, we need to not only hear your outrage but also what you would do about it. The Korean War provides us a graphic example of this type of crisis. What would you now do. You seem to believe that Rumsfeld's resignation is in order. Where do we go from there?
DJ

DJ,

i am aware this will not go away, and im sure more revelations will follow.

my initial thoughts were that there would be all sorts of inflammitory comments, but as is usual for the history club regulars the posts so far are thoughtful and intelligent so heres my 2 cents as you americans say!

the small number of soldiers involved in this very shameful activity should be punished severely. they have brought shame on their regiments, army and country. and the implications of their actions are far reaching. they have given fuel to the fires of hatred felt by many in the middle east towards america and its allies.

i personally think that they should be punished as set out in the geneva convention. and the leadership that allowed them to act this way should also recieve in the very least a thorough investigation into its conduct and practices.

as a side note, you may or may not be aware there is currently a major investigation being carried out by british forces into the conduct of our soldiers.

one of the tabloid newspapers published several (in my educated opinion FALSE) pictures of british soldiers beating and urinating on an iraqi POW. even if these pictures are false then there is also cause for concern from our side too

cheers

joe

Joe-- you are certainly responding in the manner I anticipated. We have a problem here that most folks say:
1. demands punishment for those involved
2. someone outside the prison compound bears responsibility
I think these are the main points people are getting across. Now, we had several dandy "scandals" involving the Army that should allow us to discuss what worked and did not work in regards to handlng the incident.
In Korea at the end of the war, we had a large POW rebellion. To quell it, we sent armed troops in there to disarm the communist and restore order. We also had the Aberdeen sex scandal wherein male drill sergeant were sexual involved with female trainees. In the case of Korea, we did the right thing by using force to put down a rebellion. On the other hand, IMHO, we blew the Aberdeen case. The Army established an 800 number to receive complaints thus completely by-passing the chain of command. We had investigator all over the place tracking down the tales left on the 800 number. What should have been done was for the Chief of Staff of the Army to tell his subordinates to investigate and report back to him on what happened and what they were going to do to resolve it. Instead, we conducted large show trials and sent people packing to jail some under some very questionable circumstances. We then appointed a general to oversee training and that was the end of the crisis. This being an election year in the US, I doubt this will go away without some sort of criminal (highly justified) proceedings. My concern is that some of the innocent will be herded into the typical investigation pattern and tell tales and produce "guilty" people at a rate that would make Stalin's secret police green with envy. My point is that history should clearly teach us that we need not panic. Let's do this right from the start rather than rush to shun everyone off to prison. So the question remains, what would you do?
DJ

I'm bothered by the lawyers who are already making the rounds of the news shows.

All the people in the photos seem to have lawyers now and are blamming higher-ups or some intelligence agency. This is quickly going to turn into a legal fiasco with blame going in any and all directions.

This is also going to stretch into Afghanistan, down in Cuba, etc. Anyone who has a gripe now has validity to their arguments. Somone in NY is now claiming similar things happened to him after 9/11.

I don't know how military justice will be able to solve this when it has already gotten into the public arena.

Hopefully, there will be one or two people that step up and take responsibility for their actions. I doubt it, but I hope there are people of true character involved.

Look, I'm sure this happened in the past in other places. But, that doesn't diminsh this.

New photos coming out today show a naked guy being led around on a leash by some woman with a big grin on her silly face. Why have women guards in a male prison population? Who would dream this up and then decide to take photos of it? Were they planning on sharing the pictures with their friends or maybe their kids?

From what I have heard, these were just Iraqis picked up in sweeps.

I think there will have to be some serious punishment and results that can be shown if we are to try and repair this.

Steve

Once again, I see the discussion pointing out three things:
1. identify the crisis
2. isolate the crisis
3. manage the crisis
Now, we need to start with identifying the crisis. Need to determine what we can and cannot do regarding the situation. What is the crisis here? How to properly run a military prison? Or, to what extent do you punish those who misran (is that a word?) a prison?
DJ

It's always someone else's fault. That's the current American way. And if we can pin in on the president then it's even better.

IMO, there is not excuse for the what those guards did. Even if someone asked them to soften up the prisoners, I still can see how they thought up the twisted activities that they were doing. And if I was ordered to do some sick stuff like that then I would rather face UCMJ then do any of that twisted stuff.

The horrible part is what this incident does to the troops that are honorable in the eyes of the locals and the Arab world. Al Queda couldn't have asked for a better recruitment campaign.

It would have been nice if 60 Minutes would have sat on the story in the interest of the nation but that's a long shot.

Paul

The images are terrible. However, the administration is following proper protocal. Suspend the soldiers in questions and investigate. Once this is finished there will prpbably be soldiers being tried, and if found guilty being given the appropriate punishment.

The one thing I detest are the politicos who are gunning for the President using this as another excuse to be critical of the war and the President.

The Army already knows how to operate PW camps and military prisons. What needs to be done, in my partially trained mind (completed MP qualification course, but never branched MP), is to separate PWs (or as now called "detainees") from the criminals they picked up from civilian authorities. Then they need to establish separate intelligence interrogation facilities for the MI phase.

They were using MPs to help with the intelligence-related interrogations. There needs to be a separation of responsibility between housing and securing the PWs/internees and conducting the interrogations and the twain should never meet except to pass individuals from one facility to the other.

What happended to accountability of the internees? That is a basic military function. How did the MPs get to take the internees out of their cells without alerting someone, somewhere in the facility. Overall control of the facility was obviously lacking.

The Army has already taken most of the measures: Investigations have been intiated and many completed. Personnel, to include the Brigade Commander have been relieved, and the former commander of the GITMO facility has been brought in to straigthen out the mess.

A problem still exists in the USA in that due to delay in word getting up the chain, it appears DoD was conducting a cover-up. But today it is very difficult for DoD to brief Congress during an ongoing investigation, as there are too many in Congress without the character to hold that info until investigation is complete.

for me sniper and greatbrit said it all.for those who say it has happened before thats true ,but it does'nt justify it and damn it it does'nt make it right. i mean come on we're supposed to set the example people!

Well, I am following your expression of disgust. This is beyond question. Now what do we do? I see from the responses that most recommend: restore military discipline and control of the facility, separate detainees from criminals, investigate, prosecute and conduct media blitz to contain the incident. What else do you feel should be done to isolate the incident?
DJ

I am dreading hearing the phrase " I was only following orders". Talk about passing the buck. I also hope that all the blame isn't focused on a single woman, lets not forget there are many other soldiers who commited crimes. It seems that all the media has been focusing on pictures with her in them.

I feel that all involed should be punished, like stated before, follow the Geneva converntions and punish them....this is another aspect of war, and hopefully it will make Americans take a step back and realive that--not that I am condoning what was done.

It is horrible and I am disgusted and angry.

Sean

I respectfully enter this thread - though it seems like a Current Events-type situation...

I do not think the US should contain this "issue" at all. Contrary, I think the investigation, evaluation, and resolution should be handled as publicly as possible.

I do not think anymore confidential proceedings, refusal of sharing information with Congressional Committee, or curbing of media coverage is beneficial.

If the allegations are true, if the desire by the Defense Department to keep this out of the "public eye" is true, if these orders came up from as high as Donald Rumsfeld himself are true - then let it be known.

I was thoroughly disgusted with the "Chicken Hawk" tag that was allowed to be tossed out there during an Election Year. This should have been embarrassing to every single American, regardless of political affiliation. The same "Chicken Hawk" fervor is now taking place again, hidden under the banner of righteous indignation. I have my concerns about whether all the images are "legitimate" or not, but I don't think it is all untrue. Contrary, I feel these things did happen.

The question really is why and how it was allowed to occur and continue. In the desire to lay blame for political trumping - no one is addressing the real issue of the situation(s) over there that set this stage. I know from service in the military that when you're being shot at in a hostile situation and you cannot tell from one moment to the next who's friend or foe - that has got to take a toll. It leads me to question how the troops are being taken care of and rotated around during their mission when there is no "frontline" and everywhere is a danger zone and death can and does come swiftly and with little warning.

What does that do and what is happening to their psyche(s). Are we "torturing" our own troops with ever-extending service over there in this conflict? Are we creating the stage for these types of atrocities through current engagement and containment military policies? Is there another approach to meeting the objectives we've set for ourselves in Iraq?

Yes - most definitely some heads should figuratively roll. But, I'm not wanting that to be the end of the "crisis". I want what happening to our troops over there to come out and be handled with the same "zeal" that the media takes in Election Year scandal coverage.

From my perspective in my little corner of the world, this is becoming a very frightening situation for the troops that are there, and I hasten to make any further comparison to past conflicts...

I guess, in short, is we should open up as many cans of worms as possible this time and deal with them. 'Deal' meaning fix what we can, address what we can, solve what is not working, and keep doing what is. If failure truly means not taking effective action to change a situation to meet a desired outcome - then we will surely 'fail' by hiding the issue. I don't have much faith in solving this type of problem behind the doors of the Pentagon because this is a "human condition". I think Human Beings should be employed more to help in that type of a situation. The US Goverment is a pretty big machine, but can use all the help it gets, inside and out. No isolation of the issue.

The British Government is dealing with the same allegations. I would not be surprised, nor slighted, if we sought out the advice and coordination with our ally in this matter. This shouldn't become a "face-saving" approach, but one that really shows courage and strength to deal with this type of disgrace like the mature society we hold ourselves to be.

Never did I think about my own actions and how they impacted the United States while a Military Policeman in uniform more than now watching what's unfurling...

Gunnie

My good Friend Gunny-- long time no hear. As always your remarks cause me to respond. When one discusses crisis management three things must be done to prevent total chaos. I enumerated these in a previous posting. They are: identify the crisis (is it training, oversight, or what?) next isolate the crisis (while holding public hearings, stay on track or this becomes an election year ploy) and lastly manage the crisis (which is not to say sweep it under the rug). Those are the mechanics for any crisis. We are discussing this issue because we have historical precedence to say how we handled similiar situations. I once again, call attention to the prison riots in Korea at the end of the war. We had over 150,000 prisoners incarcerated on an island off the coast of Korea. They started a confrontation with US forces which was ineptly handled before it got the attention of the responsible commanders. No one tried to hide the fact that it happened, but they did contain the incident and bring it to closure. The incidents in question need to be examined and people held accountable. The real tragedy is that clear signs (Red Cross reports, internal investigations, etc.) pointed to this disaster happening. Someone ignored a ticking bomb and this is the result.
DJ

Again I must say that we are, unfortunately, only at the start of this. I think there is a lot more that will be surfacing and it is not going to be pretty.

Look, I realize that things happen that shouldn't, it's a sad fact of life and war. This is big time bad though.

There may be murder charges, rape charges, who knows what heads will role. And think of all the bogus stuff that will begin to appear in the worlds press - it will be an orgy of anti-American frenzy...

What is comparable in WWII?

Steve

There is something else going on at this time, that I can't help but feel is somehow connected...

In the din over this Prison Crisis - no one is covering or shouting-about the UN and the Food-for-Oil scandal that has been unsurfaced. I remember the Clinton Administration's "Wag the Dog" flap - but this is as questionable a "timing" as I've seen.

Are they connected? Is it coincidence? Is our media slanted to the extreme-side of news coverage?

Back to the comparison with the Korean Situation, I think that the responsible parties will be brought to justice. I think the Pentagon already knows what and why things happened - and are making the changes. I don't know that we'll "see" them all. I don't sound totally convincing and confident because I don't think everything that happened has been uncovered yet. We just recently found out, painfully, how broke the communication really is between agencies entrusted to protect the US in the 9/11 Commission's investigations. Absolutely certainly there is information that will never see the light of day that has been shared with the Panel. This could be another example of a deeper problem...

Perhaps what should be done (if it isn't happening already) is digging down deeper to see if the roots of this problem are common roots being found with the insistence of the 9/11 Commission...

Gunnie

In case you guys haven't seen it yet, the text of the Article 15-2 investigation is posted on MSNBC's website: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

Total breakdown in leadership in the MP brgade led to these incidents and let them continue. Heads will roll.

I believe Bob has once again hit the nail on the head. I read MG Taguba's comments and they clearly indicate the total lack of discipline in the MP Brigade guarding the prison.. So, in my never ending attempt to identify what is the "crisis" I point to a lack of command and control as the first problem to be resolved. Second, you need to organize the prison population (I think Jeff brought this up) separate the detainees from the criminals and the true bad guys. Lastly, let's stop the self-flagellation drill. I know things are not rosy, but this continual "no one likes us" is not doing anything to resolve the situation. Those who do not like us, will never like us. Get over it and drive on. Rumsfeld is on the hot seat and I look forward to hearing what Fox News reports....
DJ