Initially I bless the Army for doing the right thing from the beginning after it was discovered. Everyone up to the one star general should be punished by a court marshall which Was /is going to happen not at media prompting or the President but by the US Army which handled its own affairs from get go. I curse "OUR" media for making a mountain out of a molehill and I guess the event which happened today proves me right. I believe in the sedition laws which state aiding and abetting our enemies and these are times I woud like to award that honor to the press. Where was the outrage when 9-11 occured I saw dancing in the street. Where was the outrage when the four americans were tortured, killed and dragged through the streets. Humiliating prisoners?....PUT THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE. So if your blood boiled at seeing pictures of naked Iraqui prisoners...wht happend when they killed OUR Civilians?

Now that I've gotten my outrage out.. I would like to fall back on my favorite quote "those who don't learn......... repeat it. We have entered a region here territorial fighting has been going on for 4000+ years. The Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians,Turks, Arabs, Jews/Israelis and of course all the European Crusades, French and British empires have all tried to hold sway here. As Steve (Sniper) says we don't belong there as those people don't want the same things as we do. I read several things on AOL postings. Revenge law is how they put it. The old eye for an eye. This sort of thinking is wrong in the American eye but not in the Arab eye. To get back to DJ'S original line. I think the Military has conducted this properly. They found out and immediatly went about the business of correcting it. Unfortunately the damage has been done and I fear that to the people we are trying to help, well our credibility is totaly shot and nothing we do from now on will repair it

Blaster,

I agree with your outrage. They have a video tape of a guys head being chopped of and it certainly won't stay in the news as long as the prison abuse. Look, your 911 analogy is right on. But, it sometimes seems like many people have moved on.

Unfortunately it seems that the world does not hold all people to the same standards. I don't think this is the fault of the media. That's a business and it's run as such. This prison story is huge and it sells.

I don't yet know if the military has handled this properly. I see people taking 'responsibility' but what does that mean. Rumsfeld says he takes 'responsibility' and then the next day he's standing next to the President accepting praise for his good work. So responsibility means no consequence?

In WW2 we used the attrocities commited by the Japanese and the Germans to help fuel our war efforts. Now, the extremists will use the actions of these American 'soldiers' for there own Jihad. It sucks. But, it was our fault, not CNN or NBC. If nothing happened, there would be no story.

One more thing, that photo posted of the grave in Gaza makes me cringe beyond belief.

Steve

blaster76,
I understand how angry you are, but I feel that there was plenty of anger in the US after 9/11. I also think that 9/11 brought a whole host of feeling to Americans that many of us have never expirienced on a nation wide level(recently that is) anger, fear, shock. I do feel that the media sucks beyond words, its just a business, and selling is the name of the game.

I'm not sure if you meant Americans dancing in the streets after 9/11, but even so, I feel how anger you are because I have similar feelings-- at least we can talk hear about them in a civilized manner amongst friends.

Sean

Believe me, I am making great efforts to control my rage, I don't want to get a warning or cause this thread to get cut. My anger is totally focused on the irresponsible journalism in this country (CNN included). It is also directed at the Arab world. When 9-11 occured, the entire Arab world it seemed was dancing in the street I saw multiple scenes of this. We did not go out and chop heads off innocent Arabs. We also received no apologies. Two months ago 4 of our civilians were tortured, murdered and dragged through the streets. Once again no heads of innocent Arab civilians chopped off and hey big surprise here No apolgies "This is the work of a few sick individuals" is what I here. So some of our soldiers abuse a few prisioners. We don't dance in the streets instead we are totally outraged ourselves (myself included). This is the work of a few not the majority. OUR Press plays this into a major episode and MAKES THE POINT of saying that Bush DID NOT APOLOGISE. He then does so. Now a few sick individuals BEHEAD another innocent Civilian I still hear no apology from the Arab world. I watch the news tonite and OH big surprise here...the media is more focused on the prison abuses then the beheading. I read a post from a friend that states that one of the Prime tenets of the Islamic faith is to Kill the unbeliever, the Infidel to get to heaven. Not having read the Koran, I hope this is extreme rightist dogma, but believe me, it plays into my rage. At this point in time, I would gladly go punch Peter Jennings or Dan Rather or any other of these journalists in the nose and say that is for the guy that got his head chopped off.

Now I am going to go to my workbench and work on my M-47 Patton tank which is why I joined this club in the firs place.

Couldn't agree more. Because of those abuses, it made the coalition as worse as the terrorists they are fighting. Stooping down to their level. They may do the same thing to any westerner, military or civilian, they capture or abduct, much worse if any women are around.

We are seeing a common commentary here on "public trials." Generally speaking, every military proceeding is open to the public. Given that these will probably be Special Courts Martials there will be no need for a pre trial investigation. Those investigation are conducted when an individual is charged under General Courts Martial proceedings. What's all this mean? There is a likelyhood that there will be a plea bargain wherein the accussed admits guilt and is sentenced by a military judge. This will mean that the trial will be short and sweet. Now, if there is substantial question as to the guilt of the individual we are going to see the typical "I was following orders" defense. There is not a courts martial in the United States Army that will buy that useless argument and the person in question will be punished. If you get the Washington Post there is an opinion piece by the former commander of the MP Brigade that is illuminating. He supports and I fall back on my original argument that this is a breakdown of discipline by a small number of people who thought they could get away with anything. That view of invincibility was nurtured by a thoughtless chain of command.
DJ

Just to add another twist to this conversation - I keep hearing the phrase, "The prisoners should be treated under the Geneva Convention." If I recall correctly, many of those in the prison in question do not qualify as prisoners of war under the numerous conventions. Some are criminals recaptured after Hussein had emptied his prisons during the war - they should not be in the same facility, or at least segregated from the terrorists, and treated under civil law. The terrorists, brigand's, etc., unless in the employ of the former Iraqi Army are not entitled to the same protections of the Geneva and Hague conventions as legitimate prisoners of war (those of a recognized, organized military organization fighting in a recognizeable uniform).

Now all that being said - the actions of the MPs in question are not excusable. Even if it is proven that proper training (individual and collective) in the operations of a confinement faciltiy (which this was, it was not a PW Camp) was never conducted is valid, the soldiers

(NOTE: The new Chief of Staff of the Army stated that when referring to soldiers, the word Soldiers will be capitalized - these guys don't deserve the destinction)

violated at least three of the Army's seven values:
RESPECT: Treat people as they should be treated
HONOR: Live up to the Army Values
INTEGRITY: Do what's right, legally and morally

Next, they also violated the Soldier's Code:

ITEM II - I will treat others with dignity and expect others to do the same
ITEM III - I will honor my Country, the Army, my unit and my fellow Soldiers by living the Army values
ITEM IV - No matter what situation I am in, I will never do anything for pleasure, profit, or personal safety which will disgrace my uniform, my unit, or my Country

These two "Codes" are the stuff of basic training. Every Soldier received a dog tag and/or a plastic card with the Army values and the Soldier Code printed and sealed. I just took my card out of my wallet to reference for this reply.

I just glad I am not a member of that unit and will not be wearing the 800th MP Brigade patch. The one MP Company just destroyed all the good work that former members of the 800th MP Brigade did during the Gulf War in '90-91. There is an MP unit in my reserve center that received a certificate from the International Red Cross for their cooperation while operating their PW camp in 1991. They have now been stained (those that where the 800th patch as a combat patch) by this action.

'nuff said!

Jeff-- you are so correct . This discussion has been most helpful to me in appreciating two things: First, our Nation is not soiled. We will investigate, prosecute and punish the guilty. Second, the individuals involved (I refused to recognize them as members of my profession) are in no way indicative of the outstanding Soldiers who daily serve this Country. I am as proud as you guys to be an American and we can fix whatever broke.
RLTW!
DJ

PS-- for all you none Ranger qualified Officers RLTW stands for "Rangers Lead The Way!"

Complete change of heart on the media.

The way they are covering this Nick Berg execution is REVOLTING. Having some reporter tell the family what happened to their son on the front lawn of their house and then filming their grief and exploiting their horrible pain is SICKENING!

Of course these 'reporters' won't show the video (which I saw and was so bad I almost threw up) yet they keep on doing everything in their power to constantly describe the awful event. It is sick and they are making money off of what I consider the worst form of pornography - snuff films.

They have no trouble showing the prison abuse yet won't allow people to see the execution. We can't see nudity on TV but we can describe in the sickest, goriest detail the death of a real live human. We can have crime shows like CSI that glamorize brutality yet we won't show what really happens when a real person is executed like an animal.

They will keep showing the prisoner abuse photos until we can't take it anymore then go stick a camera into the face of the parents of that poor Berg. I hope they can sleep at night.

Sorry about this. This has been a bad few days and I feel like just giving up on the whole thing...

Steve

I'm going to paint my Cromwell and think about the 'good old days' that probably weren't so good either.

Guys-- I am closing this one down. We have had a thoughtfully discussion on an important topic with rational input from all. I thank you for staying on topic and supplying each of us the wisdom of your observations.
Well done!
DJ