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The Prison Crisis
Ranger74
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Posted: Friday, May 07, 2004 - 09:52 AM UTC
Onto my soap box!!

One thing that I do not want to happen, is what happened after the Aberdeen fiasco. After Aberdeen all Armmy units now have to undergo up to four hours, annually, of "Consideration of Others" and "Prevention of Sexual Harassment" training, plus quarterly "sensing sessions". Now this may be OK for the active army, where this incident occurred, because they have 365 days a year to train, but for the Amry Reserve it is a major waste of valuable training time, especially now that it is forcast that 90% of the USAR will have been mobilized by this time next year.

What happened after Aberdeen, was a sense that the entire Army was guily, at least the males. I just hope that we do not have to now waste more valauble drill time with Geneva Convention training.

I have a personal philosophy that a lot of this type training, Code of Conduct, Geneva Convention, Consideration of Others, Sexual Harassment, etc., should be given at Basic Training, when possible problems arise (then only where the problem exists), or when potential situations arise, i.e., upon mobilization or deployment. I still remeber the 18 hours of mandantory anti-racism training all new soldiers to the 5th Mech Division had to undergo upon assignement (1976). It solved nothing.

Off of my soap box
We use too much "feel good" band-aid training in the military, trying to make up for society's ills.
210cav
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Posted: Friday, May 07, 2004 - 12:50 PM UTC
Here I go. The charges do not reflect adversely on the Army. They reflect poorly on the unit in question. It is not our Country that has done a repugnant series of acts. Several people who are in the military did criminal actions that will be investigated and tried before a court of law, if required. This is the way a democracy operates. There are no secret trials and the innocent must be protected. I expect our Country to do no less than these reasonable actions. If the remainder of the world thinks this is insufficient....tough cookie.
DJ
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Friday, May 07, 2004 - 05:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I am sure by this time, most have read of the poor management of the prison in Iraq. The question is " how would you handle the situation?" What would you do to manage this crisis?
thanks
DJ


If it were me, I would immediately take action. Suspend, investigate and if guilty, prosecute the offenders. I'd say the OIC should have run a tight ship. It is apparent that we know how the Iraqis (and probably the entire Muslim world) will react to this and this will make them more resentful and embolden the terrorists, making them heroes all the more.

What those MP's did is conduct unbecoming of a United States soldier. The GI has often been a heroic icon not only to Americans but to others around the world as they fought and die so that others may live and be free. These actions threaten that image.

There are foreign hostages there too. What if the captors did the same thing to them? This tit for tat thing would make things even worse.

The Coalition should hold the moral high ground if they are to really win. It's not enough to vanquish the enemy with force of arms but there is the need to show who is right.
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Friday, May 07, 2004 - 05:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I am dreading hearing the phrase " I was only following orders". Talk about passing the buck. I also hope that all the blame isn't focused on a single woman, lets not forget there are many other soldiers who commited crimes. It seems that all the media has been focusing on pictures with her in them.

I feel that all involed should be punished, like stated before, follow the Geneva converntions and punish them....this is another aspect of war, and hopefully it will make Americans take a step back and realive that--not that I am condoning what was done.

It is horrible and I am disgusted and angry.

Sean


From what I saw in the photos, it appears orders were not necessary. They were doing it at their leisure.
SonOfAVet
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Posted: Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:58 PM UTC
4-Eyes71,

Some of these people who commited these crimes said they were told to "soften up" the prisoners prior to interigation--that is what I am referring too.

Sean

phoenix-1
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Posted: Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Is our media slanted to the extreme-side of news coverage?

Absolutely. In any media organization, the main goal is to sell their station and the only way to do this is to create news stories that strike at human emotions. Think of all of the examples, good and bad: the firefighters raising the American flag at the WTC; the fall of Saddam Hussein's statue in the heart of Baghdad; the bodies of dead civilians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Israel; and now this. While conveying these pictures is not altogether wrong, it becomes wrong when news organizations put their own spin on the stories. With this, the American media will split between liberal and conservative, one saying that this is what happens when the president is allowed to fight wars without pretense while the other will say that the president had nothing to do with this event but will punish those responsible. Arab media, especially Al Jazerra, will say that this is why the insurgents and the Iraqi people must rise up and remove the "infidels" or some other religious bull crap. Meanwhile, the US troops in country suffer and the US is hurt in the world view.

Now what to do with this? I say that the US turn over all power in ruling the detainment camps over to the UN. This I think would put the US soldiers out and a more neutral force in place to defend the camps. It would also help because the US would be able to put actual peacekeepers into place.

Meanwhile, the troops that did this to the Iraqi prisoners would be sent to trial but not a US trial or congressional hearing. My plan would include putting the troops and their superior officers on trial at the War Crimes Tribunal. Yes I understand that this is the same tribunal that dealt with monsters like Milosevic but this would place the trial in a world theater where opinion about the US wouldn't be hurt more if the soldiers were acquited. In the event of a US trial, the same news media groups that I talked about before would spin their own stories about the trial and would most likely end with the conclusion that the US is helping their own and that the rightfully quilty were acquited.

Just my two cents... OK so maybe it was closer to ten.
Kyle
sniper
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Posted: Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 06:40 AM UTC
Yeah, it's all lousy stuff. I think this will take a long time to settle. I guess the investigation has been underway since January.

But, this is a great thread. Obviously a lot of interest from all of the page views and good responses; opinionated and passionate but very respectfull. Take a look at some other sites and you won't see a good discussion.

I know the question about mixed sex units is already coming up. The woman seen in many photos is now pregnant with the other guy in the photos baby. Guess she was just visiting the prison to see her boyfriend!

Do you guys in, or now out of, the military have some opinions on the gender issue? Could this be a potential problem for the military? Why have women with male prisoners? Especially in the Muslim world.

Remember, part of bin Laden's beef is claimed to be foreign women on sacred Saudi soil.

Not making a judgment, only asking questions.

Steve
Easy_Co
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Posted: Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 07:06 AM UTC
Ive read the following pages with great interest being a retired policeman and one time prison officer.My first thoughts are lack of proffesional conduct, the people in these photo's do not look like m.p.'s to me I dress like that when im doing my garden,personal cameras in a prison whats that all about,If I took photo's of my prisoners after I had nicked them I would have been dismised on the spot. Where were the Junior officers, senior n.c.o's where is the military discipline.I am not having a crack at the u.s. military I am very pro u.s. but the command has got to get its act together i think some 'a' has to be kicked here, in my eyes an M.P. should set an example one of my friends is an ex m.p. he's sixty five fit as a fiddle his back is ramrod straight and no one messes with him, the guy commands respect as he says they may not f...g like me but they f....g well respect me, its a tough job that has to be handled by professionals.we have handed every would be terrorist a propaganda cue and as for the photo's in the daily Mirror over here well the editor needs shooting the bloody things are so obviously staged even my cat could see it but even if the whole sorry turn out is proved false the damage is done I bet Osmana is rubbing his hands together and having a good chuckle.sorry to ramble on but this one cut me to the bone.
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 11:37 PM UTC
Friends-- once again, Easy Co. reflects the comments of many participants. The problem statement (crisis) is two fold, IMHO, one--lack of discipline within the military police and interrogation personnel and two --- failure to check on activities. These are both correctable failures. The thing that drives me up a wall is the self-flagellation drill run through the media. This "We're so bad" moaning is not the problem and is not doing anyone any good. It is not solving anything. Any human being is quite capable of acting with either the greatest kindness or worse cruelties imaginable. It is not a nationalistic condition. That's they way human beings are regardless of country. What the administration needs to do is get the focus back on the problem (discipline and supervision). Try the people accussed of these excesses and get on with life.
DJ
sniper
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Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 02:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The thing that drives me up a wall is the self-flagellation drill run through the media. This "We're so bad" moaning is not the problem and is not doing anyone any good.

....

What the administration needs to do is get the focus back on the problem (discipline and supervision). Try the people accussed of these excesses and get on with life.
DJ


DJ,

I would agree, but all of our rhetoric in the past few years is that we are somehow 'better' than other people. Our policy has been sold on some sort of moral high ground, not just on military expediency.

In many ways we have set ourselves up for failure. The war was offered as a battle for liberation and social change in a region; we constantly told the world to follow the example of our values and ideals.

That's why this is so far beyond a mere military/discipline issue. In a rational world it would be, unfortunately the world does not act in a rational way. Really, big deal; some bastard soldiers acted in a very sick way. Throw them in jail and misplace the key. Too bad that's not the solution here.

The people that already mistrust or hate us will not care if a few soldiers are sent to prison - the damage has been done.

We have to start realizing that waving flags and singing 'Proud to be an American' are not virtues. We have to realize that we can't save people that do not want to be saved. Not all people care about Wal Mart and Thomas Jefferson.

I think the big issue is using military as a tool for social change. Our military is there to fight and win wars, not build new societies.

If the U.S. loses it moral authority, what's left? It was right, morally, to get rid of Saddam, just as it should have been right to get involved in genocide in Africa. Of that I have no question. But, we are beyond that now. Introspection has been forced upon us.

The media is not to blame here. We should instead see it as a mirror. Maybe the image staring back at us is not one we can face any longer.

Steve
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 04:18 AM UTC
Steve-- marvelous response. I could not agree with you more. If the military is not the instrument of social change (promote democracy by building, organizing, etc) who is? A previous contributor suggested the UN, which as the always insightful Gunnie pointed out, is not exactly a standard bearer for doing things correctly. This is a tough nut to crack. I trust that within a week. the steam in this story will lose its appeal and we will probably then get things corrected and people punished for that they did wrong. I have been in too many of these "investigation" to lack an appreciation that the innocent often suffer more than the guilty.
DJ
PS-- good discussion going here
Bugbrains
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Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:26 PM UTC
"If the military is not the instrument of social change (promote democracy by building, organizing, etc) who is?"

That is a really tough question and one that will not be resolved without a lot of discussion, research and contemplation. But here goes any way! One place to start would be to start pressuring all governments to stop selling weapons as a bulk commodity. Democracy cannot grow if every strong-man or would be strong-man has easy access to rockets, guns, grenades, etc. Cutting back the trade will be extremely hard diplomatically but it is goal worth chasing. Sure, genocides like Rwanda will still happen but maybe some of the insugencies that have stalled some countries development for decades could be stopped.

Another place to start is to get global leaders , both in the political sphere and the corporate sphere to stop propping up gangsters, strong-men, and dictators financially. Sure we can make a lot of money making deals (bribes) with repressive regimes for easy access to oil, minerals, diamonds, regional influence but it is morally wrong to do so and it should be stopped. These bribes go to a very few who stay in power due to the weapons that the money buys them . Please note that I'm not talking about the U.S. only, this money flow comes from a lot of countries (democratic and non-democratic) but it will only stop when people, CEO's, investors, and elected officials decide that morals mean more than investment income and a slice of the pie. Part of this is education...we need to start finding out about what our intitutions are doing out there, who they are dealing with, and what is happening to the societies we deal with, e.g. Talisman Oil activities in the Sudan. Home policies also have an effect on the world for example cotton subsidies at home have a nasty effect on third world farmers.

Nothing is going to get solved overnight but nothing will ever change if we don't change the way we deal with the third-world.

One comment about the prison-abuse situation. the administration's case has not been helped by the cloud of secrecy that surrounds it's activities in Gitmo, Afghanistan and Iraq. I partly blame the media for this...I am not seeing many independent reports, just replays of goverment and military press conferences, and the feeding frenzies when something big happens. Are there any independent (non-partisan) reporters going "behind the lines" to find out what is really happening?


Thanx for your time
Bugbrains
210cav
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:29 AM UTC
Bugbrains-- interesting commentary. I'd comment that it is too idealistic for me to envision, but then again that is why there is progress in the world. I am sure the calls toe resignation of the Secretary of Defense will reach a fever pitch this week. If the President will hold his ground the benefits will far outweigh the negative aspects. We'll see.
DJ
Bugbrains
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:59 AM UTC
Dj,

Yeah, it is idealistic...I get that way sometimes....but I don't see how the situation can change much if we don't put our hearts and minds into this and really change how we view the world situation. Unfiltered information from the media and our leaders would help.

PB
210cav
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:01 AM UTC
PB-- I can go along with your recommendation if we limit the scope of who and what constitutes a "world leader." If it is the security council of the UN, you have one set of rules and challenges. If it is diplomacy and looking for a coalition solution, you are governed by another set of rules and procedures. Figuring out how to do it is as taxing as doing it. Convening a summit might be a route that is appealig. But, once again, who comes and does not? What is your proposal on the mechanics of attaining your desired end-state?
DJ
GSPatton
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 07:48 AM UTC
There is a Failure of command here. I would make very public arrests of those allegedly responsible, followed by very public trials of the accused, follwed by very public convictions and imprisonment.

There is no excuse I can think of that would give rise to acts such as these. The whole rotten mess must be scrubbed clean from the US Armed Forces so in no uncertain terms all soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines know that prisoners will be treated in a manner in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
Bugbrains
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 09:27 AM UTC
DJ. Thanx for the discussion,and some good tough questions that require contemplation,

I don't think that any change will be easy but it could be feasible through diplomatic channels. If countries can put together the GATT, WTO, and the land-mine agreement other agreements to start observing and limiting the arms trade are possible. The U.N. would be a good place to start except it has problems right now that need to be addressed before it is fully credible. Maybe the place to get moving on this would be at a G7summit.

Part of the equation is the corporate leaders...the heads of the big multi-nationals have to be involved, companies like BP, Exxon, Shell, GE, Seimens, ABB, nuclear technology companies, etc. they all have a major impact on geo-politics.

Going off-topic in an already off-topic thread,
One thing that has always disturbed me is that germ/chemical warfare technology was reportedly sold or given to Iraq when it was at war with Iran. Once the transfer took place control over that part of the technology was lost. No matter what the immediate benefits of the transfer were thought to be the loss of control was/is a massive risk to global security. That was a bad decision and should not be repeated.
Same thing goes for nuclear technology...why this knowledge is given to less than historically democratic, stable countries or to any foreign country is beyond me. Why have western nations/corporations helped Iran with nuclear power? They have enough oil and natural gas to provide electricity for years and years. Were the plants build so a company could make some profit? Same with North Korea, pure folly.

Discussion is good, maybe if there was more widespread, open-minded public debate of all sides of these issues and less back room dealing and partisan politics some sort of momentum can be created to move forward. Global terrorism is too serious a problem to just leave to "politics as usual" for resolution.

PB

I'll shut-up now and climb off my soap-box. Time to paint some models
phoenix-1
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:51 AM UTC
PB, I agree that the corporations of the world play a huge role in politics and I agree wholeheartedly with a removal of some, if not all, of their influence in politics. However, as Eisenhower pointed out, iron triangles are too set in the government to even begin to try to remove them. As long as interest groups influence Congress, Congress writes the laws, and the bureaucracy enforces them, any attempts to remove those unrightfully in power will be futile. Meanwhile, guys and girls like us get screwed. Just look at your receipt for gas when you go to fill up.
Kyle
210cav
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Posted: Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:40 AM UTC
The breakdown of discipline is the cause of the problem. Restoration of the discipline we pride ourselves on is underway. Someone did not pay attention to methods employed. How far do you go up the chain of command before you satisfy the political blood lust so common in incidents of this type? Is it going to get worse before it gets better? What do you think?
DJ
jason
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 12:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The breakdown of discipline is the cause of the problem.

Sorry to say , but I do disagree , this topic has nothing to do with discipline, these acts couldn't have been committed without approval from the top.
History has enough examples of prison-camp guardians doing worse things than what happened here , there was no talk of lack of discipline then !
When people have total control over other people and the top brass gives them "carte blanche" that is what happens .
Greetz , Phil
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 03:15 AM UTC
Jason,

You are correct that there may be a bigger problem that just the lack of discipline of a hand full of soldiers. DJ is also correct concerning that it is a breakdown in discipline. If the leadership at some level in the system looked the other way and/or condoned the harassment, then the discipline of that leadership was lacking.

So, it is still a failure of discpiline, but at multiple levels.

Jeff
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 03:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The breakdown of discipline is the cause of the problem.

Sorry to say , but I do disagree , this topic has nothing to do with discipline, these acts couldn't have been committed without approval from the top.
History has enough examples of prison-camp guardians doing worse things than what happened here , there was no talk of lack of discipline then !
When people have total control over other people and the top brass gives them "carte blanche" that is what happens .
Greetz , Phil


Phil-- I should have defined discipline in this context. I am referring to that restraint which one subjects themselves to . It is best said "just because you can do it, does not mean you have to do it." This is discipline, it is restraint. This is missing as evidenced by the guards and their interrogators behavior. As you read through this interesting discussion we are conducting, you can see clearly that others are saying the United States set a standard and individuals within the military failed to live up to that standard. I stand by my statement that there was breakdown of discipline.
DJ
sniper
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 04:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The breakdown of discipline is the cause of the problem. Restoration of the discipline we pride ourselves on is underway. Someone did not pay attention to methods employed. How far do you go up the chain of command before you satisfy the political blood lust so common in incidents of this type? Is it going to get worse before it gets better? What do you think?
DJ


DJ,

I just can't believe that this is simply a 'breakdown of discipline' problem. It is much more fundemental and troublesome. If I was the lowest ranking man in the service, I would not sexually abuse naked men in a prison and then take smiling snapshots of the abuse.

Were these people so dumb and depraved that they needed an officer to tell them it was wrong to do this? Look, I understand that force or humiliation is used to get info from prisoners; I'm not that naive. But, what I have seen of this is well beyond that. It is sadistic.

I also have trouble understanding it because our war was against a regieme, not the Iraqi people. These incidents took place this past winter and fall - before people were saying the war has 'gone bad'.

As I have written before there is much more to come. There will be rapes reported and even murders. This is very bad and some court martials will not solve the problem.

No, the cause of the problem is sick individuals engaged in depraved acts. They have done more than shame their country, I believe they have threatened national security. These images are playing 24 hours a day in other parts of the world. This has outraged people more than is being reported in the American press. That's why I believe these people are traitors to their country.

Certainly there was a problem with command. No doubt about that. And if it is military intelligence, well they are pretty stupid if they decided it would be smart to film these activities. But, there comes a time when an individuals morality must take precedence over any orders. There is still a thing as right and wrong.

This is not the behavior of Americans and any soldier, regardless of rank, should know this. When an oath is taken to uphold the Constitution, nowhere does it say that abuse is tolerable.

Oh, I also think we should all be able to see the images. I really think people need to be very informed about this. If we can see TV shows that are nothing but sex and violence (and what I believe is a root cause of many of our social ills) I think we must be allowed to face reality.

This has hurt us all. We ARE better than these acts. We need to start thinking about what our values really are and where our society is headed.

Steve


greatbrit
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 04:57 AM UTC


so this is the result of these sick individuals actions. these are british/Commonwealth war graves in gaza from the great war. hundreds of graves have been defaced and the headstones smashed by palestinian 'militants'(i use the term loosely, i feel scum is more appropriate) in response to the pictures.

granted the pictures stuck to the graves are a mixture of the US ones and the fake british ones, but the impact is still the same.

joe
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 05:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The breakdown of discipline is the cause of the problem. Restoration of the discipline we pride ourselves on is underway. Someone did not pay attention to methods employed. How far do you go up the chain of command before you satisfy the political blood lust so common in incidents of this type? Is it going to get worse before it gets better? What do you think?
DJ


DJ,

I just can't believe that this is simply a 'breakdown of discipline' problem. It is much more fundemental and troublesome. If I was the lowest ranking man in the service, I would not sexually abuse naked men in a prison and then take smiling snapshots of the abuse.

Were these people so dumb and depraved that they needed an officer to tell them it was wrong to do this? Look, I understand that force or humiliation is used to get info from prisoners; I'm not that naive. But, what I have seen of this is well beyond that. It is sadistic.

I also have trouble understanding it because our war was against a regieme, not the Iraqi people. These incidents took place this past winter and fall - before people were saying the war has 'gone bad'.

As I have written before there is much more to come. There will be rapes reported and even murders. This is very bad and some court martials will not solve the problem.

No, the cause of the problem is sick individuals engaged in depraved acts. They have done more than shame their country, I believe they have threatened national security. These images are playing 24 hours a day in other parts of the world. This has outraged people more than is being reported in the American press. That's why I believe these people are traitors to their country.

Certainly there was a problem with command. No doubt about that. And if it is military intelligence, well they are pretty stupid if they decided it would be smart to film these activities. But, there comes a time when an individuals morality must take precedence over any orders. There is still a thing as right and wrong.

This is not the behavior of Americans and any soldier, regardless of rank, should know this. When an oath is taken to uphold the Constitution, nowhere does it say that abuse is tolerable.

Oh, I also think we should all be able to see the images. I really think people need to be very informed about this. If we can see TV shows that are nothing but sex and violence (and what I believe is a root cause of many of our social ills) I think we must be allowed to face reality.

This has hurt us all. We ARE better than these acts. We need to start thinking about what our values really are and where our society is headed.

Steve




Steve-- I buy into what your argument. However, how we cure or address American society's ills is a long range objective. In the short term, we need to come to grips with the crimes committed. I see the immediate problem to be one of the restoration of discipline within the prison system. I want (as do you) our Country to espoused and be judged against a high standard of moral and physical conduct in the administration of detainees. These guys are not in the can for parking tickets. We need better control over the bad guys and to me that means getting everyone on the US side on the same sheet of music. Standards are readily available and we don't need to reinvent the wheel on that issue. I am flabbergasted that someone is sticking to "I was ordered to do it" line of defense. That's idiotic. Restore discipline, investigate, take responsible action against the accussed and move on. What say you?
DJ
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