Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
General discussions about modeling topics.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Fed up with AMS and the people who inspire it
warhog
Member Since: November 26, 2003
entire network: 568 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 02:43 PM UTC
i agree with you 100 percent idiots like that tend to turn alot of people off in our hobby!!!!!you should have layed the guy out!!!!Oh i forgot were in a politically correct world...
Neill
Member Since: May 26, 2003
entire network: 1,255 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 03:32 PM UTC
[quote]AMS
abbr.
Advanced Modellers Syndrome. [quote]
Confession Time: Though I do not suffer from AMS ...
(I’m Scot by heritage, can't see putting good hard cash into all those extra goodies)
I do have “DFS” ...
Yes, the dreaded Detail Freak-idus Syndrome. Nothing you view on my webpage is an add-on. Simply the out of the box kit and my own sick, warped imagination. I know I should stop the madness, but I get a lot of my modeling pleasure from making all that stuff one can buy from ADD-ON kits from scratch.
Is there any hope, Doc...?
John
www.johnneill.com
abbr.
Advanced Modellers Syndrome. [quote]
Confession Time: Though I do not suffer from AMS ...
(I’m Scot by heritage, can't see putting good hard cash into all those extra goodies)
I do have “DFS” ...
Yes, the dreaded Detail Freak-idus Syndrome. Nothing you view on my webpage is an add-on. Simply the out of the box kit and my own sick, warped imagination. I know I should stop the madness, but I get a lot of my modeling pleasure from making all that stuff one can buy from ADD-ON kits from scratch.
Is there any hope, Doc...?
John
www.johnneill.com
kglack43
Member Since: September 18, 2003
entire network: 842 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 03:33 PM UTC
Hmmmmm...sounds like you might have a problem...maybe you should just stop and proceed no further. Just keep hitting your BACK button till the screen sez something like, er, scrapbooking.com or something like that...
Me, and the rest of my friends though, will be happy doing what we do...building kits to OUR satisfaction...not trying to keep up with the jones'...(cause that's NOT OUR NAME.)
So, WE DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT, Alice... We just build and then compare notes on life and the occasional model.
You can meet us for daily note comparisons at Armorama's chat room on MSN. Or, you can sit there an LADY about it if you like...hehehe
(I hate all that extra store bought stuff too, just don't tell anyone...er...wait a minute...I buy my kits from a store...so, I guess I should stop buying the kits from Tamiya and Dragon and etc. etc. etc. and just scratchbuild every little part to each and everyone of the tanks and trucks that I want to build... and maybe I should stop buying store-bought glue and use some kind of animal fat to hold the styrene together...and ...and...)
Uh...uh...uh...ya know? I saw a really cool PE set on Ebay today...think I might just bid onit and try some on my next build.
hehehe
Me, and the rest of my friends though, will be happy doing what we do...building kits to OUR satisfaction...not trying to keep up with the jones'...(cause that's NOT OUR NAME.)
So, WE DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT, Alice... We just build and then compare notes on life and the occasional model.
You can meet us for daily note comparisons at Armorama's chat room on MSN. Or, you can sit there an LADY about it if you like...hehehe
(I hate all that extra store bought stuff too, just don't tell anyone...er...wait a minute...I buy my kits from a store...so, I guess I should stop buying the kits from Tamiya and Dragon and etc. etc. etc. and just scratchbuild every little part to each and everyone of the tanks and trucks that I want to build... and maybe I should stop buying store-bought glue and use some kind of animal fat to hold the styrene together...and ...and...)
Uh...uh...uh...ya know? I saw a really cool PE set on Ebay today...think I might just bid onit and try some on my next build.
hehehe
SS-74
Member Since: May 13, 2002
entire network: 3,271 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 04:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hmmmmm...sounds like you might have a problem...maybe you should just stop and proceed no further. Just keep hitting your BACK button till the screen sez something like, er, scrapbooking.com or something like that...
Me, and the rest of my friends though, will be happy doing what we do...building kits to OUR satisfaction...not trying to keep up with the jones'...(cause that's NOT OUR NAME.)
So, WE DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT, Alice... We just build and then compare notes on life and the occasional model.
You can meet us for daily note comparisons at Armorama's chat room on MSN. Or, you can sit there an LADY about it if you like...hehehe
(I hate all that extra store bought stuff too, just don't tell anyone...er...wait a minute...I buy my kits from a store...so, I guess I should stop buying the kits from Tamiya and Dragon and etc. etc. etc. and just scratchbuild every little part to each and everyone of the tanks and trucks that I want to build... and maybe I should stop buying store-bought glue and use some kind of animal fat to hold the styrene together...and ...and...)
Uh...uh...uh...ya know? I saw a really cool PE set on Ebay today...think I might just bid onit and try some on my next build.
hehehe
Funny, how those that do extensive PE/Resin works never really lady about the OOB builders...
Monte
Member Since: December 08, 2002
entire network: 833 Posts
KitMaker Network: 216 Posts
Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 06:34 PM UTC
Prefering to work in 1/25 scale and always geting slammed for it at shows, my basic responce to all the judges looking for all the "aftermarket add ons" is "have you ever heard of SCRATCH BUILD??"
Since that is pretty much all I have to rely on to "spruce up" a moldel, obviously the convienence of buying parts overshadows the talent of makeing them.
Concidering that I build for my own enjoyment and not the approval of others the only real opinion I worry about is my own.
Since that is pretty much all I have to rely on to "spruce up" a moldel, obviously the convienence of buying parts overshadows the talent of makeing them.
Concidering that I build for my own enjoyment and not the approval of others the only real opinion I worry about is my own.
zer0_co0l
Member Since: January 04, 2003
entire network: 1,432 Posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 08:07 PM UTC
I just love pe. I dont care if anyone builds out of the box its MY hobby and Im gonna do with it what ever I want.
and another thing that helper in the modelshop. well he tries to sell you something. so dont start ladying about that guy.
I work in a modelshop and I never bother my customers with all my elite skills (as far as I would have any) just if people want to do more then ootb I advice them after market kits.
and what that guy is trying to do is making sure you get the best results and come back, he knows you are not a beginner. ow well Im getting carried away.
but I LOVE MY AMS!!! I cant live without it at the moment Im building the italian rso with pak40 with all 3 aber sets friultracks and a jordi rubino barrel.
and IM LOVING every minute of it.
so I would say build whatever makes you float. and you are prob the fat guy from the simpsons! #:-)
and another thing that helper in the modelshop. well he tries to sell you something. so dont start ladying about that guy.
I work in a modelshop and I never bother my customers with all my elite skills (as far as I would have any) just if people want to do more then ootb I advice them after market kits.
and what that guy is trying to do is making sure you get the best results and come back, he knows you are not a beginner. ow well Im getting carried away.
but I LOVE MY AMS!!! I cant live without it at the moment Im building the italian rso with pak40 with all 3 aber sets friultracks and a jordi rubino barrel.
and IM LOVING every minute of it.
so I would say build whatever makes you float. and you are prob the fat guy from the simpsons! #:-)
PvtParts
Member Since: June 18, 2003
entire network: 1,876 Posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 01:02 AM UTC
First..build as it pleases you. Second, The store clerk is a salesman, its his job to sell more. You buy a car...look at air conditioning as AMS, same as power locks..Their job is to SELL! #:-)
trdnfigrhead
Member Since: November 11, 2003
entire network: 64 Posts
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 06:26 AM UTC
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Thank you for your replies. Truth is, I love PEM, Resin, metal tracks, turned Aluminum, etc. I think they are all great and they have their place on a model, (especially a dog). I just don't like the frustration that can arise from not doing something right that puts me off and keeps me away from the bench. I also obviously dislike the types of people who discourage fellow modellers from the hobby through incosiderate and snobbish behaviour. Super-detailed and OOTB kits both have there place and neither should be looked down upon IMHO.
In any case, I asked around to gauge other's opinions, and it turns out he's generally considered a nutcase anyways and most people either ignore him, or quietly humour him until he shuts up.
Thank you for your replies. Truth is, I love PEM, Resin, metal tracks, turned Aluminum, etc. I think they are all great and they have their place on a model, (especially a dog). I just don't like the frustration that can arise from not doing something right that puts me off and keeps me away from the bench. I also obviously dislike the types of people who discourage fellow modellers from the hobby through incosiderate and snobbish behaviour. Super-detailed and OOTB kits both have there place and neither should be looked down upon IMHO.
In any case, I asked around to gauge other's opinions, and it turns out he's generally considered a nutcase anyways and most people either ignore him, or quietly humour him until he shuts up.
MGard
Member Since: September 29, 2003
entire network: 60 Posts
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 06:49 AM UTC
In defense of the poor guy behind the counter. It seems to me that he was just trying to help. I know in my younger days I sought out knowledgable store clerks for their advise.
Mike
Mike
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
entire network: 8,074 Posts
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 07:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
First..build as it pleases you. Second, The store clerk is a salesman, its his job to sell more. You buy a car...look at air conditioning as AMS, same as power locks..Their job is to SELL! #:-)
If it's the clerk, he should be doing that. THat's his job, to make money for the store. He should never let you the customer not be aware there's a neat new aftermarket set for the model, that MM has just the right shade of OD for the variant on the boxtop, that they just got the Squadron In Action for that tank, etc. He should also know his csutomers and gauge their reactions. If you NEVER buy after market, he should know it'll annoy you to be reminded. But if you occasionally buy an Osprey book, he should gently ask if you've seen the latest one in.
capnjock
Member Since: May 19, 2003
entire network: 860 Posts
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:17 AM UTC
I sort of cross between the lines all the time. It depends on what I want to do with that specific model. Another reason for AM parts is to improve my skills in all types of media. I will also replace really bad parts with it (or scratchbuild). I am certainly not tied to AM parts. As has been said, BUILD FOR YOURSELF and enjoy your skills.
capnjock
capnjock
scoccia
Member Since: September 02, 2002
entire network: 2,606 Posts
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:16 PM UTC
trdnfigrhead I've got the same desease as yours but with a slight variation: I need to scartchbuild lots of details too!!! I've recently tried to do something OOB. I put the model together, I started painting it and suddenly I had to add tons of details because I didn't like it!!!
Ciao
Ciao
Neill
Member Since: May 26, 2003
entire network: 1,255 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 12:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
trdnfigrhead I've got the same desease as yours but with a slight variation: I need to scartchbuild lots of details too!!! I've recently tried to do something OOB. I put the model together, I started painting it and suddenly I had to add tons of details because I didn't like it!!!
Ciao
Another case of DFS... this is an epidemic....
John
www.johnneill.com
my earlier comment....
QUOTE
"Confession Time: Though I do not suffer from AMS ...
(I’m Scot by heritage, can't see putting good hard cash into all those extra goodies)
I do have “DFS” ...
Yes, the dreaded Detail Freak-idus Syndrome. Nothing you view on my webpage is an add-on. Simply the out of the box kit and my own sick, warped imagination. I know I should stop the madness, but I get a lot of my modeling pleasure from making all that stuff one can buy from ADD-ON kits from scratch.
UNQUOTE
Captain94
Member Since: October 06, 2002
entire network: 239 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 05:17 AM UTC
I can't agree more with the statement made about the kit being YOURS (and not some rotor-headed dork's hanging out at the hobby store.)
I build out of the box, to me making a well built, nice looking AFV is what makes our hobby fun.
Those that count rivets and moan over a few scale inches over/under the real deal's true dimensions are an odd bunch.......who cares? Wing edges to thick? So what! Just build the darn thing and get over yourself! Tracks don't sag right? BoooHooo. Geeze guys, get a life!
People like that are what is wrong with this hobby and scare off returning modelers and young kids.
As for me, I'll work harder at gaining skill as I bulid these bitsof plastic into something I'm proud to show off, not something I've come to view as work.
I build out of the box, to me making a well built, nice looking AFV is what makes our hobby fun.
Those that count rivets and moan over a few scale inches over/under the real deal's true dimensions are an odd bunch.......who cares? Wing edges to thick? So what! Just build the darn thing and get over yourself! Tracks don't sag right? BoooHooo. Geeze guys, get a life!
People like that are what is wrong with this hobby and scare off returning modelers and young kids.
As for me, I'll work harder at gaining skill as I bulid these bitsof plastic into something I'm proud to show off, not something I've come to view as work.
boatswain
Member Since: December 02, 2003
entire network: 53 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 04:24 AM UTC
I myself just started building models again after about a 20 year hiatus. Back then I don't remember there being PE parts, and when I wanted to add extra detail to the kit, I had to make it myself. It is the same approach I take now. I am attempting to build an old AMT T-74 tank model that was given to me. And yes, I could go out and buy a PE kit from Eduard for it, but isn't most of the fun of modelling from being able to find a way to make your vision come to life without feeling the need to purchase every after market kit out there?
I am not saying that it is bad to want to detail a kit or Dio, just that sometimes you will be amazed at what you can come up with on your own, and how good it looks when you are done.
It also gives you great satisfaction that you were able to what you wanted, and it also gives you new tips and ideas that you can share with other people.
I am not saying that it is bad to want to detail a kit or Dio, just that sometimes you will be amazed at what you can come up with on your own, and how good it looks when you are done.
It also gives you great satisfaction that you were able to what you wanted, and it also gives you new tips and ideas that you can share with other people.
flitzer
Member Since: November 13, 2003
entire network: 2,240 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 11:25 PM UTC
There are a lot of snobs out there or should it be the dislexic version....sobs...
The biggest most important point of all about modelling is that it is enjoyable and satisfying.
So as long as you enjoy what you do..stuff the critics.
Out of the box can be more satisfying with or without a bit of scratch here and there, than buying off the shelf parts.
I build kits with and without aftermarket bits depending on the model.
For instance, if the cockpit hole is tiny, (especially in 1/72nd) the kit wouldn't need much in the way of extras anyway.
Ignore them.
Or you could try a bit of retalitory "inverted snobbery". They usually give up pretty quickly.
Keep on doing it your way.
Cheers
Peter
The biggest most important point of all about modelling is that it is enjoyable and satisfying.
So as long as you enjoy what you do..stuff the critics.
Out of the box can be more satisfying with or without a bit of scratch here and there, than buying off the shelf parts.
I build kits with and without aftermarket bits depending on the model.
For instance, if the cockpit hole is tiny, (especially in 1/72nd) the kit wouldn't need much in the way of extras anyway.
Ignore them.
Or you could try a bit of retalitory "inverted snobbery". They usually give up pretty quickly.
Keep on doing it your way.
Cheers
Peter
Sealhead
Member Since: May 18, 2003
entire network: 427 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 01:58 AM UTC
You know, I keep coming back to your comments. It helped me. A smarter person than me, Stephen Covey, said, "Start with the end in mind."
If your end for modeling is therapeutic, like mine, do whatever you want. It's your world.
If it is too continually improve, or win trophies or be the next "gure", so be it.
But, whatever you do, if you can't enjoy the process, then the "end" you have in sight needs tweaking. Enjoy, enjoy.
What other hobby is there with so little to show for the hours? By that I mean our finished work just ends up in the basement or something anyway. Enjoy the process.
Sealhead
(Kansas Sunflower)
If your end for modeling is therapeutic, like mine, do whatever you want. It's your world.
If it is too continually improve, or win trophies or be the next "gure", so be it.
But, whatever you do, if you can't enjoy the process, then the "end" you have in sight needs tweaking. Enjoy, enjoy.
What other hobby is there with so little to show for the hours? By that I mean our finished work just ends up in the basement or something anyway. Enjoy the process.
Sealhead
(Kansas Sunflower)flitzer
Member Since: November 13, 2003
entire network: 2,240 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 02:35 AM UTC
Sealhead is absolutely right.
Besides the more you do, the more you're going to improve anyway.
Also fellow modellers tips are a boon for improving your skill.
Just enjoy what you do...nothing else matters.
Peter
Besides the more you do, the more you're going to improve anyway.
Also fellow modellers tips are a boon for improving your skill.
Just enjoy what you do...nothing else matters.
Peter
GSPatton
Member Since: September 04, 2002
entire network: 1,411 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:14 AM UTC
The one thing that bothers me about these people the how ultimately UNREALISTIC their work is.
NO tanker is going to leave live rounds sitting around outside the tank. No tanker is going to leave small arms in a location not readily available to him or the crew.
Yet I have seen "Gold" medal winners with tanks in combat with live ammo on the decks, live grenades on the decks and small arms here and there. Crazy
I like to build OOB and occasionally scratch bulid a part or two. Replace plastic grab handles with wire, things like that.
NO tanker is going to leave live rounds sitting around outside the tank. No tanker is going to leave small arms in a location not readily available to him or the crew.
Yet I have seen "Gold" medal winners with tanks in combat with live ammo on the decks, live grenades on the decks and small arms here and there. Crazy
I like to build OOB and occasionally scratch bulid a part or two. Replace plastic grab handles with wire, things like that.
GunTruck
Member Since: December 01, 2001
entire network: 5,885 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The one thing that bothers me about these people the how ultimately UNREALISTIC their work is.
NO tanker is going to leave live rounds sitting around outside the tank. No tanker is going to leave small arms in a location not readily available to him or the crew.
Yet I have seen "Gold" medal winners with tanks in combat with live ammo on the decks, live grenades on the decks and small arms here and there. Crazy
I wasn't going to comment here in this thread - but - GSP really captured something that bears repeating...
Gunnie
mikeli125
Member Since: December 24, 2002
entire network: 2,595 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:33 AM UTC
I agree your weapon should never be more than arms reach away unless streach armstrong happens to be crewing that particular tank
Plasticbattle
#003
Member Since: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 11:17 AM UTC
It doesnt bother me what one modeller feels should be, or how it is done .... it is the end result that counts. Over the last few years I have seen some amazing work with after market products (Lee Lloyds tiger for just one example) and I have been really impressed. So from this point of view I cant knock AM products.
I have also seen the perfectly built panther with a couple of sets of pe, barrel, tracks, resin stowage, exhaust, correct cuppola, interior, engine, lenses, etc, etc with no glue marks, perfect camo, perfect build, etc. and it does absolutely nothing for me.
I saw graywolfs Italeri schwimmwagen lastnight on here ....... and was stunned! This to me is where I want my modelling to be .......
Character! All the aftermarket in the world cant give this. I guess this pretty much sums up my opinions on this subject!
I have also seen the perfectly built panther with a couple of sets of pe, barrel, tracks, resin stowage, exhaust, correct cuppola, interior, engine, lenses, etc, etc with no glue marks, perfect camo, perfect build, etc. and it does absolutely nothing for me.
I saw graywolfs Italeri schwimmwagen lastnight on here ....... and was stunned! This to me is where I want my modelling to be .......
Character! All the aftermarket in the world cant give this. I guess this pretty much sums up my opinions on this subject!
GunTruck
Member Since: December 01, 2001
entire network: 5,885 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,405 Posts
Posted: Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:04 AM UTC
Lee - I was reading the thread too and scratching my head trying to figure what it meant.
I think the original poster was feeling a bit down because he felt the way to gaining acceptance from his modeling peers (contest or otherwise) was found through the AMS-route. He felt that unfair.
I thought about this thread and another where one our our newer members felt he'd never acheive the "level" of some work he saw displayed here on Site. It bothered me because they're honest feelings and thoughts about the hobby in general.
I think the summation is that all of us take an aspect of the hobby and should be comfortable in striving to acheive whatever goal we set out for it. We all say we should and only model for ourselves - but if that were true - there'd be little impetus for a Site like this. We all like to share and have fun in looking at other models - and want our efforts to be appreciated for what they are. It doesn't matter if a modeler just wants to build something over the weekend and another wants to build one over a year's period of time. Aftermarket, or nothing at all, weathered, or pristine - all are welcomed and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think if everyone is respected for what they attempt to do - then everyone is a winner.
I hope the original poster feels better about that...
Gunnie
I think the original poster was feeling a bit down because he felt the way to gaining acceptance from his modeling peers (contest or otherwise) was found through the AMS-route. He felt that unfair.
I thought about this thread and another where one our our newer members felt he'd never acheive the "level" of some work he saw displayed here on Site. It bothered me because they're honest feelings and thoughts about the hobby in general.
I think the summation is that all of us take an aspect of the hobby and should be comfortable in striving to acheive whatever goal we set out for it. We all say we should and only model for ourselves - but if that were true - there'd be little impetus for a Site like this. We all like to share and have fun in looking at other models - and want our efforts to be appreciated for what they are. It doesn't matter if a modeler just wants to build something over the weekend and another wants to build one over a year's period of time. Aftermarket, or nothing at all, weathered, or pristine - all are welcomed and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think if everyone is respected for what they attempt to do - then everyone is a winner.
I hope the original poster feels better about that...
Gunnie
keenan
Member Since: October 16, 2002
entire network: 5,272 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:07 AM UTC
A tad 
My brother drove an M60A3 in the 3/2nd ACR. He came home once and saw a Panther model I built with ammo laying on the back deck and he actually slapped me... Never did it again...
Shaun
My brother drove an M60A3 in the 3/2nd ACR. He came home once and saw a Panther model I built with ammo laying on the back deck and he actually slapped me... Never did it again...
Shaun
Twig
Member Since: March 24, 2003
entire network: 167 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:17 AM UTC
Gunnie,
I totally agree with what you have said here. You have summed up much more eloquently what I was trying to say!
One thing which I did not say in my previous post relates specificaly to what you said and why I visit Armorama. It is the spirit of friendship that exists here amongst a set of modellers with a wide range of abilities and tastes that does not exist on any other modelling site on the net. This drags me back here time and again and long may it do so.
Lee
I totally agree with what you have said here. You have summed up much more eloquently what I was trying to say!
One thing which I did not say in my previous post relates specificaly to what you said and why I visit Armorama. It is the spirit of friendship that exists here amongst a set of modellers with a wide range of abilities and tastes that does not exist on any other modelling site on the net. This drags me back here time and again and long may it do so.
Lee
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