A article on CNN's site about banning the swastika across the EU has Hindu's calling for it not to be banned, because it is a symbol of peace, and not hate.

Here's the article.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/hindu.swastika.reut/index.html

I was just wondering how this (if it ever went into effect) would affect the modelling world over there. I know that it's banned in Germany, and all of the kit makers don't include them in decal sheets, or maybe parts of it, etc. But if it was banned and made illeagal to display it in any form, what would that mean? Would modellers not be allowed to bring aircraft models to shows/competitions? Would they be arrested or fined for displaying a replica of a piece of history that has the swastika on it? Would aftermarket companies also get fined or perhaps shut down if they produce AM decal sheets that have the symbol on it? What about Reinactor societies and documentary makers? Would all this come to an end? I'm probably looking at the most extreme end of things, and nothing may happen at all, but it is definately interesting to see how it turns out.

This is ridiculous. Not only is it a Hindu sybol, but also a NAtive American symbol as well. On top of that, it also seems to me that they are opting for the "Let's forget that ever happened" approach. The route they are going, it seems they are almost begging for a WWIII.


Slightly cliche, but still true,

"Those who choose to not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Whatever the arguments are (pro or anti), this looks like one of these threads which could easily become heated. Perhaps this simply isn't the site for it?

Since the potential impact on modelling is enormous, this site is exactly where it should be discussed.

Vinnie

If anything this should be in the Junk Drawer. Although I agree with Jim, this has been beaten to death before, and usually ends in a mess.

I fully agree!




" and those who do not learn the right things are just doomed"

(from one of the opening sequences of the TV show Andromeda)

best regards

Steffen

Disscusing this subject needs knowledge, insight and restraint. Not something that some people seem to posses in large enough quantities to keep things civil.
The German obsession with the banning of all things Nazi has not worked in the past, and won't work in the future. Neo-nazies are prolific in Germany, as well in various other countries. Baning a symbol will not stop them, if nothing else it will encourage them.
I would not be surprised if Germany manages to rail road this through, but I would not expect the rest of Europe to take much otice. After all, the Germans may push it through as a law, but they can't come to your county to enforce it.

Henk

I fully expect it get heated too. However, then it's time to moderate it.

Vinnie

My apologies everyone if I end up starting something that could turn into a big mess...I didn't know exactly where I should have posted this, and I'm sure it's been discussed to death in the past, just when reading the article it seemed like it could be a Europe wide ban and what it would mean for the modelling community as a whole across the pond.

Jim/Vinnie, if you feel that this could get way out of hand pls toss the thread.

I know at least France has banned the symbol since as long as I can remember. That is why on many of the box covers the swastika (as well as SS symbols IIRC) are not present. There was a big deal about kits being sold on eBay from other countries but viewable in France, violating French law. Don't know how that one was resolved if at all.

I'm not sure this is all that new a story except perhaps the EU is considering it rather than just individual countries.

Hehe, there`s an anegdote for you- i`m from Croatia(look it up if you dont know where it is...) and a couple of friends and myself went to Hungary on a big modelling show in Mosonmagyarovar.To get there,we were supposed to go throu Slovenia(same advice,look it up-even smaller ) which is in EU.So,we were driving to the border and the back of the car is filled with german prop planes, swastikas all-over the place,tanks and all... And then it hit us-the Bann.We could only pray that the let us pass.On the border, the customs guy asks us if we have anythin to declare,and we say no.And he says-open the trunk.So we do.The guys eyes nearly poped out!We had some long explaining to do, but he released us with a question mark written on his face...

my combat boots often connect with neo nazis bums and faces. AND I KICK VERY HARD. hehe

?

I'd have been much more interested and impressed had you worn your "Combat Boots" in combat.

As if someone who would bring his model to a modelshow would want to say anything other then "look at how I made my model"
So strange how a symbol (and that means whatever symbol) miss-used by anyone, would suddenly represent ONLY those who miss-used it...

It's a part of european history, why bann it, would it solve anything or prevent anything?

If someone wrote it on a wall near a school, I would not like it, but when displayed on a modelplane? come on....

Think about it though. If you are having a wonderful day, great luck, then all of a sudden get in a car crash, which part of the day will be your most vivid memory. Its sad that we remember the bad much more than the good, and that a symbol of peace can be corrupted by one incident of bad usage.

I don't think the symbol should be banned, and I don't think it will be. At least not staright out. It is a Hindu symbol, so banning it outright infringes on their religious right. I also think that most EU countries will refuse to ban, as a lot of historical programing would have to be edited or banned, books, movies, shows, models.....and I don't think the people of most EU countries would stand for it.

I am enjoying the irony of the discussion to "moderate" a topic about "moderation", or possibly more appopriately censorship. Jim, its your site and I am a guest here. I respect the work of the staff and the need to keep it friendly but my experience with most of the other members is that they are intelligent enough to hold a debate. Why do we as a civilisation constantly cater for the lowest common demonator in this respect? IMHO, this only causes a downward spiral; ever noticed how your golf game or modelling skills get better when you play or model with people who's skills are way beyond your own? Perhaps those that can't have a debate without getting heated could learn by watching those who can?

Personally, I don't think you should censor most things, and I say "most" because I am not intelligent enough to know everything. By attempting to ban a symbol you give more power to it. Also you can create interest where there wasn't any previously. Don't know if many of you remember a movie called "The Last Temptation of Christ", never saw it personally but I understand it did ok at the box office. Now the reports I heard of it was it was a good idea and an ok movie but how many non-christian's do you think would have spent an evening watching a movie about a god/man they didn't believe in if it hadn't been blackbanned by the church???

The right-wing groups that want to ban the swastika would do better by letting it die its own death, rather than martyring it.

That's my whole roll of 2c pieces.

Cheers
Wiz

PS: kicking neo-nazis for their ideologies alone is a fascist act too...

Hey guys,
It's a touchy subject all around but I think the main problem for the Hindu faith is that the EU plan is to ban all swastikas.
If I'm not mistaken, the Hindu swastika symbol is in the reverse position to the Nazi version.
eg; the "toe" of the cross points right on the Nazi version while the Hindi version the "toe" points left.
I was told this by a friend of mine from New Dehli.
Just an FYI.

jjumbo

update: I just checked Wikipedia, the Hindu syymbol can be displayed both ways with some addition markings.
It's going to be tough to ban every version of the symbol.
BTW, has Germany banned all the Rune style markings used by the Nazis?

Hmm....topic of the week? Just kidding!
I agree that it's history, it happened, and the symbol was used in a way that unfortuneately most people will associate Nazis with the Swastika. There's so much history to the symbol before Hitler took it as his own, it's sad to see it all overshadowed. Hopefully some reasonable solution can be worked out that will satisfy all parties.

An outright ban, could not be possible.
I could see it being enforced in public displays/gatherings, but what about history books, discovery/history channel, libraries, etc?
Is it possible to censor history?
Hopefully common sense prevails!

Common sense prevailing? These are politicians who are trying to get elected! :-)

On a more serious note to this. I have no objection to the symbol being used as it has in the past for religious reasons. Nor do I have any objection to it being used as a historically accurate symbol to show what something that has existed in the past.

I DO object to it being used as a calling card to every idiot and microcephalic maladroit who wants to carry on the work of one Adolf Hitler and his minions.

The work of the Nazi's was deplorable and THAT is what most of us do associate it with, unfortunately, not the peacefulness of the hindu religion. It saddens me................

It's an interesting topic and one that could have great impact on modeling in the EU. I know E-Bay will block the sale of Nazi items bearing the swastika, even if it's blocked out of the image and they catch the postnig. This has happened to me as my wife and I started dealing in WWII militaria, predominantly German items. We posted a HJ badge online and it was closed down, they said it fell under the hateful and disciminatory use policy they have. I questioned why Reichsmarks and Hitler stamps are allowed and they said they are an exception, although I've seen SS items for sale there too so they don't block everything. Also asked if they would block several other items I found doing a 5 minute search such as an Osama Bin Laden doll, a "Kill Bush" button etc. Asked them if they fell under the same hate and discrimination policy but of course they didn't and were allowed to continue on to their end.

If groups and companies continue to insist on blocking this symbol, it starts the run down a slippery slope as I'm sure everyone could find something somewhere that falls into this category. I DO NOT support the Nazi party, don't idolize Hitler etc. I enjoy learning and understanding the history of WWII and this symbol represented a major part of the conflict. Ignoring it so it will simply go away will not make it go away, banning it will only make it difficult for modeler's in the EU and maybe elsewhere if other countries followed suit.

As I always say to anyone who asks why we sell or have Nazi items, we're selling the history, not the ideology. Same goes for modeler's, we're depicting history, not the ideology.

Maybe a definitive history on the use of the swastika throughout time would be helpful.T.V. documentary for instance.I know as a modeller and through reading, that the swastika was the national symbol for various countries before WW2.Also I have seen it on aircraft of the R.A.F. and other non Nazi aircraft. The EADS aircraft company own and fly three WW2 aircraft Fw190,Me262 and Me109 each has on it`s tail the modern German flag.Aircraft in German museums also display this flag,historical accuracy goes out the window,to political correctness.To ban the swastika is to deny it`s exsistance.It became evil by association with the Nazi Party and it`s regime.It existed and still exists as a sign of peace.You shoudn`t ban something just because one person/organisation misused it.
That is the the thin end of the wedge that leads to dictatorship.

That`s my two pennorth.

Den

Frankly, I consider some of the comments made to be verging on the alarmist. Many of the assumptions made are along the lines that this is some kind of German conspiracy to deny their past. Nothing in fact, could be further from the truth...

For a good number of years (for example) it has been a criminal offence in Germany to DENY the existence of the Holocaust. It has also been a criminal offence to publicly display ANY symbol of the Third Reich. These have been very vigorously prosecuted through the courts. We are talking about Neo-Nazi groups (and so-called 'Historians') who have been prosecuted, not those who build Heinkel 111s...

On the other side of the coin, it would be difficult to find any country in the world whose educational system confronts their past with quite as much 'vigor' as Germany. Would a country which is denying its past have such memorials as the Holocaust Museum or the ruins of the Gestapo HQ in Berlin (amongst MANY others)?

So, before the hysteria reaches fever-pitch, remember that the target of any legislation is NOT those who model vehicles and aircraft of the 3rd Reich but rather the shaved-head morons who defend it...

Edit: If people could also remember while writing a response (in the interests of fairness), that the Kitmaker Network has, no less than 549 Registered Users who are connected from Germany...

???? I thought the opinions expressed so far, were quite sedated!

Just had a thought -

I assume the ban would apply to Allied planes with swastikas as kill markings, as well...

That wipes out quite a chunk of modelling!!!