I'm starting this topic on behalf of Savage...

So Eric... over to you boet

Thanks Rudi!

Hi Guys, being an SA expat, I thought it best start this here.

EDIT: Rule Number 1- I'm no expert on the Olifant!

So you want to build an Olifant in 1/35 scale?

Which one; Mk1, Mk1a or Mk1b? (I know zilch about the Mk2)

Even with this established, which Mk1, Mk1a or Mk1b?

I worked on the Olifant for a little bit, read many books on the Olifant series as well as many articles (almost all of them with mistakes in them). The most basic mistake is identifying the vehicle.

Right, before I continue to bore you all to tears; who is actually interested in building a 1/35 scale Olifant?

Edit: Also did you know that there has been a conversion for the Centurion, by a mainstream resin producer, that (except for the lights and a few other minor details) builds into an 'initial' Olifant Mk1?

I first got interested in this ‘project’ when I found out from ‘Red Carpet’ that a 1/35 Mk1a would cost me R1000-00, my first thoughts can’t be put into print.

After searching for the every elusive Tamiya Centurion and not having Barv’s scratch building talent, I found that I was little closer to a 1/35 Olifant.

Doing research on this creature was virtually impossible as photos and printed material were very scarce. Add to this that the different marks were constantly misidentified by almost everyone.

From Photos and such I’ve identified at least three changes in the Mk1, going from prototype/initial to the ones used in Angola. The Mk1a has at least two changes.

So where do you start? I started with what makes the Olifant unique?

The single most unique item on the Olifant (to me) was the engine deck! Photos from IPMSSA and Sentinel Projects (SADFbook) and a few from a friend led me to a strange conclusion.

The SADF Olifant Mk1 & Mk1a is (except for a few minor climactic changes) the IDF Sho’t!

Almost forgot the photos. The two engine decks:

Olifant


Sho’t Kal


Legend production’s IDF Centurion 1973, also as seen on PMMS builds (with a few additions and modifications) into an ‘initial’ Olifant Mk1!

For all the sceptics out there.

The M60A1 has a Continental AVDS-1790-2C(?) diesel engine (750bhp) and the Israeli’s fitted the L7 105mm to their Patton’s. Why they changed from the M68 105mm, which is a licence built copy (eccentric versus concentric bore evacuator), I have no idea.

Why is this important?
The Sho’t was upgraded using the AVDS-1790-2C(?) engine, L7 105mm gun and the engine deck was altered using the M60’s deck as a template. The air filter box is a modified variant of the one used on the M60A1. As the good old RSA was under arms embargo they had no direct access to these items!

Now, the Olifant Mk1 & Mk1a has a Continental 750bhp diesel engine, L7 105mm gun and except for the grills, the same engine deck and air filter assembly as the Sho’t. By the way, the Americans helped break their own arms embargo by inadvertently supplying the Continental engines and spare parts for the Olifants to South Africa. Thanks Guys!

Now, whether the IDF helped with the Olifant’s ‘birth’ directly, or the Centurions that were bought from Jordan were already upgraded to the Sho’t specifications and copied is for someone else to answer!

EDIT: SA also bought a number of Centurions from Israel, not sure of the date and whether this influences matters or not.

Almost forgot.
If you want to build a model of the Olifant Mk1a with the engine removed and showing off the inside of the engine bay, then Legend productions LF1032 is pretty close (without exact photos etc...)!

From Legend Productions:

Excellent thread, Eric. So this is the secret you were keeping from me? :-) :-) :-)

You really should consider putting all of this into a full feature for AA!

Yeah, sorry Rudi!

It wasn’t until VEG’s articles that I could put the final bit together. VEG too has unfortunately gotten the identification of the Mk1 & Mk1a on some photos and colour palettes mixed up.

As stated in VEG the Olifant has the Continental AVDS-1790-2D 750 hp V-12 engine with an Allison CD-850-6D powershift crossdrive transmission. Now this engine and Gearbox combination is installed in M60s.

Why the Continental AVDS-1790-2D & Allison CD-850-6D transmissions were fitted instead of the Continental AVDS-1790-2A & Allison CD-850-6/6A transmissions is probably because of something like this:

Armscor buyer (or affiliate) goes to supplier of Heavy Equipment (earthmovers etc..) engines in RSA and asks for a quantity of engines giving a spec (probably 2A). Supplier phones up the USA (Continental supplier) and orders engine & gearbox combo. As the 2D engines & 6D transmissions have superseded the 2A engines & 6/6A transmissions, the US supplier will supply the newer engine & transmissions. Armscor installs the engine & transmission combos.

AA?

Rudi, I was thinking of doing an article for Armorama, but unfortunately this is all based on bits and pieces of info, hearsay and speculation without solid proof there is no use!

It’s helpful to the guys who want to build SADF models, but further than that it’s not much good.

For example during Operations Modular & Hooper both 4SAI and 61 Mech deployed tanks. These tanks were maintained by OFS Command Signallers, TSC staff from School of Armour, Apprentices & NSM from Pretoria and I suspect even staff from 4VRP. They were manned by crews from School of Armour and some Citizen Force crews (not found much info on crews).

When speaking to a group of these guys who crewed and serviced these vehicles you would think that the conversation is fluid, but you’re actually talking to two different sets of people (one from 4SAI and the others from 61 Mech).
Now this doesn’t sound like anything, but 4SAI used Mk1a Olifants and 61 Mech had Mk1 (not Mk1a) Olifants. 61 Mech was only refitted with Mk1a Olifants after returning from Ogongo to Omatiya.

Later when 8SAI’s fighting wing (Veg Vluel) joined 61 Mech Bn Grp to form 62 Mech Brigade (plus a few other units I can't remember), they brought more tanks. These tanks were mainly Mk1a Olifants, but IIRC there were two or three Mk1s as well, crewed and serviced by Citizen Force members. They didn’t have an ARV, but had a 8X8 MAN instead. Oddly 61 Mech had two ARVs 58C (Charlie) and 58D (Delta).
Delta was used even though it had a tendency to overheat it’s gearbox.

ArmoramA

If I were you I'd definitely discuss it with Vinnie. Hearsay or no.

Thanks Rudi, let's see if anyone's actually interested first.

Ok Eric well done so far on most points.

Veg is done by a good budy of mine Pierre Victor who was involved with the project at OMC. The guys is one of the most knowledgeable in the field but he does sometimes make mistakes. To mistake a Mk1 and a Mk1a is very easy. I've got some training video footage at home and I was under the mistaken impression that the vehicles where Mk1as until Pierre pointed out that they are Mk1s and that it is some of the last remaining footage of the Mk1.

Ok I spoke to old Pierre on monday and he told me that he is working up a comprehensive book on the Olifant in all it's varaints. (he is just waiting for me to capture a video on the ARV which wants to use as a base to illustrate the workings of the ARV) Now the book will contain alot more info on Olifant than the articles.

Now to some hints and tips. Yes the Olifant uses a continental as with the shot although not the same one. The engine deck does differ as does the real plate. All major boxes and stowage as well as the hull side boxes differ. Below you will find some photos I took at the armor school during nationals.











Now I have composed a DVD with the photos on which I will pass on to those who want it. No interior shots I am afraid those I keep for myself and Pierre's book.

On the units deployed in Modular/Hooper/Packer. The first unit deployed was E sqaudron school of armor under the then Maj. Andre Retief. They were replaced by F sqaudron school of armor under Maj.
Tim Rudman and a sqaudron from the Regt. Pretoria under Maj. Vim Grobler. These tank units were not organic to either 61 Mech or 4 SAI being attached to the units as needed for specific battles.

Regt Pretoria was replaced on the 17th of January by Regt Molopo. At the start of Operation Packer both F sqaudron and Regt Molopo was replaced by 2 sqaudrons from Regt. President Steyn under the command of Cmdt. Gerrit Louw. This was the Regt which left the 3 tanks behind in the minefield during the third attack against the Tumpo triangle. (two of them are still there and I want to do a trip up to Cuito this year to go have a look at them.)

I don't know If I have mentioned it before but Graugrun and I are working up a pictoral history of Operations Modular/Hooper/Packer which will focus on the armor battles specifically during these ops. We hope to have it ready for the 20th aniversary next year. I am also doing research for a more in depth book on the operations.

On the compositiion of the units. Well a sqaudron is composed of 13 tanks plus an ARV. It has 3 troops with 3 tanks each. One tank each for the OC, 2IC and the sqaudron sargeant. The 13th tank is the spare tank. According to some of my sources most of the units did not take the spare along.

One thing I do differ with Eric though is that all vehicles deployed were Mk1a. There were not many Mk1s left by that stage most having being converted to Mk1a by OMC. I will check if E sqaudron was the organic unit attached to 61 Mech as it was the only unit in the SADF to have an organic tank sqaudron.

On the numbering of the tanks that is for another post.

Hi Theunis, as to 61 Mech – IIRC the only indigenous members were:
HQ Company
Alpha Company – Mech Inf
Bravo Company – Mech Inf


The rest of the Battalion was:

Charlie Squadron – Anti-tank Squadron (SSB)
Delta Battery – Artillery
Echo Squadron – Tank Squadron
Froxtrot Battery – Anti-Aircraft





Agreed and I did mention this.





Yes they do differ, but by how much? Except for the ‘Rubbers’ and grills, they are beyond similar. The rear louvers are the same right down to their method of locking and they even have the same amount of slats as the Sho’t Kal.
The side grills/vent have grills covering them, but underneath (as seen in your photo) there are louvers / slats and I’ll put money down the have the same amount of slats as the Sho’t Kal.

As to the stowage boxes, they might differs on the Mk1a, but the photos I’ve seen of the Kal and the Mk1, there is virtually no difference.

The Olifant Mk1 ‘Initial’ on the outside differs by only a few things (rubbers & grills on the engine deck, smoke lauchers etc…). Using Legend’s LF1061 Conversion set and a few scratch built items you can produce a pretty accurate 1/35 scale Olifant Mk1.

Remember Theunis, firstly I’m NO expert, secondly I have NO facts. All above that I wrote is hearsay, snippets of info and join the dots, and still I don’t hear anyone deny that the Olifant’s origins lay in the Sho’t.

PS: What was unique of 51A as assigned to 61 Mech (period mid 1988 till it was replaced)?

The Mk1 and Sho't are very similiar except that on the Sho't the exhausts have been lengthend above the deck and given those domed covers. The rubber pads which prevets the barrel from depressing to far are also missing.

How much they differ I'll be able to tell once I've studied the photos I have of Sho't and the footage of Mk1. As there are no examples of Mk1 in existance any more the footage will tell me more.

I do not for one moment doubt that we and the Isrealis have worked together on the Olifant. They after all helped with the night vision equipment and there is a plaque presented by Genl. Yitzak Rabin dated as 1982 in the officers mess at the School of Armor. (you are free to draw your own conclusions from this). Further more the resemblance of the olifant engine deck to that of the M48/60 is very remarkable.




I believe that this is were the differences lay. Both in Mk1 and Mk1a to Sho't. The Mk1 misses the bussle rack found on the Sho't (minor) appart from that I don't see any major difference apart from a few small boxes here and there as well as differnces in minor fittings on the rear plate and the rest of the tank. A big difference is the type of towing hook afixed to the tank.

Mk1a and Mk1 differ in that Mk1 has had the air filters relocated to two set of boxes on the rear of the hull as well as minor changes to the turret and hull. No slip coating and brush gaurds were recently added to all Mk1a around the lights and smoke grenade launchers.

On 51A. No idea will have to phone up my sources. The fact that sqaudron attached to 61 Mech gives rise to my believe that E sqaudron and Echo are one in the same something over which I have been wondering for a while. The sqaudron attached to 61 Mech was also drawn from the school of armor but all the sources I have (bridgeland and heitman) says that they were deployed from Bloem and not Omitiya in SWA. The fact that it was Echo sqaudron of 61 Mech would also explain the 5 series numbering. As they were the 5 th company/sqaudron in 61 Mech all external numbers will start with 5. 51A will thus be the vehicle of the troop commander of troop 1. The rest of the vehicles being numbered 51B and 51C. OC's vehicle would be 50A and so on.

Sorry if I implied you are an expert. Just tried to give the correct facts. I looked at the photos in VEG last night. Pierre did miss ID the Mk1a in the water trough as a Mk1. Whould also have if I did not see the bussle box. But damn it is hidden behind the rest of the external storage on the turret so an easy mistake.

Theunis my apologies, I should have made it more clear - this thread is about building the Olifant in 1/35 scale and NOT having to pay R1000-00 plus for the privilege!

My comment “firstly I’m NO expert, secondly I have NO facts” is just to reiterate that many of my ‘conclusions’ are actually just theories and if you have facts to the contrary so much better, as it corrects my thinking and provides facts! Place in question would be the deployment of the Mk1 versus the Mk1a.

By “night vision equipment” you are referring to the ‘Nag Elemboog’ on the Olifant and not night vision equipment in general?

E and Echo Squadron are one in the same thing. It’s just the phonetically alphabet E = Echo.

How I remember the School of Armour-Tank Squadrons being ‘attached’/ deployed was that the entire School of Armour Squadron (Whichever one) arrived from Bloem with most of its hierarchy intact. So as the squadron had trained, so they were deployed in 61 Mech, with a minimum of changes. First stop was actually Tsumeb where 61 Mech’s HQ was.

Yes, the 5 numbering system is for the E (fifth company/squadron/battery).
The Tank numbering (callsigns were)

50 -Bev (Bev had an NCO as a gunner) (Bev also had a Ratel 20, SSM deployed with the echelon in a Ratel 60)
50A -2IC
There was no Squadron Sergeant, a Cpl carried out his duties. The Squadron Sergeant’s car became a spare, but initially was 50B.

51 –Troop Bev Lt/2Lt
51A –Troop NCO Cpl
51B –Troop Car L/Cpl

52 & 53 as above

S1 –First Spare
S2 –Second Spare

58C –ARV (8 designates it a TSC car) (C is used as no other Tank has the C callsign)
58D –Second ARV
I don’t remember the Doctor & Medic’s call sign, but it was initially a Casspir Ambulance.

50A, S1, S2, ARV & Ambulance all formed part of the 2IB pakkie! 50A, S1, S2 formed the ‘Spare parts’ and also protected the ARV & Ambulance.


Yes, these were just referred to by repair crews as ‘Rubbers’. They are more for use with the Gun Control system, but that is not important




Got any photos? PLEASE





Not really, the spare tracks are on the fenders, so it’s a MK1a, secondly there are no ‘tool racks’ on the front glacis plate. All Mk1 and some Mk1a had their spare tracks and ‘tool racks’ on the front glacis plate in front of the driver. No Mk1 had spare tracks on the fenders, only Mk1a had them there.

Thirdly wrong air cleaner boxes and fourthly there are LARGE bins behind the air cleaner boxes -only Mk1a had this. The Mk1 had a small bin on the right side only (The top view on pg 18 is missing this bin).

Also in VEG 05, on pg 16 it’s a Mk1, not a Mk1a - wrong air cleaner boxes and no bins behind the air cleaner boxes (left side) all Mk1a have these bins.

The drawing on page 17 shows a Mk1a (well almost) air cleaner box –pg16 has the correct one.

Sorry, just an obsevation!

The first of my theories is on identifying the various Olifant Mk1 & Mk1a variants (The Mk1b & Mk2 are easily spotted). I identify these variants based on four main items, plus a few other oddities. Here let me stipulate that nowhere have I ever seen documentation referring to these variants. As far as I’ve seen the Olifant was officially referred to as either Mk1 or Mk1a. The only time I have every heard early & late references were between the ‘Tiffies’ i.e. TSC members.

Mk1 ‘Initial / Early’
Air Filter boxes & right side rear bin are the same as the Sho’t Kals
No Bustle rack
6X Smoke launchers
The Tracks and ‘tool racks’ are placed on the front glacis plate

Mk1 ‘Mid’
Air Filter boxes & right side rear bin are the same as the Sho’t Kals
No Bustle rack
8X Smoke launchers
The Tracks and ‘tool racks’ are placed on the front glacis plate

Mk1 ‘Late’
Air Filter boxes & right side rear bin are the same as the Sho’t Kals
A Bustle rack with expanded metal (Grill) bins on both sides is present
8X Smoke launchers
The Tracks and ‘tool racks’ are placed on the front glacis plate


Mk1a ‘Initial’
Air Filter boxes have changed and are- slightly larger, hinged with a single handle plus there are a set of large bins behind the air cleaner boxes
Mk1a Bustle rack
8X Smoke launchers
The Tracks and ‘tool racks’ are placed on the front glacis plate (on some the ‘tool rack’ has gone)

Mk1a ‘Early’
Air Filter boxes as above in 'Initial'
Mk1a Bustle rack
8X Smoke launchers (Some have bush bars/protectors)
The Tracks are placed on the fenders in front of the bins and NO ‘tool racks’ on front glacis plate.

Mk1a ‘Mid’
Air Filter boxes have changed again, no hinge, but has two handles set of large bins behind the air cleaner boxes still the same
Mk1a Bustle rack
8X Smoke launchers (Some have bush bars/protectors)
The Tracks are placed on the fenders in front of the bins and NO ‘tool racks’ on front glacis plate.
Some vehicles have extensive anti-slip coating applied

Mk1a ‘Late’
All items the same as ‘Mid’, except
8X Smoke launchers this time with bush bars/protectors
The rear fenders are now straight and there is a second fender braces present on the straightened piece. The rear brace has been moved backwards on the fender and a larger brace has been added to the rear of the last bin.
Extensive anti-slip coating has been applied to all vehicles
This item (no sure what it’s for) has been removed from the gun shield / trunnion.



Mk1a ‘Initial’ & ‘Early’ Air Filter box



Mk1a ‘Mid’ & ‘Late’ Air Filter box


PS: I downloaded these photos quite a bit back, so if the owner will kindly contact me I'll be pleased to credit their work to them.

OK my bad on the numbering. My info is based on opservations I made in the tank park at bloem. But I will gladly revise my notes to such an extend.

On the thing Pierre mis ID'd well once again I should be more opservant.

Anyways I would also like to use this thread to give somer general opservations on the Olifant based on my research and references. All the photos I have posted so far are from ones I took at the school of armor during nationals. Most of the vehicles there are newer generation 1as al though there is a mid production 1a at the museum it self with a set of minerollers attached, and what I believe to be a early Mk1a at the gate.

I will start going through my reference tonight to see what I can dig up to verify your theory. In all probability you are bang on. But lets take it from theory to reality. I will take some screen captures of the footage I have. One thing I am wondering though is the late Mk1. As I understand it the Mk was introduced and the production run was stopped 18 short of full production after the army realised the design was no good against a T55.

What I also would like to propose we do is to put this all together as there is alot of blokes in the rest of the world who would like to have this gen.

By the way Eric PM me your postal adress and I will mail you a dvd with the photos.

Theunis, PM sent. The numbering took me more than a bit to click on to.




That’s exactly what I was hoping would happen.

I believe that the last 18 Mk1 not built were the first Mk1a built, as externally the only differences were; Air Filter boxes & large bins behind the air cleaner boxes and New Bustle rack.




Sounds good to me, I did PM you my email address.

EDIT: Excuse my manners! Thank You for the offer of the CD, as I have only a few photos anymore will be very handy.

Theunis
Three pages for you to look at-----



If they are of any good ......please use as you see fit --Pierre??

These pics--MBT---- were sent to me ..........can put up on screen if needed
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f329/BARV/Olifant%201A%20ARV--Build/MBT%20Olifant%201-1A/
Have been informed these pics are by ......Chris Loser ---thanks to him
aye
Steve C

Thanks for the info Steve, the history of the Olifant ARV is coming together. Any chance you can get the Callsigns of the ARVs in the piece. Cause if they're from 61 Mech, then they were either 58C or 58D. With these callsigns we could further research these vehicles.

For example IIRC 58D was involved at Calueque.

Steve, Craig Löser owns the rights to most of those photos. I've not been able to get hold of him, but as long as you credit him I don't believe he'll have a problem with them being used.

Ok some more gen on the MK1. Yes some were indeed fitted with bussle racks. I believe these to be mods made by the army and not OMC as not all of the tanks in the footage I have has the racks fitted. The racks are similiar to the ones on the Mk1a. I will post screenshots as soon as I surface from my visit to gold mines in welkom.

I also spoke to Pierre. He explained the 4 variants so:

Initilal - small number of prototypes
early - small number of pre-production versions.
mid - production vehicles
late - in service and phasing out of type usealy has had convetions done on them by the army. (For example the Mk1a late was given anti slip and brush guards by the army.)

Now I guess the easiest way to spot a Mk1 from a Mk1a is the lack of tools on the glassis and the extra filter box on the rear fenders.

Now for 1b. It came in two versions Mk1b and Mk1b optimal. Optimal had only one vehicles build. This is the wedge nosed turret. Mk1b was the slab sided one.

I have always wanted to build one of these Olifant tanks. With all the info here I guess I will never get to start as it is confusing the hell out of me and somewhere along the line someone will tell me I have it wrong. Well there goes another idea out teh window.

As far as I could gather the Olifant Mk 1 was first designated in this fashion in 1981. What was the difference before 1981 between the Centurion used overseas and the Centurions used here in the RSA?

Sorry, Bomberman this was exactly what I didn’t want to do! As AFV Club will no doubt be releasing an IDF Sho’t Kal soon, I was hoping to get the info out there so that RSA Armour builders could also benefit from the release.

I’m just waiting for the CD of photos Theunis has sent and then hopefully Theunis & I (plus no doubt a few other people) will be able to put together an article on building the different versions of the Olifant. Plus with any luck we will be able to include enough photos to stop the confusion.

Steve Cruickshank snr (Barv) has the UDF & SADF recovery vehicles more or less sewn up! It’s uncanny how he put these items together. Personally I’m more than a little jealous!




Very Little! If you want to build a UDF / SADF Centurion, then AFV Club’s 35100 Centurion Mk.5/1 RAAC Vietnam Version (with a few minor changes) is the way to go. As the 84mm gun was used by training Units you could build a pre 1980 Centurion vitually OOTB.

Hope This Helps.

PS: Don’t worry about someone telling you it’s wrong, for in the SADF there was bound to be one similar to whatever you build! :-)

Bomberman, also if you’re interested there are (or at least were when I still lived in SA) Centurion / Olifant tanks at the following locations in Gauteng:

Military Museum in Johannesburg (Saxonworld) had at least one Centurion Tank.

Pretoria Regiment at Salvokop had a Centurion Tank

Rooihuiskraal Recreation Grounds in Centurion (Pretoria) had as far as I remember an Olifant Mk1a. It was fenced off, but IIRC a park bench was located near it for the adventurous photographers. This one (if it’s still there) should do nicely for any reference material you may require!

Sorry, not sure is it Pretoria or Tswane?

Sorry about this I also did not want to confuse the issue, but I gather as with the IDF our army's need for security (that sometimes border on paranoia) and the strange way the development went the olifant can be a bit of an enigma.

As to that DVD. Well I finaly got round to editing the video last night, after spending the past two weeks getting my new PC up to scratch and transfering the data between the old one and the new one. So tommorow it is of to the CNA for envelopes and stamps and the stuff will be on the way.

On the article. Pierre's book is complete (well mostly he is once again waiting for me to send him the footage) so we might have more than enough info soon.