Hi all
Read this little snip on a 101st airborne site thought it was quite interesting,
Cheers Chris
PFC Schaefer was a visitor at the World War II Weekend at Eisenhower's Farm. He came up to talk with 2LT Kirby and myself, CPT Ashby. He told us that he served as an ambulance driver in the campaigns in Northern Africa, Sicily and Italy. He was outside the door when General Patton slapped that soldier in the hospital, but that it didn't happen like it did in the movie. In fact, Patton didn't just walk out - the doctors and nurses grabbed a hold of him and dragged him out.
He also said that one time, General Eisenhower saluted him - he was in an ambulance taking a severely wounded man to the aid station, when he came to a road block. They refused to let him pass because General Eisenhower was coming. When Ike heard about it, he told them to let the ambulance pass and saluted the driver.
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Read this on a 101st airborne site
tango20
Member Since: August 01, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 07:30 PM UTC
airwarrior
Member Since: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Chris,
Patton is not my favorite General from WWII, actually I think he was very self-serving. That being said, he was the right man for the job at that time. He reminds me of my old highschool football coach. He didn't give a dang if we liked him or not......as long as we did what he said and won the game.
As for the soldier he slapped........
Well, this is another comment no one will like but I'll say it anyway. Yes, he was right to slap the little yellow @&*#%#!!!. Good men were lying dead on the field, broken and mangled in the hospitols, and this punk was sitting there crying because of his nerves? At that point, I think that most of the guys there who had lost brothers and friends wouldn't have cared if Patton had shot this wuss between the eyes.
My 2cents
Hermon
Umm...
the whole nerves thing is a serious problem. It's called shellshock, and it will drive you crazy. Seeing and experiencing something like War can make you incredibly scared, especialy if you are the type of person who just can't get over it, and it can leave a lasting scar mentally that many cannot get past. Why do you think many veterans never say, or say very little about their war experiences? It is something that some people do not ever want to live again. Nobody is perfect either, or can ignore thngs that others can. Personality, and the ability to deal with things like war is all chemical imbalances in your brain, as one person can step on a crack, or shake somebody's hand, the person who thinks too much about it, the one with the chemical with the wrong imbalance can't because they see and think about it in a way the "normal"person doesn't. Something like shellshock isn't an issue about somebody being a "wuss", but it's something that isn't right in their brains.WEll... Time to get back on topic.
Some interesting stories you got there Chris. It's also interesting how a movie can seriously distort something, by a simple change in who they dragged out of that hospital.
Uruk-Hai
Member Since: January 31, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:19 AM UTC
Interesting about these incidents.
http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap08.html
http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap08.html
airwarrior
Member Since: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 03:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
David,
Please forgive me for stating my opinion about a topic. And thank you for the history/psycology lesson since I was under the impression that anyone who cried was a "wuss".
Hermon
Sorry if I offended you in any way, but your opinion sounded alot to me like you were ripping apart any guy who couldn't take combat. I dout you intended that, but that is just the way I read your message.
Hollowpoint
Member Since: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 09:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
David,
Please forgive me for stating my opinion about a topic. And thank you for the history/psycology lesson since I was under the impression that anyone who cried was a "wuss".
Hermon
Hermon: You might want to do a bit of homework on this one. While it is easy to call someone a "wuss" for crying, but "shellshock," battle fatigue and PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) are very real psychological conditions. These days, we recognize them as such and treat them. Back in the 40s, we'd slap them around and demean them. Frankly, the attitude you express in the quoted post is the type of attitude that keeps people who need it from seeking treatment. Patton was a good battlefield leader, but a lousy psychologist.
Shellshock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_stress_reaction
PTSD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder
Chris: Very cool stories. What site did you find that on?
RobH
Member Since: March 12, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 02:17 PM UTC
Hermon
it could be that Bob was still thinking and typing his answer while you were typing your reply, unaware you were replying. There's only 6 minutes between your posts.
I also believe that regardless, bob is entitled to reply with his opinion.
it could be that Bob was still thinking and typing his answer while you were typing your reply, unaware you were replying. There's only 6 minutes between your posts.
I also believe that regardless, bob is entitled to reply with his opinion.
Halfyank
Member Since: February 01, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 06:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, I thought I had cleared up my position in the last post. I won't bother to post my opinions here anymore.
Hermon, go right ahead and post your opinions. Just don't get upset if others will try to change your opinions, or that they express their own.
Chris, those are good stories.
As to the subject of battle fatigue, shell shock, PTSD, etc, I have this to say. I've never served in combat. I can only go on what I've read, and movies I've seen. Several books, and several movies written by combat veterans, and given me the idea that combat soldiers are more tolerant of men who can't take it than perhaps those who have not been in battle. I don't thnk Patton shared this tolerance. I believe he was a hot head at times who let his emotions run away from him. I agree with Herman that there is a time and place for some things. Having a man sitting and crying in a hospital, taking up space and perhaps tying up hospital staff, while others are still bleeding is probably wrong. Having a general officer slapping around such a man is certainly wrong though.
airwarrior
Member Since: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 08:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
That being said, I DO AGREE with everything you said about mental disorders and chemical imbalances. What I DO NOT AGREE with is that fact that it was "ok" for this soldier to sit and cry in this particular situation. Weakness, whether it is a chemical imbalance, character flaw, or anything else can not be tolerated in SOME situations. This situation is one of those times it could not be tolerated. If one soldier is permitted to jump out of his foxhole and run from an invading army, others will follow. If one soldier is permitted to stay in camp instead of going on patrol because he has "a bad feeling" then others will soon join him. There is a time and place for everything. To allow the soldier in question to sit in a room with other soldiers and cry while other soldiers in need of medical attention from bullet wounds etc. are still out on the front lines fighting is just plain wrong. I'm not saying that that soldier should have been sent back out to the front lines, because in my opinion that would have been even worse. In reality, in my opinion, this guy should have been given a task to take his mind off of some of the things he'd experienced. Latrine duty, kitchen duty.......anything would have been better than to leave him in a hospitol tent crying. Out of fairness to Patton, what is the first thing (in the old days) that someone did to a person who was dazed and babbling or just sits crying? They got a good smack across the face to "jar" them back into reality. Would we do this today under the same circumstances? No, but we are talking about WWII.
AHHH...That clears it all up.
When I read your initial messiage It sounded ore like you thought the guy had nothing wrong with him, an should have just been thrown into combat, or shot on the spot. It just seemed a little cruel to handle a disease, if you know what I mean. My response was aimed at what I thought you meant, not what apparently, you really meant. 
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 09:16 PM UTC
This hardly be considered an 'unbiased' source...
Personally i'm getting tired of these apologies for Patton....Jim
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2006 - 05:45 PM UTC
Hermon, I don't know whether you've ever been in combat, and if you have, what sort of situation it was, but you've obviously no clue as to what shellshock is. I have been in combat, and have seen shellshock close up.
It's as much a battlefield casualty as a sucking chest wound. It's rarely the fault of the casualty, particularly in conscript armies.
You've suggested that if the shellshocked guy isn't dealt with, the condition could spread. It doesn't, just as a nervous breakdown isn't contagious.
I've seen soldiers puke, cry, piss and [auto-censored] themselves and still keep going ( I've pissed myself under fire), the 'wusses'. I've seen a recruit crack in basic training and shoot himself. None of these situations would have been helped by a slapping.
It's easy to sit in front of a pc and comment on how a soldier should conduct himself in situations we should thank the gods most of us will never see.
It's as much a battlefield casualty as a sucking chest wound. It's rarely the fault of the casualty, particularly in conscript armies.
You've suggested that if the shellshocked guy isn't dealt with, the condition could spread. It doesn't, just as a nervous breakdown isn't contagious.
I've seen soldiers puke, cry, piss and [auto-censored] themselves and still keep going ( I've pissed myself under fire), the 'wusses'. I've seen a recruit crack in basic training and shoot himself. None of these situations would have been helped by a slapping.
It's easy to sit in front of a pc and comment on how a soldier should conduct himself in situations we should thank the gods most of us will never see.
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