i'm not trying to create a mountain over a molehill...but, I had a question about the non-use of swastikas on models or other places on the internet. It seems that the PC crowd has casually inforced a ban on the symbol in alot of places. Why is this? I've seen modelers not use it on kits where it would have been correct to do so. I believe that EBAY and other type sites have banned the showing of the symbol on their site. Even THIS site seems to have joined in on the practice. Am I wrong in thinking this? , or has the sudden use by Vinnie as his site signature only prompted me to think so?
in a quandry in alabama...kevin
Spare Parts
For non-modeling topics and those without a home elsewhere.
For non-modeling topics and those without a home elsewhere.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
swastika use on site
kglack43
Member Since: September 18, 2003
entire network: 842 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:25 AM UTC
3442
Member Since: March 23, 2004
entire network: 2,412 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,030 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:32 AM UTC
tamiya has an old figure set with little swastika decals for the helmets, wasnt it agaisnt hte law or soemthing to produce these decals? i remember a post talking about the subject.Frank
Stormbringer
Member Since: January 20, 2002
entire network: 1,667 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:37 AM UTC
I believe that use of the swastika is banned in germany and that's why a lot of kits don't have them in. Perhaps that was the beginning. I'm certainly unaware of any ban on here.
Pete
Pete
Teacher
Member Since: April 05, 2003
entire network: 4,924 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:42 AM UTC
Hmmmm....since I'm only trying out sig banners, and since I have no intention at all to be controversial, I'll remove it. I do see what you mean though, i suppose some cultures even now, might deem it's use inappropriate. I'd like to thank Marty though for designing a banner for me, including the one I'm using now. Thanks Marty! I owe you one mate!
Vinnie
Vinnie
95bravo
Member Since: November 18, 2003
entire network: 2,242 Posts
KitMaker Network: 488 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:52 AM UTC
I can fully understand the rationale to a point in avoiding the glorification of the Nazis, yet at the same time, I think it's a-historical and furthermore by retaining it on a vehicle, aircraft, or whatever, I believe it serves as a rather strong reminder of a period and ideology that is best not forgotten. Lest we wish to risk a repeat in future generations. That said, I do respect choice of those who wish not to display it.
Best wishes
Steve
Best wishes
Steve
ShermiesRule
Member Since: December 11, 2003
entire network: 5,409 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:55 AM UTC
I think France bans them as well. I am unaware of any rules on Big A restricting them but I believe it would be illegal for French and German users to view pages with Swasitkas
chip250
Member Since: September 01, 2002
entire network: 1,864 Posts
KitMaker Network: 606 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:02 AM UTC
I believe that it is incorporated into the kit. We are trying to produce the most realistic version of this particular object in miniature, and therefore this must be incorprated on it to futhermore enhance its authenticity.
Thats why I love America.
~CHip
Thats why I love America.
~CHip
Ripster
Member Since: June 01, 2005
entire network: 970 Posts
KitMaker Network: 160 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:16 AM UTC
It isn't a purely Nazi symbol in any case. Many races and religions have used it, over 1000's of years. Take a look here
Halfyank
Member Since: February 01, 2003
entire network: 5,221 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,983 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It isn't a purely Nazi symbol in any case. Many races and religions have used it, over 1000's of years. Take a look here
Also it's an interesting irony that an American infantry division, the 45th Infantry, wore a swastika on their shoulder patch for many years. http://www.omd.state.ok.us/45InfBde/swastika.htm
For myself I can see both sides. I hate the Nazis with all the passion that I can. I don't ever want to see them glorified in any way. That said I hate censorship, especially historical censorship in the guise of being "politically correct" just as much. If the symbol is being used in historic context, i.e. on the helmets of the SS, on the tails of Luftwaffe aircraft, as aircraft recognition symbols on ships, etc, then I have no issue with it.
I didn't see Vinnie's banner before he changed it, or I didn't notice it. I doubt that he would have been glorifying the Nazis, but it is possible if he had a swastika on his banner some people could take it that he was.
In short I'm totally against banning it on models, here or in kits, but I don't want to see it splashed all over the place for no good reason.
Ripster
Member Since: June 01, 2005
entire network: 970 Posts
KitMaker Network: 160 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:31 AM UTC
I agree wholeheartedly. Stalin probably killed more people than the Nazis (not something I want to get into a debate over though, thanks!), but I don't know of any call for red stars or hammers and sickles being banned.
Marty
Member Since: June 16, 2002
entire network: 2,312 Posts
KitMaker Network: 871 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:42 AM UTC
Honestly, I do not understand what the big deal is. It's not like this is a Neo Nazi site and we are all skinheads with swastika tattoos on our foreheads running around screaming Sieg Heil.
Indeed Hitler was a really bad guy but so was Stalin. Only difference is that nobody knows how many people were killed by the old Soviet regime. So now what? Are we supposed to stop using/displaying soviet symbols. Personally I think that the SS scull symbol is a lot more offensive than the Swastika, which as Ripster pointed out, was a religious sign at one point or another.
Just because someone is forbidden to display a symbol, doesn't mean that his/her believes will be altered in any way.
Aren't we trying to capture history in miniature? Wasn't swastika part of that history? There is enough political bull crap (am I allowed to say that?) in this world. Let's not bring it into this great hobby of hours.
OK. I am off my soap box
Disclaimer: I am nor was I ever associated with any Neo Nazi political organizations. I am simply a modeler trying to accurately capture history in miniature
Vinnie I too liked the banner you picked first. Too bad you can't use it Oh, and you are very much welcome my friend.
Indeed Hitler was a really bad guy but so was Stalin. Only difference is that nobody knows how many people were killed by the old Soviet regime. So now what? Are we supposed to stop using/displaying soviet symbols. Personally I think that the SS scull symbol is a lot more offensive than the Swastika, which as Ripster pointed out, was a religious sign at one point or another.
Just because someone is forbidden to display a symbol, doesn't mean that his/her believes will be altered in any way.
Aren't we trying to capture history in miniature? Wasn't swastika part of that history? There is enough political bull crap (am I allowed to say that?) in this world. Let's not bring it into this great hobby of hours.
OK. I am off my soap box
Disclaimer: I am nor was I ever associated with any Neo Nazi political organizations. I am simply a modeler trying to accurately capture history in miniature
Quoted Text
I'd like to thank Marty though for designing a banner for me, including the one I'm using now.
Vinnie I too liked the banner you picked first. Too bad you can't use it
Oh, and you are very much welcome my friend.
TedMamere
Member Since: May 15, 2005
entire network: 5,653 Posts
KitMaker Network: 760 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think France bans them as well. I am unaware of any rules on Big A restricting them but I believe it would be illegal for French and German users to view pages with Swasitkas
Hi all!
It's right, in France the swastika is not allowed on kit covers, instructions and decal sheets. A lot of kits have their swastikas masked over or simply cut away on decals... but some manufacturers found the simple solution of providing the swastika decal in two parts... On some kit's covers, the symbole is replaced by a different but similar one.
But models with swastikas are tolerated at shows and Historical books and aircraft model magazines shows them as well... I think as long as it is used historically and on purpose, it won't give you trouble here even on websites...
Jean-Luc
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 06:49 PM UTC
The open display of the swastika is banned in many European countries - the key word being OPEN . The addition of swastika decals is NOT banned as many thnk. Rather they are omitted so the model companies can avoid the danger of lawsuits...
To an extent, I fnd the term
Some sites have banned it, for their own reasons. As such, since it doesn't affect THIS site, I fail to see that there is any issue whatsoever. It is also worth remembering, that websites are like any privately owned places, the owners/operators have the right to refuse admission...Jim
To an extent, I fnd the term
Quoted Text
an over-simplification. In Germany, for example, the Swastika has been banned (for good reason) since the 1940s.'It seems that the PC crowd has casually inforced a ban'
Some sites have banned it, for their own reasons. As such, since it doesn't affect THIS site, I fail to see that there is any issue whatsoever. It is also worth remembering, that websites are like any privately owned places, the owners/operators have the right to refuse admission...Jim
almonkey
Member Since: March 23, 2003
entire network: 2,124 Posts
KitMaker Network: 369 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 04:54 AM UTC
two things, the first is that we are all level headed intelligent people here who know that a swastica on a kit does not make us into nazis. the other point was that a while ago i read an article in an aviation mag about whether swastikas should be painted on ww2 restored aircraft, so its not only us who have this dillemma
GSPatton
Member Since: September 04, 2002
entire network: 1,411 Posts
KitMaker Network: 785 Posts
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2005 - 05:24 AM UTC
Modeling should be confined to the reproducing of historically accurate minatures of actual vehicles, planes ships etc. When the PC crowd is allowed to corrupt that is when the hobby is no longer a hobby.
I build a model of the German Battleship Bismark. On the deck is a large swastika - Am I condoning Nazisim? NO! I am buliding an accurate model of that ship. I build a model of a BF 109, FW 190 or any other Luffwafer plane that flew in WWII, am I condoning what the Nazis did in the war - NO! I am building an accurate model.
Building a historically accurate model is just that historically accurate. Too often the knee-jerk faction is too willing to condem all without thinking. The Swastika is a symbol with origins dating back to the Egyptians - should all displays of Egyptian artifacts with a swastika be covered up, or worse destroyed?
The symbol is a symbol and by itself does no harm. It was how it was used that now makes it outlawed.
I build a model of the German Battleship Bismark. On the deck is a large swastika - Am I condoning Nazisim? NO! I am buliding an accurate model of that ship. I build a model of a BF 109, FW 190 or any other Luffwafer plane that flew in WWII, am I condoning what the Nazis did in the war - NO! I am building an accurate model.
Building a historically accurate model is just that historically accurate. Too often the knee-jerk faction is too willing to condem all without thinking. The Swastika is a symbol with origins dating back to the Egyptians - should all displays of Egyptian artifacts with a swastika be covered up, or worse destroyed?
The symbol is a symbol and by itself does no harm. It was how it was used that now makes it outlawed.
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 10:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
as far as i understand it and this was explained by a buddhist friend, if the sign has a square appearance, that is too say all the sides are either horizontal or vertical then it is a religious symbol and NOT a swastika. In this state it means peace and harmony.
however when the sides of the symbol have been moved so that they are now at a 45 degree angle, then this is a true swastika. the symbology now represents caos and disorder.
HTH
Close, James, but not quite.
I haven't heard the above theory, but the origins of the Nazi swastika comes from the Sanskrit symbol of northern India which was once populated by Aryans. The original Sanskrit symbol had two forms, one for light and power, the other for darkness and evil, a bit like the yinyang symbol.
Here in Sri Lanka, the majority race (Sinhalese) claim decent from the Aryans and so the swastika's quite common in architecture and cultural symbolism.
As far as I know, the swastika has nothing to do with Buddhism. It's just that the Buddhist religion was carried from India to many other Asian countries in its original Sanskrit texts, and so the swastika went with it.
Quoted Text
The open display of the swastika is banned in many European countries - the key word being OPEN . The addition of swastika decals is NOT banned as many thnk. Rather they are omitted so the model companies can avoid the danger of lawsuits...
Quite right. I've seen lots of Luftwaffe kits on display in Germany which included swastika tail jobs.But kitmakers are treating this area with some sensitivity when it comes to figs (obviously). Ever wonder what's so 'elite' about Tamiya's 1/16 German Elite Infantryman? For elite read SS. The word elite's used all over the box art to describe SS cam etc.
Hope that post's not too long
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 02:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
i will bow to better knowledge on the subject
The link Ripster provided's pretty good if you are interested in more info, James.
Anyway, while it's upto individuals to decide how insensitive a swastika can be on a model, I think Germany's policy can be an indication. No public displays, but no ban on individual rights.
Maybe a German member of this forum could comment with more insight.
I suppose the cross on a Templar or Hospitaller fig might be seen as insensitive in some parts of the middle east.
Darktrooper
Member Since: November 05, 2004
entire network: 581 Posts
KitMaker Network: 146 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 02:36 AM UTC
I have no problem with the swastika being shown on models or with Nazi Memorabilia, when they are being shown for historical purposes. There is a difference between Historical accuracy and glorification. from what I have seen here, it's Histroical Accuracy. Blame the Skinheads and Neo-Nazi's for Glorification.
BTW, on the Tamiya ME-262 model that I'm building the decal sheet has the Swastikas on it, but on the decal placement instructions it is just a white diamond showing where the swastika decals are supposed to go.
BTW, on the Tamiya ME-262 model that I'm building the decal sheet has the Swastikas on it, but on the decal placement instructions it is just a white diamond showing where the swastika decals are supposed to go.
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 02:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I suppose the cross on a Templar or Hospitaller fig might be seen as insensitive in some parts of the middle east.
Now THAT is a very interesting point...Jim
AndyD
Member Since: December 01, 2004
entire network: 672 Posts
KitMaker Network: 218 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 03:23 AM UTC
Context - it's all about context.
I'm sure no level headed society is going to push for legal action against a modeller with a swastika on one of their kits.
A Neo-Nazi / Oi Skin however may be a different story.
I have always found it odd that a swastika is illegal in some parts - yet is a totenkopf symbol?
I'm sure no level headed society is going to push for legal action against a modeller with a swastika on one of their kits.
A Neo-Nazi / Oi Skin however may be a different story.
I have always found it odd that a swastika is illegal in some parts - yet is a totenkopf symbol?
jRatz
Member Since: March 06, 2004
entire network: 1,171 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 01:07 PM UTC
I'd buy all this "historical" stuff if there was a historically proportional representation of subjects, either from manufacturers or modelers. But since that isn't the case, there must be other reasons ....
How about this -- if you are unhappy about lack of swastika's in kits, then stop buying them. Maybe then both the manufacturers and modelers will focus on something else -- like all the other countries ....
Just a thought ...
John
How about this -- if you are unhappy about lack of swastika's in kits, then stop buying them. Maybe then both the manufacturers and modelers will focus on something else -- like all the other countries ....
Just a thought ...
John
spooky6
Member Since: May 05, 2005
entire network: 2,174 Posts
KitMaker Network: 613 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 04:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have always found it odd that a swastika is illegal in some parts - yet is a totenkopf symbol?
Neither symbol is illegal in Germany, Andy. Just open display of the swastika. If you wonder why, consider that a mere sixty-odd years ago, guys wearing those same swastikas on their arms snuffed six million plus people. I'd be a bit touchy too if that had happened in my country.
Ever wonder why neo-nazi groups have modifications of the swastika on their flags and not the real thing? It's to avoid the public display clause.
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 KitMaker Network and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.