Is it just me or does any one else find it annoying when the AM products cost for than the kit itself?

My example is the Tamiya Daimler Dingo Mk2. The kit is cheaper than the Eduard PE. Granted in this case the difference is small and the prices of both products are relatively low (relative to which exchange rate you're buying in, that is! ) My gripe is, though, that it ends up costing you double just to produce a model you can be truly proud of - not that there's anything wrong with building OOB...

Is my frustation misdirected? Should I be angry at the likes of Tamiya for producing kits that need AM products to make them competitive with the likes of Dragon?

Judging from the long list of new releases from Eduard there are alot of kits that need improvement out there. Interestingly enough, very few for Dragon kits. Tells you something, doesn't it? Pretty clear message to the old school.

Is there collusion between the AM manufacturers and the kit manufacturers? Are we the unwitting victims of a conspiracy?

The Tamiya model is a dinosaur, I think I bought my first one around 1974, for around UK£0.99...

Perhaps this thread should be shame on Tamiya for knocking out the same old stuff at new prices?

It can get worse, specially if you build something even more esoteric like French stuff. Fruil tracks for the old Heller H35 cost UK£23.50 which is nearly 3 and half times what I paid for the tank!! Then there's new heads for the crew (from Hornet UK£6 for a set of 5) and some PE, from an old OTM set which I can't remember how much I paid for.

I also have Heller's Somua (UK£9.99), tracks same price as for the Hotchkiss, plus a decent resin turret for UK£12, and some more Hornet heads and PE. Plus the Trackstory book UK£10.95 and the old Profile (from Kingkit).

Blimey, might be cheaper to build Tiger IIs

AM is only one solution. Why not try to scratch some simple improvements? You can check around for a digital image of the PE or get a photocopy and make similar parts from the metal from a coke can. Most PE sets are mainly thinner parts that already included in the kit. I believe you´d amaze yourself if you took this route. The kit is cheap enough and simple enough to have a go at this. Im sure if you asked, suitable reference is available.
Adding a PE set alone, will not bring the kit up to today´s standards. Skills learnt along the way, can also achieve amazing results .. scratching, painting, weathering, etc. are all needed. These new skills can then be taken to the next level each time.

Ive been thinking often along the same lines as yourself. You´re lucky in the fact that the dingo is one of the easier repairs. When building tanks from the likes of Italeri or older Tamiya and Eastern block companies, unfortunately, Friuls are the only alternative.
Now-a-days I dont mind adding some extras. Some of these old kits can be built in a few hours. Adding a pe set and tracks may at least treble the price, but you treble the modelling time and based on your skill level could treble the quality of the finished kit.
I guess it all about perspective and how you look at it. But to answer your question ....


Yes ... me too! :-)
Hopefully Dragon have set a standard now, that other companies will follow suit. All in one box models are looking better all the time.

I guess I'll probably never have a AFV with aftermarket costing more then the AFV itself, unless it is given to me, cause I'll never pay for it, I draw the line to a certain percentage.

I know they got a lot of work in a lot of these things, but I need to be doing this work myself, it is a shame that some take advantage just because people will pay these exorbitant amounts they have gotten this hobby to where it is not for the young anymore.

No way parents can afford these prices for their children, we have a hard time to do it ourselves anymore, so how could a working person buy for their children.

They are going to price themselves out of a future clients.

Kerry

I guess really its all about how you want to spend your discretionary hobby money. Do you want to do lots of builds in a year? Or do you want to really detail the heck out of just a couple of kits? I bet in the end, after you take all into consideration, the amount you spend would equal out pretty well. For me I would rather spend more time on less kits and produce a more detailed project. That means the money I would have spent on kits can be spent on AM stuff. I also use less glue, paints, and bases for the finished product (Sorry Bryan! ).

Sometimes the aftermarket parts don't really improve the original kit. It pays to do a little reserach and ask some questions before spending money on parts that aren't really need or make a kit incorrect. An example that comes to mind are kits that include PE grab handles -- it is much more realistic to make your own handles from wire than to use the flat etched brass.

As far as aftermarket costing more than the kit, well, that happens. Kind of depends what you want. I won an Eastern Express KV kit in a contest raffle and mated the lower hull and suspension with a MB Models resin KV-85 turret and Rubio barrel I picked up years ago for about $5. It took a bit of work and scratch-building to make the conversion, but when it was done, it did not bother me a bit to put some $40 Friul tracks on it. The way I look at it, I have about $100 worth of model with only $45 out of pocket.

I agree with John on this one. I for one usually buy several am kits for one project and dont have a problem spending the dosh on quality parts. I get my money's worth everytime. Like John said it's discretionary and I have the money earmarked for the hobby anyway..not the groceries or the mortgage. I might only build a handfull of models a year but thats just how I like it.
Bryan
p.s
Now John as to the bases..I would rather see quality models on my bases than quantity..and your stuff is just that.
Cheers,

This is the way it's beensince there were aftermarket parts. I remeber hearing of a guy who listed $150 of aftermqaret on a 1/48th F-15. In the mid 80's!

Tis is one of those areas where there is no right or wrong. Afteramrket is smaller production so there needs to be a higher amrk up to regain the costs.

If building OOB floats your boat, great. If adding every aftermarket accessory makes you happy, just as great.

If you're having fun, it's all good.

Perhaps the Dingo is a bad example due to it's antiquity, but it's a kit I'm considering purchasing at the moment.

Perhaps a better and more recent example (and just to demonstrate that I am not targetting Tamiya in particular - only by about 90% :-) ) is the Trumpeter 1/32 Republic F105-D Thunderchief. The kit sells for about US$54 - depending on who you buy from. The Eduard PE exterior for this model sells for about US$30, and the colour PE interior for US$40. You do the math - 'nuff sed!

Have I got the wrong end here? Is it perhaps Eduard ripping us off?

As for making it myself, it's not really an option for me as I don't have the patience and I'm embarrassed to say I'm part of the microwave generation - where I want it here, now and quickly! Just because I'm prepared to throw money at the situation to make it better or make it go away, doesn't mean I should be ripped off or that I'm still not conservative with how I spend my cash...

Firstly, I have to say that Eduard, Aber, Royal and all the rest of the aftermarket boys are companies that would like to make a profit, same as Tamiya, Dragon etc. So Rudi, you cannot blame Tamiya etc. for knocking out kits that you see as needing AF. Whether they needed it or not, Eduard et. al. would still produce something for every kit they can. It's a matter of personal choice whether or not you buy it. You have to remember that a lot of the kits you see as needing AF were state of the art when first produced, therefore Tamiya and Dragon have every right to continue releasing them as long as people buy them. After that as well for that matter. I have to agree with a lot of replies in this thread, that scratchbuilding might be worth trying, but also you can buy sets of things such as PE WW11 German tool clamps, fire extinguisher etc, which will service a lot of kits and negate the need to purchase a different AF set for each kit.

Vinnie

This is a hobby, by nature only discretionary income is spent on it. The first,level of discretionary income is buying the F-105. You then make an informed decision to add PE or not and spend another level of discretionary income. Hopefully, you've researched the original kit and its accuracy before making the decision to buy a detail set for it.

As to being ripped off by Eduard (or any AM company). You don't NEED thiese items, you WANT them. Eduard has to recoup a lot of research time and effort, raw material. instructions, packaging, distribution and retail costs on items that will have a realively limited shelf life and demand. If the F-105 goes OOP, all existing stocks of PE will have almost no retail value.

That's the main reason why I will never buy any AM parts in the near future. Bought 1 Eduard Barrel + Eduard PE for the Tamiya Flak 88, Verlinden superdetail set for the F-16A and F-14A. Wasn't satisfied at all. Those would be the last PE parts I'll ever buy. Too expensive and hey, scratching is fun :-)

I believe this has become the accepted norm. With the exception of an expensive largers kit like the Dragon Wagon or a comparable kit, aftermarket accessories are usually more than the actual kit.

Additionally, if you build a tank and feel the need to replace the tracks ($15-30), buy an aluminum barrel ($10-20), add a photo etched set ($20+) and add other items like stowage or aftermarket zimmerit ($20), your project becomes quite expensive.

One of the reasons I started building 1/72 scale armor again is that there wasn't much aftermarket to tempt me down the path to AMS. But recently, the AM market has kicked into high gear and now I can get resin or PE zimmerit, aluminum barrels and PE detail sets for most of the mainstream model kits.

Check out the 1/72 scale Abrams kits. At Squadron.com the Revell kit retails for $10 and the Eduard PE set is $21.

The Dragon Abrams is $8 or $9 depending on version and the Eduard PE set for it is $18.

There is a cheaper set for the Revell kit, but it is still $10. There are also storage sets that run another $14 by CMK.

I used to hate that too. I bought an Italeri Tiget I Early for $14.99 and Fruils for $32!!! That's 214% the kit price. I consider myself lucky that the Tiger was an older kit and price reduced cheap because of all the new $30+ Academy, Tamiya and Dragon Tigers that came out. However if I compare the original Tiger tracks to the Tiger with Fruils there is clearly a different standard.

Also there is a small set of PE for headlight guards and antennae stand inside the Dragon Sherman Fireflies. I just love the look of that PE. After seeing some of the fantastic PE jobs on fellow Big A builds it's tempting to go get a set.

As much as I hate spending that kind of cash on a build I can see the merits. If i were to go for a show entry I will certainly add some to my baby!

IIRC correctly, the suspension was the least acceptable part of the Tamiya Dingo with state-of-the-Ark steerable front wheels and solid coil springs.

And I think the time/cost differential between assembling the H-35 and it's tracks is going to be slightly more than 3.5:1

Still I'm glad I got hold of the base models so cheaply

Very true. I'll admit to not thinking about from the side of the AM manufacturer.

I guess I am sort of the middle of the road. I build many kits OOB or with minimal scratch stuff. I also build with PE if I really want the stuff. It is totally up to me how I build. I also don't worry about contests. I enter what I want to enter. I do not buy stuff specially for a contest. If I feel I have done a good job on what I built then I am satisfied with what I have done. I am too old to worry alot about what others may think of my work! I enjoy our hobby too much to be down about it.
capnjock

On the flip side if the prices were a little lower perhaps they could move more units and not have to worry about extra stock if a kit goes OOP. I don't know what kind of margins AM can fetch. Perhaps there is no margin to give.

Back in the day when I was in retail, the over the counter price included about 40% to the retailer. ($8 of the $20 set to the store) About 25% of the wholesale went to the distributor ($4 of the remaining $12) so the manufacturer might get $8 a unit to cover R&D, material, packaging, taxes and labor before Mr. Eduard takes home any money for himself.

well a multi discussed item on the run again.
I was against PE sets , cause i liked to scratch the things i can, and also they seemed to be too expensive. One more reason is that theyre not imported here and i always have to order mailorder and wait and the likes. Lately , that older kits are sold in lower prices like 10-15 $ for a tank , u can give some same bucks to get a good PE set to make the tank looking better . But till there no more.
With new standards like DML has set with last kits , and have them running around 30 - 35 $ i think , a serious modelller wouldnt have to spend more. Sionce u get good tracks, PE , and many goodies like metal shells and the likes, its up to u to extend ur building and painting skills to make the super looking model. And if ure a rivet counter and need more detail, then get to be a rivet builder as well!!!! Scratch ur self out . At the times of info and reference available easier than coca cola, u can have on screen whatever u look for , so just try ...

Costas

Major Goose, while I certainly respect your opinion, I think personal choice is the order of the day. While some may want to scratch the whole deal as you say, others want to add detail without the effort to scratch. For me personally I do both! I add as much as I can with the PE set, if available, then take it the rest of the way scratching. This way I get the best of both worlds!

IMO its silly to limit yourself and say I WONT do this or I NEVER will do that.

I only use PE for engine grills......or if PE comes with the kit. If not, it's too expensive for me and I actually don't really like working with it any (ok it's nice once finished but I don't like working with it during the build)

I like to use alu barrels, but also only when really needed.....AM stuff is really too expensive!

Cheers,
Martin

I think Im with Vinnie on this one, Im building a M8 greyhound so far Ive baught Verlinden wheels with snow chains £10.00 Archer transfers £6.80, now Im toying with the verlinden stowage set £9.50 up to now the kit cost less than that little lot but I model a lot of ww2 u.s. vehicles and I stil have 2 thirds of the archer transfers left and will have nearly 50 percent of the stowage left all of which i can use on my next project a M10 so I consider thats quite economical but I must say Ive never used P.E. because I think it is very expensive for what you get.