Modeling in General
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General discussions about modeling topics.
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Prince Harry and modelling...
Name_1s_MUD
Member Since: January 07, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:50 AM UTC
We run into this problem all the time in America... but not with swastikas... with the Confederate Flag. In fact, an 1970's TV show called Dukes of Hazard is being remade here and the new Duke car (the General Lee) will not have the Confederate flag on it.
Elad
Member Since: June 19, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In all fairness what about the flag of Japan, since their imperialism murdered so many too.
And the Americans when they nuked 2 cities in Japan? And the Russians for invading Afganistan, etc. There's been enthic cleansing in Kosovo, Africa, etc, etc, even in Butan.
none of these examples shows a nation that made the total annihilation of another race it's supreme effort using psuedo scientific justifications and doing so in the same efficiancy as an industrial assembly line (ain't that what the death camps were? factories which produced death for jews, gypsies, slavics etc.).
yes, Japan's imperialism, Slovodan Miloshovic's tyrany and even the Crusades of the middle ages all involved a 'flavour' of racism but none of them went as far as finding a way to kill as many Jews with a single bullet because they wanted to keep the cost of killing them at minmum and yeilding maximum 'production' rate per bullet.
nor did any of these held a list of Jewish communities in Europe and made the effort to find and kill the 200 jews who lived in Albania. the smallest town in Poland didnt hold so few and still the Nazis saw that even this small community be erased.
Quoted Text
Yes they should ban the Swastika but only under the circumstances that it is being used to put forth a bias negative message.
I agree with this statement, I wont build Luftwaffe planes because of the Swastikas (altough I find them the coolest looking of all WWII warbirds), but I belive the freedom to build and show them should not be denied from any modeler who wishes to do so.
unless of course that can make manufacturers produce more allied stuff
Hollowpoint
Member Since: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:59 AM UTC
I heard about this on the news yesterday and was tempted to post something about it, but thought I'd give our European brothers a chance to comment first.
Once again, someone is trying to legislate common sense -- this time because some young royal showed a total lack of it. Amazing on a bunch of levels ...
um, John? It's the First Amendment that protects freedom of speech ... the Second Amendment is the right to bear arms ...
I agree that it is a slippery slope. Symbols are tricky things and mean very different things to different people. Hindus and others have been mentioned -- the swastika is also a holy symbol to some Native Americans.
Once again, someone is trying to legislate common sense -- this time because some young royal showed a total lack of it. Amazing on a bunch of levels ...
Quoted Text
This is a perfect example of the slippery slope of censorship, and why our 2nd amendment rights are well the 2nd amendment to the Constitution. Our forefathers thought the expression of free speech, reguardless of how offensive, is an imutable and unalienable right!
um, John? It's the First Amendment that protects freedom of speech ... the Second Amendment is the right to bear arms ...
I agree that it is a slippery slope. Symbols are tricky things and mean very different things to different people. Hindus and others have been mentioned -- the swastika is also a holy symbol to some Native Americans.
Easy_Co
Member Since: September 11, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:16 AM UTC
Got to agree with most of what was said here, I followed the Rabid press coverage and listened to the wailing and nashing of teeth of the champions of P.C.Now what bothers me is the report afterwards about a woman who worked in a womans refuge who made a silly joke about an Asian womans name this woman a professional in her field was told she would be sent for "Re Education" that sent a chill down my spine I grew up through the cold war and heard that expression from Stalin & co maybe next year they can open some Gulags and introduce the thought police. 
Grumpyoldman
ConsigliereMember Since: October 17, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It's the First Amendment that protects freedom of speech ... the Second Amendment is the right to bear arms ...
Yep.......
I wonder if I painted a Native American, who used this symbol as a sign of good luck, and good hunting, way before the white man arrived to rape, pillage and plunder, would I be arrested for showing it in certain European countries????
Personally, I think he's just a 20 year old kid who just didn't think, reguardless of title. He's not the first 20 year old who didn't think, he's not going to be the last.
Wasn't there a Willy Shakespeare play..... "Much to do about Nothing"????? or was that someone else??? Senile you know!!!!!
Sticky
Member Since: September 14, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:46 AM UTC
opps, thanks Bob I ment the first but typed 2nd. Duh. but while we are on the subject i thing the 2nd amendment rights may come into play here as well. It seems the Brits cannot even go hunting these days unless they use a cap gun!
kubelmanjam
Member Since: December 22, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not only that, it wasn't even a particularly authentic one at that - from the photo, it looked like a white short sleeved shirt that had some cheap repro insignia stitched on - the armband was particularly badly made.
It put me in mind of those comic books we used to read as kids, the ones where all the Germans had swastika armbands on in the desert etc.
the shirt wasnt even the right colour
wilson
Member Since: November 06, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:04 AM UTC
I was living in Germany when I got back into modelling about 8 years ago. I was looking around a toy/hobby shop and found some Tamiya models which had paint blobs on the boxes. After buying and getting back to barracks to start the models I noticed that the blobs actually covered the swastika nad SS runes on a figures uniform and helmet. This got up my curiosity and in the pubs and bars I could get no-one (local) to have a conversation about this. I feel this is an embarassment to the Germans, as it would be to any nation, and therefore thay are trying to cover it up and hope it will go away. I cannot accept this and as previously posted you cannot delete history! I don't know what the Germans teach the kids at school, but like any nation with something to hide I can only assume it is the bare minimum. I guess it is the same as the English schools and their lack of teaching about the things the Empire did in the "good old days" to every country they occupied!!
No offense meant, I married an English rose and have two wonderful English boys who some day may grow up to represent Northern Ireland in something!!!
Dream on
Sam
No offense meant, I married an English rose and have two wonderful English boys who some day may grow up to represent Northern Ireland in something!!!
Dream on
Sam
ShermiesRule
Member Since: December 11, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:05 AM UTC
For a guy as rich as he is and with the resources he has I just cannot believe he would select such an unfitting costume. What was he thinking? It wasn't even a them party like dress as your favorite bad guy or something. He actually picked that out of any subject in the universe!!!
I don't think that the symbols should be banned. I think Harry should be bannished. Maybe he should work as a tour guide for the summer at the concentration camp instead of just going to visit.
I don't think that the symbols should be banned. I think Harry should be bannished. Maybe he should work as a tour guide for the summer at the concentration camp instead of just going to visit.
AngryDog
Member Since: March 27, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:27 AM UTC
On a positive note, we've made some progress, here we are from all over the world sharing our views on a sensitive subject without getting at each other's throats.
I'm 3rd generation Eurasian with enthic descent of French,Portuguese,Spanish,Dutch,English, Northern Indian and Chinese. My sister in law is Chinese, my brother in law is German.
Yes the Germans and so many other nations committed terrible crimes. (many nations still are) But if it wasn't the Prince or someone "influencial" wearing that arm band, we probably won't be discussing this right now.
The way I look at it, it'll be pretty darn horrible if I were to be sensitive to such things like Nazism, Imprerialism,communism, rasicism,etc,etc cause if I did than I'll just about hold some resentment towards alot of enthic groups and religions, yet at the same feel a sense of shame for the atrocities my forefathers "may" have commited.
The ironical part about being "mixed blood", is that until just over a decade ago, we didn't have an easy time being accepted by the majority of the population here, we were either really liked or resented cause of the way we looked and since we don't really belong to any enthic group.
It's kind of stupid, but hey, people always find a reason to find fault, until the majority grows more brains or society learns and teaches more understanding as the world is and will be getting more and more cosmopolitan and "mixed" with inter-marriages.
We should all learn to let go of negative-ness just a bit, too bad that world leaders seem to be the slowest to learn that.
Hohenstaufen
Member Since: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 09:19 AM UTC
Yes, one does wonder why the Europeans get so steamed up about swastikas, could it be a guilty conscience?
The big problem with the edicts that come from Brussels, is that unlike the UK, European law tends to be based on the old Napoleonic code. This specifies that you can't do anything unless there's a law that says you CAN, as opposed to being allowed to do anything unless there's a law that says you CAN'T. A small difference in appearance, but all the world in application.
The person we have to thank for all this was a dictator who conquered all of Europe, causing along the way the deaths of many thousands, whose troops executed thousands of Spanish civilians who had the temerity to object to having their country invaded, & who invaded & laid waste vast tracts of Russia. What, he was French? Ah, that makes it OK then. Also it happened 200 years ago rather than 60. So perhaps in 140 years Hitler will be seen as a national hero?
I think I'm right in saying that the swastikas used as a symbol of good luck, & in Sanskrit are written the opposite way round, ie the Nazis reversed it. This is supposed to be bad luck, it certainly was for Hitler in the long run.
By the way, the old Airfix kits never had swastika transfers with them, & this is 30 years ago.
The big problem with the edicts that come from Brussels, is that unlike the UK, European law tends to be based on the old Napoleonic code. This specifies that you can't do anything unless there's a law that says you CAN, as opposed to being allowed to do anything unless there's a law that says you CAN'T. A small difference in appearance, but all the world in application.
The person we have to thank for all this was a dictator who conquered all of Europe, causing along the way the deaths of many thousands, whose troops executed thousands of Spanish civilians who had the temerity to object to having their country invaded, & who invaded & laid waste vast tracts of Russia. What, he was French? Ah, that makes it OK then. Also it happened 200 years ago rather than 60. So perhaps in 140 years Hitler will be seen as a national hero?
I think I'm right in saying that the swastikas used as a symbol of good luck, & in Sanskrit are written the opposite way round, ie the Nazis reversed it. This is supposed to be bad luck, it certainly was for Hitler in the long run.
By the way, the old Airfix kits never had swastika transfers with them, & this is 30 years ago.
Name_1s_MUD
Member Since: January 07, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 09:49 AM UTC
My wife has asked me not to apply the swastikas on my German WW2 models, and I've happily obliged. She feels uneasy with what they represented. WHile I don't agree, I love her too much to make a big deal about it.
Snowhand
Member Since: January 08, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:15 AM UTC
Here are my comments:
About prince Harry: he should have known better... even after 60 years, the actions of what the 3rd reich had done are still fresh all along Europe. It was, after all, the first war in which civillians were a designated target.
About the swastika and such: I think people should have a choice wheather to do them or not... I won't.. that's all.
About banning signs.... try walking anywhere in the US with a hemp leaf on your t-shirt....
propaganda is allready more widespread than many of us think....
About prince Harry: he should have known better... even after 60 years, the actions of what the 3rd reich had done are still fresh all along Europe. It was, after all, the first war in which civillians were a designated target.
About the swastika and such: I think people should have a choice wheather to do them or not... I won't.. that's all.
About banning signs.... try walking anywhere in the US with a hemp leaf on your t-shirt....
propaganda is allready more widespread than many of us think....
janwillem
Member Since: October 01, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:10 AM UTC
I just send a E-mail to the dutch EU-site.
I'll post there reply as soon as I get it
Jan-Willem
I'll post there reply as soon as I get it
Jan-Willem
Hohenstaufen
Member Since: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 01:05 PM UTC
BTW my previous comments were written very tongue in cheek.
What makes Prince Harry's gaffe more piquant is the fact that some of his relatives (eg the Duke of Windsor) found Hitler quite appealing. If he was truly ignorant of the likely effect of his choice of costume, it speaks volumes about the state of British education.
If the EU really thinks that banning the use of the SS runes & swastikas from plastic kits is going to be effective or is an appropriate step, it similarly speaks volumes for them.
Personally I don't care. I never display my stuff publicly, & I frequently have to paint the SS runes onto number plates where they're not supplied as an option. I notice that Dragon have gone so far as to supply the runes in their transfer sheets cut in half, I think it will be easier to hand paint them than try & line those up!
If the EU doesn't like it, that makes it positively mandatory in my book! Bring back pounds, shillings & pence!
What makes Prince Harry's gaffe more piquant is the fact that some of his relatives (eg the Duke of Windsor) found Hitler quite appealing. If he was truly ignorant of the likely effect of his choice of costume, it speaks volumes about the state of British education.
If the EU really thinks that banning the use of the SS runes & swastikas from plastic kits is going to be effective or is an appropriate step, it similarly speaks volumes for them.
Personally I don't care. I never display my stuff publicly, & I frequently have to paint the SS runes onto number plates where they're not supplied as an option. I notice that Dragon have gone so far as to supply the runes in their transfer sheets cut in half, I think it will be easier to hand paint them than try & line those up!
If the EU doesn't like it, that makes it positively mandatory in my book! Bring back pounds, shillings & pence!
TsunamiBomb
Member Since: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 01:11 PM UTC
Im not sure if you guys are correct, and im not so sure that im correct. But im just going to lay this out flat.
I read an article in the news paper saying that no Models (the actual models that walk up and down the runway for beauty pagents) can wear arm bands related to nazism.
Again, im not sure if im right. im just seeing if any of you guys heard of this.
I read an article in the news paper saying that no Models (the actual models that walk up and down the runway for beauty pagents) can wear arm bands related to nazism.
Again, im not sure if im right. im just seeing if any of you guys heard of this.
Hohenstaufen
Member Since: December 13, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 02:17 PM UTC
Harrison, you may have a point there, but you could understand the confusion, after all both types are made mainly of plastic!!!
SgtDinkyduck
Member Since: April 20, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 02:19 PM UTC
maybe one of our members could enlighten us a little, or but i do remember a flag that still exists that has a circular blue swastika with a crown over it?
here is a link to an interesting site.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/flag-finland.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/&h=217&w=376&sz=3&tbnid=vRcb9ygv-7AJ:&tbnh=68&tbnw=117&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastika%2Bflag%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff
here is a link to an interesting site.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/flag-finland.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/&h=217&w=376&sz=3&tbnid=vRcb9ygv-7AJ:&tbnh=68&tbnw=117&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastika%2Bflag%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff
Plasticbattle
#003
Member Since: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Harrison, you may have a point there, but you could understand the confusion, after all both types are made mainly of plastic!!!
Very very funny ... I had a good laugh at this :-) :-)
I also think its a pile of bo****ks.
Im no Royal family fan (well maybe those from Liverpool) ... in fact I dont agree with the whole monarchy system in any country, but does nobody care that scum newspapers invade the privacy of people only to make a quick buck. I feel this is the biggest crime! At the end of the day .. he´s only a young lad, and in my books the most normal of the whole lot. Im actually more annoyed with the
that photographed the private party. Why should the whole of the world need to know or care what somebody does behind closed doors. I dont buy these newspapers anymore ... Im not interested in other peoples lives .. Ive got one of my own.If there was a case that this passed (unlikely I think) who will call the next ban .. and where will it stop?
Savage
Member Since: June 04, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 01:07 AM UTC
Plasticbattle, I agree with you.
No belittling anyone or cause; Prince Harry is, at present, a young man and we all did (or will do) some really stupid things in our youth (anyone remember Prince Andrew’s antics?).
I was surprised that the anti-smoking campaign did not jump on the wagon, as in the photo he is also seen holding a cigarette.
Instead of banning the swastika, rather enlighten people to its significance, as a religious and historical (including national) symbol, this includes the nazi connection.
For example: The Finnish Air Force’s first emblem, the ‘blue swastika’, a symbol that signifies good fortune. Adopted to honour Count von Rosen, who presented the Finnish Army with its first or second (not sure) aircraft, a Thulin Parasol in 1918!
My history teacher in high school; first taught us of the swastika’s use as a religious and good fortune symbol, before introducing us to the nazi use of this symbol and why they used (or is it misused) it!
No belittling anyone or cause; Prince Harry is, at present, a young man and we all did (or will do) some really stupid things in our youth (anyone remember Prince Andrew’s antics?).
I was surprised that the anti-smoking campaign did not jump on the wagon, as in the photo he is also seen holding a cigarette.
Instead of banning the swastika, rather enlighten people to its significance, as a religious and historical (including national) symbol, this includes the nazi connection.
For example: The Finnish Air Force’s first emblem, the ‘blue swastika’, a symbol that signifies good fortune. Adopted to honour Count von Rosen, who presented the Finnish Army with its first or second (not sure) aircraft, a Thulin Parasol in 1918!
My history teacher in high school; first taught us of the swastika’s use as a religious and good fortune symbol, before introducing us to the nazi use of this symbol and why they used (or is it misused) it!
Drader
Member Since: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 01:29 AM UTC
mark197205
Member Since: November 10, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 02:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, I have refrained from posting on this one, but I can't take it any longer! I think they all (the EU) need to pull the cob out and lighten up a bit! I mean for crying out loud, he didn't go as Hitler!! It also has been blown way out of proportion because he is a royal. It is not like he just wore it as a regular outfit for the day. It was a freakin' costume party for Petes' sake!! I am not entirely sure how things work over there, but judging by the restrictions on firearms, this doesn't surprise me. I guess people would probably make a big stink here too if some goverment figures' kid wore a costume of Osama to a party. But to propose a ban on, say, muslim headwear because of it, would be about the same as what the EU has proposed. Ridiculous!
With regards to your comment about banning muslim headwear, this ban IS in place in France within the school system already. As you said ridiculous to the extreme.
tango20
Member Since: August 01, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:44 AM UTC
I agree with Frank, the lad made a mistake as do we all its the gutter press that gets this whole thing going,its like with his mother bloody hell the women could not fart with out it being in the press.
The press made a whole load of money when the women was alive and made a s--t load of money when she died they should leave him alone.
There are more important issues going on in this world than a young guy making a bloody mistake.
Cheers Chris
The press made a whole load of money when the women was alive and made a s--t load of money when she died they should leave him alone.
There are more important issues going on in this world than a young guy making a bloody mistake.
Cheers Chris
cheyenne
Member Since: January 05, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 01:42 PM UTC
I really did not want to get into this but here goes, aside from the symbol being right or wrong, offencive or artistic expression, don't those crusaders of right and wrong realise that by obsessing against a symbol of fanaticisim [ as used by WW2 Germany ] they themselves become fanatics. In America we have fanatics that will kill people who are against abortion, and people who are for abortion wwhhat the answer to taking or saving an unborn life is to kill other people??? because of thier opinion!!! I want my own island on Mars.
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 02:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I want my own island on Mars.
Ahh yes now that would be nice, I have thought for many years about living anywhere but here...
I get welll and trully fed up with both sides, as in the end it doesn't really matter, either side thinks they are right and will argue till death for it...
I could not care less for politics if I tried. In the end politicians are in it for themselfs. No argument.
W'll just have to make the best of it whilst where here, and one thing I have so far liked about the UK is that you can speak your mind. But even that seems now to become more of a problem. Nothing to do with our president, ooops prime minister, I hope.... next stop ID cards. I don't mind ID cards, in the end we already have many items that carry/proof our ID, such as driving licences, it's just tat they ( politicians) don't see or use it as a means of ID, but to get more money out of use. Like I said, we already have means of ID'ing ourselfs. Why force us to buy another one.
Sorry, I seem to have dragged this of along a different line again. I must say that I'm surprised that this tread is still going.....and under gemeral modeling aswel..
:-) 
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