So what has the British Prince Harry to do with modelling and this migthy fine site ? - quite a lot infact.

After his last performance in "bad taste" the European parliament is considering a German proposal to ban all nazi symbols - like the swastica, ss-runes etc...

So what does that mean for the european modelling society - well, for a start you will no longer be able to buy models including those symbols, like a swastica for the tailfin on a airplane - or figures with ss-runes on the collar, or ss-licenseplates...,

But, most likely, it will allso be illigal to exibit items with those symbols on them - so going to a modelshow with one of your old airplanes will be illigal ....

And, if your homepage is located in europe, no more models with those symbols.

Remember, I do in no way sympatice with those symbols and what they stand for, but i kinda hate not being able to model things like they were - and instead having to censor my models thereby spoiling the historical accurasy.

Very few manufacturers (if any) will sell an aircraft kit with swastikas on it. Therefore the AM companies produce them...

As far as the European Parliament is concerned? ..Jim

I myself have no liking for the symbols of Nazism but in the context of building models that are historicaly accurate I use them.

to me the swastica means absolutly nothing, and as such it becomes meaningless except in its historical context.

I was once asked why there was a holocost musuem since it was over and done with... I find the answer will fit this topic as well..

"so we will not forget, because when we do it could happen again."

Scratching the old chrome dome wondering what Prince Harry did.?????? A little embarrassing tidbit the Yankee press missed???

The historical context of the swastika goes a long way back into history, and it is an absurd over-reaction to ban it in the light of its mis-use by one of the nasty political extremes which littered the 20th century. And one which I in no way agree with.

For instance the council offices in Chelmsford (built pre-WW1) has a frieze of swastikas on one wall - are these going to get covered up?

Display of swastikas on a figure at the Nuremburg toy show by a Polish model company led to them getting prosecuted last year (I think it was Mirage). So if anyone models a late Roman infantryman, who also used swastikas, are they next?

Once again a knee-jerk reaction from politicians who believe that doing something when it's in the media is the same as doing something useful. Will this apply to the media as well, or are we going to be subject to yet more dramas about the Nazis? Like the Hitler in love one on ITV recently. Wouldn't miss them.

Simply put, it was a rather poor choice for a costume party.

Link to BBC News story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4170083.stm

Paul

the following message may or may not agree with you, but it's my opinion and I stick with it


Here we go again, one person does something stupid/ abhorend and all the rightous dogooders start screaming " ban, ban, ban".
First of all, banning something does not make it go away.......
Second, denial does not change history, nor does it prevent repeating history...
Third, what will we ban next, spain and religion?? My family remembers the inquesition very well....
Fourth, In case the left wing do gooders missed it, there is something else that they might want to ban.. the hammer and sickel, or the red flag. If I remember correctly Stalin was a wee bit better at his choosen proffesion than Hitler......

By the way, how are the bleeding harts going to explain to other religions (Hinduism if I'm correct) that some of their sacred symbols, the use and origin of which predate the 'thousend year reich' by a few thousend years, are now banned and use will be a criminal offence.

Of course the blatant display of nazi or SS regalia in public, as a show of support or association can not be condonned, but blanket banning of all display, regardless of context, is shortshighted and in the longterm probably even counterproductive.

As you may have gathered I have a growing dislike for the PC brigade who seem to think that they can make my choices for me and who seem to find it important that they dictate history and the future to me...... I am a grown up individual, and can and will take resposibility for my own actions. I don't need some wet blanket to do that for me...

If you are still here, thanks for listening.
Glad to get that of my chest.





Hear, hear


Cheers
Henk

Not being fully versed in the rules in Europe would such a ban be only for the crooked cross symbol thing? What other type symbols may be affected? Are they talking about eliminating all traces of German WW2 symbols including the black and white "+" ?

He went to a costume party fully dressed in a Nazi uniform complete with the armband.

It is my understanding that the swastika is already banned in Germany. My feelings on this are mixed, however the point of historical modeling is not the same without the correct markings. My Point, I have been to several hunderd (Just ask the wife...who got dragged to all of them!) shows in Europe. I loved them and the different way the shows were held as compaired to us. But seeing the planes and other models with yellow post it notes covering them up is stupid! Most people will remove the post it so you can get a picture, but when the POLICE come to inspect the show, and I have seen this, things are getting out of hand! And covering this under the rug for the sake of PC just gets the soap box going! So I will stop and say that ALL the europians must ban together and write your reps in the EU and tell them it is dumb to do this for the sake of PC. I wish you all luck.

Henk your correct the Hindu's do use this symbol I seen quite a few buildings with it on the walls of buildings during my travels there last month......be quite ironic if the Hindu's got done for using it in europe dont you think?
As for the EU well thev'e got to find more ways to micro meddle in people's lifes and after the fiasco of straight bananna's and weighing in metric those lazy overpaid wasters have to try and justofy staying on the gravy boat. maybe it's about time they done something useful like act as fountations for an island or investigating the corruption and money wastage that goes on in the EU parliment but thats sound like hard work so they'll find some thing that's trival to do.
On another note recently a poll showed that many British teenagers had very little understanding of WW2 how can we expect them to learn if we cover up the truth?. What next ban RAF roundals because they fire bombed Hamburg/Dresden ect because in some quarters they call bomber Harris a war criminal
were does it all stop!

Thanks.....
Good to see that stupidity is not
just a gift of old age, and common man.

Hi You know, quite seriously, I truely wonder about those who yell the loudest about bans on such things as this, and just what their TRUE motives may be underneath all their hype and claptrap. These types of people are the ones who need to be kept and eye on by the masses, as they are far more likely to reinstate such horific regimes, as history has well shown to be the case.

Take care, Sgirty

well poor harry. made a mistake.
he picked a coustome.
that he should not have.
and when the media saw this.
they posted all over the world.
there is a lot more news going on in the world.
then runing storys about harry wearing a nazi uniform.
iam opion is is that they should have not made a big
deal out of this, we all did dumb things when we where kids. so just leave it be.
and far as far them baning nazi stuff thats dumb.
its a part of history.

Well, thankfully, it is just a proposal yet, and politicians make all sorts of proposals to get publicity. I doubt it will be passed as a law all over Europe.

Speaking of symbols, I visited the old Carlsberg brewery in Copenhagen recently, and a lot of places swastikas decorate the buildings, which are about 130 years old. At that time, it was used as a symbol of the sun.

So I doubt it will be banned, especially in the liberal Scandinavian countries.

the swastika was and still is a good luck symbol
the scouts sed it befor ww2 and as previously said eastern religions use(d) the swastika on temples
if someone adopts the 4 leaf clover(as already has[has it ?]) for a party sighn then starts a new war i suppose the 4 leaf clover will be banned as well
i think the princes costume has nothing to do with all these arguments look at all these shows and films e.g band of brothers they use the uniforms . and to top it off amatur reinactors use the uniforms, for the enjoyment of the public .
people dont watch a reinactment and throw rocks at the guys dressed up as ww2 germans , nor do they go to the press and treat it as a worldwide scandal .
i know hes a royal but banning the swastika
bo****ks


thankyou

james cann

15

The problem is contest!

If you look at a model in a model exhibition or contest, could you consider it accurate if the swastika is missing?

The fact that I put swastikas on my models, in a manner to make them accurate, doesn't mean that I agree with their policy or with their acts.

It's a question of making an accurate scale model and I am not going to make a blockade with my model submarines!

Person's who fail to see that, are so blind as the one's that they blame!!


Skipper

Well, I have refrained from posting on this one, but I can't take it any longer! I think they all (the EU) need to pull the cob out and lighten up a bit! I mean for crying out loud, he didn't go as Hitler!! It also has been blown way out of proportion because he is a royal. It is not like he just wore it as a regular outfit for the day. It was a freakin' costume party for Petes' sake!! I am not entirely sure how things work over there, but judging by the restrictions on firearms, this doesn't surprise me. I guess people would probably make a big stink here too if some goverment figures' kid wore a costume of Osama to a party. But to propose a ban on, say, muslim headwear because of it, would be about the same as what the EU has proposed. Ridiculous!

I usually stay out of threads like this one, but what the heck. Here is my 2 cents.

This is a perfect example of the slippery slope of censorship, and why our 2nd amendment rights are well the 2nd amendment to the Constitution. Our forefathers thought the expression of free speech, reguardless of how offensive, is an imutable and unalienable right! I think the EU needs to maybe pay a little closer attention to what one of its Children have done and maybe its time for the Father to emulate the son?

OK Fire away - I can take it!

If I lived in Europe and was a model maker I would make this argument (if true)....

1. Are all history books with these symbols being banned? Images of people wearing these symbols. Historical film footage of them?

2. Movies like Schindlers List, Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc, etc, etc, etc...are these being prevented from being shown??

3. If an artist created a moving painting with these symbols (even if meant to show the cruelty of the holocaust) would they too be banned?

If all those are YES than it should extend to models as well. After all I think we don't stand up for ourselves as "artists" enough. This is our hobby and for some our "art". Take that away and you might as well chaulk up another victory for the Nazi's.

Jim

Not only that, it wasn't even a particularly authentic one at that - from the photo, it looked like a white short sleeved shirt that had some cheap repro insignia stitched on - the armband was particularly badly made.

It put me in mind of those comic books we used to read as kids, the ones where all the Germans had swastika armbands on in the desert etc.

When I 1st recieved Revell's 1/72 U boat, I didn't know about the bans..so no swastika on the flag was a shock to me.

Justification to ban a symbol that represents racial hatred? Even on models and historical subjects,etc? The Germans murdered millions, committed atrocities, and they weren't bias there, they didn't kill only the Jews.
In all fairness what about the flag of Japan, since their imperialism murdered so many too.
And the Americans when they nuked 2 cities in Japan? And the Russians for invading Afganistan, etc. There's been enthic cleansing in Kosovo, Africa, etc, etc, even in Butan.
Every country that goes to war whether to invade, expel, retaliate, whatever, there will be atrocities, and the killing is all about what flag you represent during that circumstance. We all know that, and it's really stupid about the emphasis on Germany's past, cause just about almost every country have committed one level of prejudice crime or another during war.

This whole political correctness is mad! Prince Harry didn't do anything wrong, it was after all, a Costume Party. The Press is expected to blow things up, stupid thing is that he made himself look more foolish by saying it was a mistake.

Yes they should ban the Swastika but only under the circumstances that it is being used to put forth a bias negative message.
Still, Good luck to them since it is also represented by the hindus,etc.

Well, I'm still gonna put a Swastika on my U boat's flag.

The politicians in Europe cream off millions of pounds from our taxes every year just to line their own pockets, so as far as I'm concerned they should deliver the next contribution by Lancaster (really hope they miss all the other residents of Brussells in the process though).

This is just aother PC knee-jerk reaction to a non-existent problem. I would make the comparison to the draconian UK gun laws - one lunatic goes nuts with a gun that he shouldn't have owned in the first place and the result that a sport that I hold a national gold medal for (small-bore pistol shooting) is banned overnight and gun crime goes through the roof because there are so many extra weapons on the black market.
If this law goes through then the interest in Nazism and all it stood for will be on the increase just because it's banned - it's human nature for the forbidden to become more attractive.

At least if you are going to offend someone, offend them with the proper dress! :-)

Yup you're totally right! The Forbidden Fruit method always screw things up, that's why our government is FINALLY slowly lifting their strict laws on censorship, since they started the lift, unedited /uncensored pirated movies,cds,books,etc started to lessen drastically.
There should be control but too much of a good thing turns bad.

I do hope the interest in Nazism doesn't escalate though, my brother-in-law's a German, and I like the place especially the Alcohol :-)
Only racism I faced over there was not from the Germans but from a non European guy!

To all those idiot politicians I say