Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 08:56 AM UTC
Joe-- thank you for restoring my sanity. I see no one selected the Stirling....any idea why that is not one of the top performers? I don't even think anyone makes a model of it.
DJ
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Washington, United States
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Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 09:13 AM UTC
I would have to say that I'm split between the B-24 and the Lancaster.
The 24 could carry more farther than the 17 IIRC. And the Lancaster was excellent at night bombing and skip bombing I think is the term I'm looking for. For me to include the B-29 I'd like to know how it would fare in the ETO.
Helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission.
England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 09:16 AM UTC
Airfix did/do a 1:72 scale kit of the Stirling and I must admit it's one of the few heavy bomber kits that I've never built.
Pete
Lord EU
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Down with the Euro! Keep the POUND
If you've got it a TRUCK brought it.
Alabama, United States
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Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:45 PM UTC
So Tom T...is that yer final answer?
hehe
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:34 AM UTC
Someone should follow this up with a Forum question on the better WW II bombing method---- Day or Night Bombing. You guys who are better at WWII aviation might want to consider that one.
DJ
DJ Judge
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"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:45 AM UTC
The reason no-one picked the Stirling was because it's design was compromised by some typically bureaucratic lunacy.
First of all the wingspan was restricted to 99' to fit existing hangars - guaranteeing poor flight performance due to shortage of lift. And secondly the bomb bay was constructed with longitudinal cells which fitted the current bombs - but left no room for bigger bombs.
In his novel 'Bomber' Len Deighton mentions that his brother (I think) who was on bombers told him that crews of Halifaxes and Lancasters were glad when Stirlings flew with them as their poor performance meant the Germans hit them first....
And the Soviet air force hit Berlin before the B-24 by a long way.
Archaeology is destruction - providing you do it properly
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 03:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The reason no-one picked the Stirling was because it's design was compromised by some typically bureaucratic lunacy.
First of all the wingspan was restricted to 99' to fit existing hangars - guaranteeing poor flight performance due to shortage of lift. And secondly the bomb bay was constructed with longitudinal cells which fitted the current bombs - but left no room for bigger bombs.
In his novel 'Bomber' Len Deighton mentions that his brother (I think) who was on bombers told him that crews of Halifaxes and Lancasters were glad when Stirlings flew with them as their poor performance meant the Germans hit them first....
And the Soviet air force hit Berlin before the B-24 by a long way.
Dave-- very interesting. Did the British withdraw the Stirling from service? I believe they did for the Wellington and Halifaxs. Not my area of expertise.
thanks
DJ
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 06:41 AM UTC
Tom-- Hate to bust your bubble at Christmas, but "Animal Farm" was written by George Orwell. Orsen Wells is/was the actor who made "Citizen Kane" among many other things...
DJ

:-)
PS-- why is this your last posting to the Forum?
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 07:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Secondly shouldn't that be people who live in trailer parks shouldn't throw stones?
jim, sorry to butt in, but to attach trailer parks to our friend Mr T may be highly insulting to the residents of such places!
and tom, rather than lecture others about re-reading history you should take your own advice.
Britain(including the commonwealth) fought on TWO OR MORE fronts throughout the entire war,
and lastly DJ, i feel that this excellent thread has been ruined already by the ignorant, arrogant and crude remarks posted. can it be locked so those concerned with discussing history and not insulting other nationalilties can continue what they do best!
regards
joe
"The machine gun is a much overrated weapon" Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig,Somme,July 1,1916
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won the lottery of Life" Cecil Rhodes
England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 07:56 AM UTC
Hi guys just a technical question, my dad served in Lanchasters during the war he was a rear gunner till he was wounded then grounded, he always told me about the quad mounting inthe rear turret, now just lateley Ive seen bomber crew on t.v. and other stuff featuring lanc's and they all have a twin rear turret can any one enlighten me on this. a good book to read about Lanc's is Cheshire V.C. really interesting.
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 08:04 AM UTC
John--- what a tremendous amount of fire power those weapons could put out. Did the Brits fly night formations? I am wondering if they employed the same type box formation that the Americans favored.
DJ
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Holdfast
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#056
England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 08:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi guys just a technical question, my dad served in Lanchasters during the war he was a rear gunner till he was wounded then grounded, he always told me about the quad mounting inthe rear turret, now just lateley Ive seen bomber crew on t.v. and other stuff featuring lanc's and they all have a twin rear turret can any one enlighten me on this. a good book to read about Lanc's is Cheshire V.C. really interesting.
The Lancaster featured in the bomber crew thing is a late war, or early post war aircraft equiped with 20mm cannon. This aircraft is privately owend and although it is capeable of flying it does'nt because of cost. But for £150 you can get a taxi ride in her. A work colleage of mine took a seat in the rear turret for this :-) He thinks the Lancaster is the best as well :-)
Quoted Text
Oh by the way, Jim, the "Poles, British, Free French , Czechs ec.and more than a few U.S. volunteers" were generally relegated to the Hurricanes, whilst the Spitfires were reserved for the more "blue-blooded" yachting club type resident local boys in England-re-read your history.
P.....leeeaaase, where do you get this kind of stuff from Tom?
I still think The Lancaster was the best Heavy bomber of WWII
Mal
MAL the MASK
BULLDOG # 6 (President)
BEWARE OF THE FEW
Sappers: First in, last out. (UBIQUE)
It's not the same, better, but not the same.
England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 09:52 AM UTC
[quote] Ive seen bomber crew on t.v. and other stuff featuring lanc's and they all have a twin rear turret can any one enlighten me on this.
The Lancaster featured in the bomber crew thing is a late war, or early post war aircraft equiped with 20mm cannon. This aircraft is privately owend and although it is capeable of flying it does'nt because of cost. But for £150 you can get a taxi ride in her. A work colleage of mine took a seat in the rear turret for this :-) He thinks the Lancaster is the best as well :-)
[quote]
Mal - I think that the Lanc featured in 'Bomber Crew' is the last flying example in the UK, as they will be flying it next week! It belongs to the RAFs Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. The rear turret is the 'Rose' turret and is armed with two .50 Brownings - the 20mm were introduced on the Lincoln.
Bulldog#3
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Growing old disgracefully!
Alabama, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:15 AM UTC
Man....what a great thread....THIS is what this community is all about. I know in my neighborhood, not all the people get along all of the time, but we're still neighbors. Snappy comebacks are ok, as are enlightening remarks to inform each other...so keep it up boys...moderator please don't lock this one down.
Now, back on subject: I'm still going with the Liberator as my favorite, for the aforementioned reasons. But I must say after reading and researching on my own.... the Lancaster is right up there TIED for first place. Because allies on many fronts fought this war, flying many different crafts (it’s like an earlier post, by Jimbrae I think, trying to compare apples to oranges) you may have a favorite, but a clear winner in this battle is gonna be hard pressed to come up with.
So...cheerio...pip pip....talley ho...and yawlcomebacnowyahere?
and Tom, don't you worry about them there Brits...."they think the ruled the world"....oh wait....THEY DID....dangit
Colorado, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:32 AM UTC
Howdy all,
Been wanting to add my tupence worth to this thread for awhile now. Just love the bombers and the courageous crews that served on them. But I've been waiting for a 'lull' in the heat around here before I do........apparently that bus ain't a comin'.
Sorry to say it but, this is the closest to compromising the character of this site I've come across in quite awhile.........
Think I'll save my comments for another time.
Tread.
Didn't want to leave without saying.....Superb input from the ranks tho!
You're a better man than me, Gunga Din!
Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 01:42 PM UTC
Hoping to help put this thread back on track... I vote for the B-29 . It carried more, higher, and farther than any other plane. I think it is a shame it didn't participate in the ETO. Think of all the lives it would have saved. It was capable of both night and day operations, and if it could be modified to carry those two huge atomic eapons I'm more than sure it could have carried those dig dam buster bombs the Lanc's used.
I do have to take exception to the term Trailer park living. Just because we are southern doesn't mean we live in a trailer park. I have two college degrees and live in a 3 bedroom house in a nice neighborhood. I am pround of my southern heritage. I have been to Europe....never been in Spain would love to visit. I have been to England and enjoyed it immensely. So come visit my region before you make ugly comments again please. Please do not cast disparaging remarks about my region. My best friend lives in a trailer park outside of Mobile Alabama and he is one of the most polite, kindest, generous, and courteous people you would ever want to know.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
VMI "76
Order of the Red Nose Plug
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 01:49 PM UTC
Steve-- thanks for the info. Interesting point you raise on the Dam Buster operations. There is a black and white film must have been made in the 50's on the squadron. Well done for the time. I think Richard Todd starred in it.
DJ
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 02:01 PM UTC
DJ.. sometimes I think only you and I have any respect for what this forum is about. We are here to learn I understand regional / national pride and welcome the additional info that I gain about British military equipment. But am dumbfounded when it gets vicious. I guess being an officer in the military has taught you and I how to be tolerant and to seek to expand our knowledge rather than thump our chests. It scares me that an offer to express one's opinion about an old bomber or as my friend Dave Demears (Grumpy old man) found out honoring the memory of Pearl Harbor can turn into national spitting contests
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
VMI "76
Order of the Red Nose Plug
Blue Volute Bumper Spring Award
Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 06:23 PM UTC
Is it safe for me to raise my head,no one going to shoot it off?good.My vote goes to the Lancaster.It was close the B-24 was my other choice.And the reason i chose the Lancaster was before my dad went into the army he worked at Rolls Royce in Hillington,Glasgow.Where the merlin production was earmarked for Lancasters.I'm pretty sure sure i read it in Glasgow at war.But i'll check in the morning. But on a personal note i'd like to add .Can we all just get along? (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-)
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:45 PM UTC
We all do get along. I am still a big fan of a B-26 Marauder. It is one fine looking aircraft. I have the 1/48 Monogram which I am going to do someday in silver with D-Day Invasion stripes. Saw an example in FSM. I guess this discussion surprises me in that contributors have correctly centered around the big bombers...the medium systems need some attention. Is Mosquito a bomber or fighter? I know the often forgotten P-61 Black Widow is considered an able figter and the Mosquito certainly pre-dates it. If you want to get off topic someone post some shots of the B-26, P-61 and Mosquito.
thanks
DJ
DJ Judge
COL (R), USA
"Tanker Boots do not a Tanker Make."
Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 04:00 AM UTC
"...
someone post some shots of the B-26, P-61 and Mosquito...."
{....poking my head up.....}
Here's a shot of a 'Mossie' in USAF markings with Invasion stripes......
Tread.
You're a better man than me, Gunga Din!
Connecticut, United States
Member Since: October 22, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 04:54 AM UTC
If you want to talk about mediums then my two picks would be the B-25 and the Wellington.I really can't pick between them. (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-)
Alabama, United States
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Posted: Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 06:11 AM UTC
there ya go....
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 06:50 AM UTC
First of all, to clarify the difference (which seems a bit clouded) between the 'Bouncing Bombs' and the ten-ton 'Tallboys'.
The first were designed by Barnes Wallis (who also designed the Wellington) they were designed to skip over netting which the Germans had placed to protect the dams. Legend has it, that he got the idea while watching his children skimming stones on a lake. Originally they were to have been deployed from Mosquitos, but they were found to contain an insuffient quantity of explosive - hence the switch to Lancasters
The second type were conventional (but very large bombs) which were the progenitors of the 'Bunker-Buster' weapons used in Iraq. Their primary mission was to penetrate the thick concrete of the U-Boat pens at Brest.
Both these weapons required considerable modifications to the carrying aircraft. They weren't deployed on the B29 as there was little need for the 'Tallboy' in the Pacific theater...Jim

Finally, can I clarify my 'Trailer' comment - under no circumstances was it intended as a slur against the South or its people under any circumstances. Rather it was against the previously named individual. I unreservedly apologise for causing any offence...