What do you think about that :
Might we take some "liberties whith the reality" when building a model ????
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Great question !
piwi
Member Since: March 15, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 10:41 PM UTC
crossbow
Member Since: April 11, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:20 PM UTC
Bonjour Pierre,
Hmm, can you give an example of "liberties"???
Like a bridge laying jeep.... or a flying tank... (has been tried I believe)....
Kris
Hmm, can you give an example of "liberties"???
Like a bridge laying jeep.... or a flying tank... (has been tried I believe)....
Kris
husky1943
Member Since: March 17, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:24 PM UTC
Piwi,
Yes, you can. But I am one of the very few who do not care about absolute accuracy. Modelling is for fun, so why not?
crossbow,
You talking about the tank that they attached rockets to? I have read about that one. The book said that all it ever did was flip over, but it was originally designed to fly over tank traps.
Ciao for now
Rob
Yes, you can. But I am one of the very few who do not care about absolute accuracy. Modelling is for fun, so why not?
crossbow,
You talking about the tank that they attached rockets to? I have read about that one. The book said that all it ever did was flip over, but it was originally designed to fly over tank traps.
Ciao for now
Rob
crossbow
Member Since: April 11, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
crossbow,
You talking about the tank that they attached rockets to? I have read about that one. The book said that all it ever did was flip over, but it was originally designed to fly over tank traps.
Nope, I once read an article about a Christies design type tank that was fitted with wings, a prop and tail fins.
I can't remember if was the Russians or the US of A that did the tests
Kris
Sealhead
Member Since: May 18, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:20 AM UTC
I respect those who model with historian-grade expertise and reasearch. I model for fun. Do what YOU want.
Sealhead
Sealhead
piwi
Member Since: March 15, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:33 AM UTC
Bye "liberties" I mean " May I use Bradley M9 tracks on a Bradley M35" or exaust pipe of a Tiger Ausf P on a Tiger Ausf R " e.g ?
Should all details be accurate ?
My opinion is that modeling should be a hobby and a pleasure.
Of course you should try to keep a lillte bit likelihood but I found sometimes critics are hard just because on your T34 you've got a wheel with 8 holes rather 9 !!!!
Or may be a level is missing : "historical models "....
Should all details be accurate ?
My opinion is that modeling should be a hobby and a pleasure.
Of course you should try to keep a lillte bit likelihood but I found sometimes critics are hard just because on your T34 you've got a wheel with 8 holes rather 9 !!!!
Or may be a level is missing : "historical models "....
husky1943
Member Since: March 17, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 02:12 AM UTC
Nope, I once read an article about a Christies design type tank that was fitted with wings, a prop and tail fins.
I can't remember if was the Russians or the US of A that did the tests
Kris,
You are talking about the M-1932 tank. It was a Christie design that he sold to the Russians. They went nowhere with it. It looked just as you described it and it was designed to jump over 20ft obstacles with use of a ramp. Just plain weird! I have a picture if you want it.
Ciao for now
Rob
I can't remember if was the Russians or the US of A that did the tests
Kris,
You are talking about the M-1932 tank. It was a Christie design that he sold to the Russians. They went nowhere with it. It looked just as you described it and it was designed to jump over 20ft obstacles with use of a ramp. Just plain weird! I have a picture if you want it.
Ciao for now
Rob
csch
Member Since: December 27, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 02:49 AM UTC
In my opinion, no. I also model for fun but I belive that the if finished model is the more similar to the real thing, better. This is only my point of view and the way I feel about this, but everyone could enjoy this hobby the way he wants.
DRAGONSLAIN
Member Since: February 22, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 03:15 AM UTC
yes, please go ahead and do it. There are two ways you can go, either accuracy or fun(sometimes) many people can get both, but I can't, so sometimes I sort fo leave accuracy behind and go for just the fun!!
have fun.
Quoted Text
What I must do is all that concerns me, not what the people think.....For nonconformity the world whips you with its displeasure......The by-standers look askance on him..........And therefore a man must know how to estimate a sour face......but the sour faces of the multitude, like their sweet faces, have no deep cause, but are put on and off
have fun.
LogansDad
Member Since: March 30, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 03:17 AM UTC
I go both ways on this one. If I feel like an OOB build just to keep my creative juices from congealing, I'll knock it out for pleasure. I built a 737-300 and decorated it as Southwest's 'Shamu' for my office, didn't really bother me that the real thing is a -500...
However I'm in the process of superdetailing a Dragon F-16, and had to scratch the entire cockpit as the plastic lump it came with made my teeth hurt. A dio I have in the planning stages is not going to get a drop of glue until I have several reams worth of reference info- but that doesn't mean it will come close to something done to, say, Gunnie's standards. If I'm building for a specific recognized event I'll go all out to overcorrect. If I'm knocking together an out-of-scale F-18 with my 3-year old, heck, it's just fun!
p.s.-RobL(husky) I would love to see that flying tank pic. were you aware that the brits also had in the planning stages a flying Valentine "Rotatank"? they got as far as flight testing a Willys MB with the proposed rotorhead (The Hafner "Rotabuggy") but canceled the program as gliders could accomplish the air assault mission. Never seen a pic or even drawing of the tank, but wouldn't THAT be a fun 'What-If'...
However I'm in the process of superdetailing a Dragon F-16, and had to scratch the entire cockpit as the plastic lump it came with made my teeth hurt. A dio I have in the planning stages is not going to get a drop of glue until I have several reams worth of reference info- but that doesn't mean it will come close to something done to, say, Gunnie's standards. If I'm building for a specific recognized event I'll go all out to overcorrect. If I'm knocking together an out-of-scale F-18 with my 3-year old, heck, it's just fun!
p.s.-RobL(husky) I would love to see that flying tank pic. were you aware that the brits also had in the planning stages a flying Valentine "Rotatank"? they got as far as flight testing a Willys MB with the proposed rotorhead (The Hafner "Rotabuggy") but canceled the program as gliders could accomplish the air assault mission. Never seen a pic or even drawing of the tank, but wouldn't THAT be a fun 'What-If'...
husky1943
Member Since: March 17, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 03:53 AM UTC
Logansdad,
When my wife can show me how to use the
scanner again, I'll be more than happy to send you the picture.
Ciao for now
Rob
When my wife can show me how to use the
scanner again, I'll be more than happy to send you the picture.Ciao for now
Rob
thebear
Member Since: November 15, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 04:36 AM UTC
I'm up in the air on this one... No I would not use parts from another tank to make something different if it wasn,t tried out for real... And I have enough reference books to know that the 12SS did not have Tiger tanks in their division... It will not stop me from building a PanzerIV of the 12SS because I don't have a picture of all 4 sides ..I will invent the part of the camo scheme that i don't see... Same goes for a Kingtiger ..I know enough about them to know who had them and what camo schemes were used ...will I do every camo line perfectly ? No...
Will I build an M4A3 on the beaches of Normandy ...No....
Will I get every detail on the M4A1 in Normandy right ..probably not ...
But all this depends on why we build ...I do go to shows and do win a prize or two...but all in all they are for me ...and yours should be for you... If you put pictures up ...Make sure you say that you know you changed the exhaust and you like just as it is ..Otherwise you will have people question your accuracy.. Hey that is why we have forums to help each other out and to point out where things can be made better...
Have fun !!! That is the most important thing ..Do what makes you happy.
Rick
Will I build an M4A3 on the beaches of Normandy ...No....
Will I get every detail on the M4A1 in Normandy right ..probably not ...
But all this depends on why we build ...I do go to shows and do win a prize or two...but all in all they are for me ...and yours should be for you... If you put pictures up ...Make sure you say that you know you changed the exhaust and you like just as it is ..Otherwise you will have people question your accuracy.. Hey that is why we have forums to help each other out and to point out where things can be made better...
Have fun !!! That is the most important thing ..Do what makes you happy.
Rick
DaveCox
Member Since: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 05:13 AM UTC
Bit of both here - I'll scratchbuild a vehicle to the best of my ability using photos not plans, so the model will be a few millimetres out and will lack a few details; on the other hand I'd never build a pink Panther!
19k
Member Since: April 03, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 06:12 AM UTC
I like to try to build a model that may not be an exact replica of a prototype, but at least would be a plausible example of it. If I add any personal touches to it, such as a name, gear, etc I just go with what seems right. We could get into accuracy issues here about SOP for stowage, but the small items are not so critical. 
Wolf-Leader
Member Since: June 06, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 06:36 AM UTC
The way I see it is, if you don't build it as a good representation of the actual vehical then I believe you are disgracing those who have served on it. That is what makes me happy, true accuracy. 
scoccia
Member Since: September 02, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 09:02 AM UTC
That's really a good question!!! Being an AFV guy and having spent many years on the 1:1 models I personally I try to stick to reality and historical accuracy. I'm not against "liberties" but if the result is not ending in something completely unaccurate.
Recently at a model exibition I saw a dio of an Italian L6/40 light tank used as a kind of breakfast table by some Foreign Legion troops in NA. The idea was great, the building was perfect, the painting was absolutely stunning, the whole thing was worth over 150 USD of kits and i think it took quite a lot of time and effort to put it together and to paint it.
- the only one place where that tank had a chance to be met by the French was in Tunisia where no L6/40 arrived
- it was covered in scratches and paint chippings with an underlying coat of grigioverde mimetico when they were paintend in sand at the factory
- the engine compartment was painted in white instead of the dark orange of the anti-rust paint
- the insignia were missing
- the plate number were wrong for that theatre
So what do you think?
Ciao
Recently at a model exibition I saw a dio of an Italian L6/40 light tank used as a kind of breakfast table by some Foreign Legion troops in NA. The idea was great, the building was perfect, the painting was absolutely stunning, the whole thing was worth over 150 USD of kits and i think it took quite a lot of time and effort to put it together and to paint it.
- the only one place where that tank had a chance to be met by the French was in Tunisia where no L6/40 arrived
- it was covered in scratches and paint chippings with an underlying coat of grigioverde mimetico when they were paintend in sand at the factory
- the engine compartment was painted in white instead of the dark orange of the anti-rust paint
- the insignia were missing
- the plate number were wrong for that theatre
So what do you think?
Ciao
capnjock
Member Since: May 19, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 09:33 AM UTC
If building for a contest, I try for as accurate as I can make it using the data I have on hand. I do not have enough money to buy all the possible information about a specific subject so I build to what I can afford. I also build for fun. I am in the process of building some Aurora WW1 planes. These are intended for pleasure only. Of course I will do the best my skills allow, but, these will not be contest winners for sure.
As has been said, BUILD FOR FUN!!!! Whether for contest or display shelf.
capnjock
As has been said, BUILD FOR FUN!!!! Whether for contest or display shelf.
capnjock
woltersk
Member Since: May 27, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 09:53 AM UTC
What about the 'liberties' used in painting and weathering techniques? By this I mean the 'unrealistic' finishes so popular these days: drybrushing, washing, highlighted panel lines, etc.
(There was a recent thread that dealt with just this.)
So, is it okay to make a model look good by robbing accuracy?
I have been around real F-16s and when viewed from a distance where they appear 1/72, or 1/32 scale for that matter, it is difficult to see the panel lines.
And when viewing some F-16 kits with 'enhanced' panel lines the lines may look good, but would be 4 inches wide in 1/1 scale!
Similar thing with armor. During a long conflict when there is little time or resources to paint, the raised portions and items on a tank may get discolored by the sun and wear (like an old firehydrant), but I have not seen real modern vehicles that have reached that point.
I confess--I do use these techniques for visual effect, strictly for presentation and overall look.
Opinions?
(There was a recent thread that dealt with just this.)
So, is it okay to make a model look good by robbing accuracy?
I have been around real F-16s and when viewed from a distance where they appear 1/72, or 1/32 scale for that matter, it is difficult to see the panel lines.
And when viewing some F-16 kits with 'enhanced' panel lines the lines may look good, but would be 4 inches wide in 1/1 scale!
Similar thing with armor. During a long conflict when there is little time or resources to paint, the raised portions and items on a tank may get discolored by the sun and wear (like an old firehydrant), but I have not seen real modern vehicles that have reached that point.
I confess--I do use these techniques for visual effect, strictly for presentation and overall look.
Opinions?
husky1943
Member Since: March 17, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 09:58 AM UTC
Ciao everyone,
So, I guess we have two trains of thought. Some of you are hard-core believers in meticulous detail and some are doing this for fun and within budget. I can remember when Tamiya figures (from the 70's) were top of the line and the best that could be had. Now, that I have looked at them, as compared to DML or new Tamiya, they are a joke. I have to be honest, though. When I hear someone comment on a shade of paint, I believe that is going overboard. But, so would a pink panther. But, since I like figures, I believe that you have to exagerate a bit, to make them look alive and real. Just my two cents.
Ciao for now
Rob
So, I guess we have two trains of thought. Some of you are hard-core believers in meticulous detail and some are doing this for fun and within budget. I can remember when Tamiya figures (from the 70's) were top of the line and the best that could be had. Now, that I have looked at them, as compared to DML or new Tamiya, they are a joke. I have to be honest, though. When I hear someone comment on a shade of paint, I believe that is going overboard. But, so would a pink panther. But, since I like figures, I believe that you have to exagerate a bit, to make them look alive and real. Just my two cents.
Ciao for now
Rob
kereru
Member Since: January 14, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:25 AM UTC
For me it depends on what u'r building. my examples are an M113 acav where i'm trying to get the vehicle built correctly (within the limits of my modeling skill) but will use some liberty with the markings, esp the graffiti. on the other hand i have some US marines that will be getting black/grey camo which is taking considerable liberty
John
Ps liberties or artistic license?
John
Ps liberties or artistic license?
sniperwolf
Member Since: March 28, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What about the 'liberties' used in painting and weathering techniques? By this I mean the 'unrealistic' finishes so popular these days: drybrushing, washing, highlighted panel lines, etc.
(There was a recent thread that dealt with just this.)
So, is it okay to make a model look good by robbing accuracy?
I have been around real F-16s and when viewed from a distance where they appear 1/72, or 1/32 scale for that matter, it is difficult to see the panel lines.
And when viewing some F-16 kits with 'enhanced' panel lines the lines may look good, but would be 4 inches wide in 1/1 scale!
Similar thing with armor. During a long conflict when there is little time or resources to paint, the raised portions and items on a tank may get discolored by the sun and wear (like an old firehydrant), but I have not seen real modern vehicles that have reached that point.
I confess--I do use these techniques for visual effect, strictly for presentation and overall look.
Opinions?
I feel that although sometimes the drybrushing and highlighting are sometimes overdone, it only helps to make it appear more realistic. You have to remember, we cannot perfectly create the finishes or outside conditions we want, so we must simulate them. We work with plastic, not metal, and we are indoors, not outside
GROO
Member Since: March 23, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 05:26 AM UTC
That is personal, you can do straight from the box and be inacurate, I do straight from the box when I feel like painting quickly...... You can make changes to match a photo or a movie...... or even your imagination....... do as you please, be happy during and after, sometimes to do the accurate thing you need money and time... I have little of both.!!!
Cheers....
Cheers....
thebear
Member Since: November 15, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 06:08 AM UTC
Scoccia you make a good point ,but when judging we have to be careful ...You know that the dio is not plausible but how many others know that ? What about the dio beside it that shows a M60 in Vietnam ...do you know if that division was in that region of Vietnam ?? You have to try and forget authenticity sometimes just to make it even for everyone.... I have been faced with this many times while judging and you have to cringe and judge it for construction ..how well it tell a story and all the rest... Well don't put an M60 in a WWII dio..it has to be possible .
I think I'll quit judging ...drives me nuts sometimes (more than usual) :-)
Rick
I think I'll quit judging ...drives me nuts sometimes (more than usual) :-)
Rick
GSPatton
Member Since: September 04, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 09:17 AM UTC
The idea of "taking Liberties" is very interesting. Too many modelers think the more junk the better. (However, after seeing the US Army/USMC in Iraq - I have come to believe that soon I will see photographic evidence of the kitchen sink on an M1 or Bradley)
Modelers adding tons of stowage is fine, but having a tank in a combat situation with live ammo on the deck is unreal. Tankers are not going to leave ordinance with the potential of doing them great bodily harm on the deck, when it should be stored.
I like models that take on a fair representation of the real thing. I am not a rivet counter, nor do I spent an extra hundred on aftermarket stuff. Finally, I try to repesent an AFV that looks like it has seen some action, not one shot to pieces with numerous bent metal parts and hits.
Some liberties yes - too many - no way.
Modelers adding tons of stowage is fine, but having a tank in a combat situation with live ammo on the deck is unreal. Tankers are not going to leave ordinance with the potential of doing them great bodily harm on the deck, when it should be stored.
I like models that take on a fair representation of the real thing. I am not a rivet counter, nor do I spent an extra hundred on aftermarket stuff. Finally, I try to repesent an AFV that looks like it has seen some action, not one shot to pieces with numerous bent metal parts and hits.
Some liberties yes - too many - no way.
SS-74
Member Since: May 13, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 02:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm up in the air on this one... No I would not use parts from another tank to make something different if it wasn,t tried out for real... And I have enough reference books to know that the 12SS did not have Tiger tanks in their division... It will not stop me from building a PanzerIV of the 12SS because I don't have a picture of all 4 sides ..I will invent the part of the camo scheme that i don't see... Same goes for a Kingtiger ..I know enough about them to know who had them and what camo schemes were used ...will I do every camo line perfectly ? No...
Will I build an M4A3 on the beaches of Normandy ...No....
Will I get every detail on the M4A1 in Normandy right ..probably not ...
But all this depends on why we build ...I do go to shows and do win a prize or two...but all in all they are for me ...and yours should be for you... If you put pictures up ...Make sure you say that you know you changed the exhaust and you like just as it is ..Otherwise you will have people question your accuracy.. Hey that is why we have forums to help each other out and to point out where things can be made better...
Have fun !!! That is the most important thing ..Do what makes you happy.
I am with rick on this one.
And one more question, what's the greatness about this question? #:-)
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