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Modeling in General: Advice on...
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Copyright laws
HARV
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:17 AM UTC
Can someone answer this question for me please? I notice that every once in awhile someone will submit a post looking for a scan or photocopy of something such as a magazine article, a set of kit instructions, a page from a modeling book etc... and I would like to help out. However I am not sure about copyright laws on doing this. Is there any law that prevents someone from doing this to help someone out? Or does the copyright law only apply if you stand to gain something from it? Thanks in advance for your help. Harv
Graywolf
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HISTORICUS FORMA
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:28 AM UTC
i dont know the copyright laws about that but I always try to show the origin of the info thinking the ethical part of this. We must announce the owner of the info . I agree you copyrgiht is more important here.wish we can find a good answer
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:38 AM UTC
Copyright laws only apply if you are trying to make money off it. If you offer to sell copyrighted material, you could get into trouble, however, giving a copy of it away is not a problem.
Davinator
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 11:56 AM UTC
I hate to disagree with you HeavyArty... But the only real loophole in copyright law is to make a copy for yourself of something you purchased (or legally own) for the express purpose of backing it up... Not for distribution, which would include giving a copy to a friend... If it were only limited to not making money off of it, Napster would never have had a problem with the music industry. I am a professional photographer, copyright laws are designed to make it possible for me to make a living... Without copyright laws, I would not be able to make a living taking senior pictures for instance... Noone would ever buy more then one copy of each pose that they liked, then take the prints to Wal-Mart and make as many copies as they needed to pass out to their friends and family....

Copyrights do expire however... I believe that it is 75 years for photographs... Not certain on printed material.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 01:50 PM UTC
I stand corrected.
redaye
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 02:30 PM UTC
thanks for posting this thread guys. I usually make resin copies of kit parts like tarps or back packs (you can never get enough of them). I now have a nice stock pile of these parts, just look at my gallery photos. I have been sitting on the fence as to whether I should offer these copies to fellow modelers. I haven't made that offer for the fear that i might get sued or hassled by the copyright police.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:15 PM UTC
Davinator -- Here's where I have to disagree with you. I am in the publishing industry and have a little different take on copyright law than an independent photographer.

I agree that it would be a violation for me to hire you to take senior pictures of my daughter, order a minimal amount of prints, then copy, reprint and distribute those prints. I would be denying you your livelyhood, and -- by copying it -- degrading your work at the same time. Each of your photos -- under copyright law -- is considered a complete and separate work, and is protected as such.

On the other hand, if you were looking for parts of an article or photo from an old magazine or book, I could make a copy of that article and give it to you. It would be considered fair use for reference or educational purposes. It would have to be a one-shot thing, only copying the information necessary for your research and I could not profit from it. I would also have to ensure that proper credit is given to the origin of thr copy -- to ensure my friend doesn't thnk I am the original source of the information. This does not, however, allow me post it on the internet to share with everyone, nor could I reprint it for commercial purposes. If anyone has any questions about this, they should check with their local library or university to see what their take on "fair use" copying is.

As far as bootlegging model parts goes -- I would not suggest selling or even giving away any resin copies of parts made by a commercial manufacturer.
Davinator
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:47 PM UTC
I agree with what you said HollowPoint, you expressed it more clearly then I did....

The important thing for everyone to consider, in my opinion, is this... By asking for or accepting a copy of someones intellectual work, (photo, article, etc) Are you denying the author his living, or are you getting information that is not available to you otherwise.

This is admittedly a bit of a hot button issue with photographers, not so much myself because I am actually a photo journalist and get a check from whatever news service I am shooting for, but for other photogs and many authors it is how they feed their families and pay their bills.
shonen_red
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:34 PM UTC
If your exposing a scan for the public, you should atleast give credit to the creator, like put a footnote or bibliography.
BroAbrams
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Posted: Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 07:52 PM UTC
Just because it's 2:00 AM and I am feeling obnoxious I am going to play devil's advocate here. In reference to Bob's (Hollowpoint) suggestion on not giving away a copy of a part, does this also mean that we should not buy the majority of Trumpeter's kit's? I know this AS-90 I am working on for the Incoming build was a piece for piece copy of Accurate Armour's kit. Of course AA is now extracting their revenge in offering a detail set for it that is simply many pieces from their kit that you can put on the trumpeter kit, and the price they are asking means you will pay about the same for the trumpeter kit and their upgrade as you would just to buy the AA kit, but that is beside the point. What I am asking is where is the line. Every Abrams kit available before last year was a copy of the Tamiya one. But there are plenty of small diferences in the kits that means the different companies had to put some work into them, right? So does that make it okay? Or should we only buy Tamiya and AA, cuz their the only ones who do their own research? And is it then okay to give away a copy of a part on this AS-90 or that Abrams since it was a copy to begin with? And if it's okay to do that, why not make a copy and give it to someone else? What are your opinions on this?

This post is meant to be thought provoking only, it is not meant to be a bash on the modeling industry or start a flame war. No matter what the answer, I am still going to buy whatever kit I think will have the best detail, be most accurate, and have the lowest price. And for the record, there are a lot of trumpeter kits (Leopold) that are completely their own work and are excellent kits. And since I don't even make copies for me, I really am not worried about them. Do you see what my wife has to deal with if she accidently wakes me up at two AM?

Rob
straightedge
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 01:16 AM UTC
I think it would be real hard to prove a copy, if it is a perfect model of the real thing, but what surly will give you away is to copy a flaw. Before like they said on the comparison of the abrams on to how the maufacturers only used to be abe to get photos not to close, and not to accurate.
I went thru the same thing, I wanted to see some of the interiors that was right next to us, and they asked me not to cause of security back then.
Then one day I was delivering some microwave relay test stations that the Airforce used, and the Captain asked me if I wanted to see how they worked, so I said what the heck.
So he took me into this locked room and showed these which looks like computer screens with pictures on them, and he put a tape in, and he said the pilot does the same thing when he wants to do a low altitude bombing mission,oh one of them testing stations can run up to 6 jets at once.
He said the pilot puts the tape in, of the area he wants to bomb, and these pictures were taken from the satilites from above, but with the computer, it makes it look like you are flying at only a hundred feet above the ground, but the pilot has a little TV that shows how everything is going to look before he gets there, and he used a tape of the base, and marked out the building we were in so when the picture came up to it the building was all marked out so you couldn't mistake it for another one. It had a blinking X I believe, or something like that, cause this was better then 10 years ago I think.
I told him this is super neat, like star wars or somthing, then he laughed, he said this is the old stuff, and is to be retired, now mind you the pictures were clear enough to tell a car or truck, and I thought pretty detailed, and I think if I looked long enough I could tell if it was a chevy or ford, but if they are retiring that, so they got to have way better if they are going to retire that, then they must have to where they can read your license plate now.
Scarry Huh

Kerry
kkeefe
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 02:07 AM UTC
To simply put it, and without all the legal mumbo-jumbo...

If you use anything of mine that I have posted on the internet or in print for your own personal gain or profit, without my expressed written consent, I will come after you.

It is much safer to ask first.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To simply put it, and without all the legal mumbo-jumbo...

If you use anything of mine that I have posted on the internet or in print for your own personal gain or profit, without my expressed written consent, I will come after you.

It is much safer to ask first.



Well put, Kevin.

The question that Rob brings up about the major manufacturers copying each others' kits or parts thereof -- we're best to leave that to them. Sometimes these companies make agreements with one another to reproduce things or re-box them. At other times, it seems like they just fly it in the face of the opposition -- remember back in the old days when Academy used to make sprue-for-sprue copies of Tamiya kits and sell them for less than half the originals' price? I'me sure there were Japanese and Korean lawyers meeting about that at some point ...
jrnelson
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 08:09 AM UTC
OK - hehehe, just to chime in here...

What about if I "modify" a kit part to be more accurate or to scale, then cast a copy for me to use. Would it be wrong for me to give an extra casting to a friend? (No money changing hands) The Tamiya sherman exhaust bafflers (is that what they are called) comes to mind. I basically thinned the kit part down, and made some detail additions with extra etch bits from various sets, and cast a resin copy for my own use. Now if I someone were to ask me to cast them a copy - would I be wrong in doing so?

I totally agree with the photo argument though... don't post anything that isn't yours without permission. However, I have come across a few EXCELLENT Jumbo Sherman walk arounds pictures (the one at Camp Ripley Minnesota) and would like to be able to upload the pics into my gallery - for everyone to have a look at. However, I have yet to hear back from the owner of the pics, so they will NOT be shared until I do. I asked for permission to stick his pictures in my "reference image" folder of my gallery - and have yet to get a response. Still, they are his images, so he has the final say.

Later-
Jeff
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 08:25 AM UTC
The copyright issue has been bothering me too. I have seen a few topics that I would really like to post phots from books to help out. Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be legal, therefore I will try to give the information as to where the info can be found and try to describe the item if at all possible.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 11:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What about if I "modify" a kit part to be more accurate or to scale, then cast a copy for me to use. Would it be wrong for me to give an extra casting to a friend? (No money changing hands) The Tamiya sherman exhaust bafflers (is that what they are called) comes to mind. I basically thinned the kit part down, and made some detail additions with extra etch bits from various sets, and cast a resin copy for my own use. Now if I someone were to ask me to cast them a copy - would I be wrong in doing so?



This is the basis of probably 80% of all aftermarket resin kits -- a modified or corrected kit part. Not a problem, because your mods will have made it into somethign different than what it was when you started ... jimminy, does that make sense
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To simply put it, and without all the legal mumbo-jumbo...

If you use anything of mine that I have posted on the internet or in print for your own personal gain or profit, without my expressed written consent, I will come after you.

It is much safer to ask first.

I have the same opinion here. I take plenty of reference photos and post them online for people to use as reference. While I have never told someone who has asked that they can't use copies of my photos on their websites, I have noticed my photos posted on other people's sites who have not asked. I think this is inconsiderate (as well as being illegal), even if they do pop my name somewhere giving me credit.

I do not make money by taking photographs, nor would I even consider myself to be an amateur photographer or even an photography enthusiast. I'm just a modeler who takes snapshots of armor vehicles I have access to. All I want is for people to have common courtesy to ask me before using my photographs on their websites.
Paul
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:29 AM UTC
Ok, If I write a build up article in FSM, can I post those photos on the web, or do they become FSM property?
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have noticed my photos posted on other people's sites who have not asked. I think this is inconsiderate (as well as being illegal), even if they do pop my name somewhere giving me credit.



Rob, while it's certainly inconsiderate, unless you have a copyright statement (at the minimum) and possibly have been formally granted copyright, I don't know that you have legal protection under copyright laws. Use by another person as their own work could be considered plagiarism, and you might have recourse there.

BroAbrams
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:57 AM UTC
I know that if you wrote, photogtraphed or published something, you maintain a copywrite even if you don't officially apply for copywrite protection on it. It is you intellectual property. Sometimes I need to do a technical drawing for my work, I need it but the company I do it for doesn't pay me to do it and the CAD license is in my name, therefore I maintain the copywrite. I could sell these drawings (if anyone wanted them) if I chose to, and my company could say very little. However I cannot incorporate some of their drawing files into mine or I could get into trouble when I leave the company and take my drawings with me.

This would also apply to anything else that was write protected, like a patent. As long as you can prove it is something you did, and I keep the log files on a secure hard drive, then no one can do anything you don't want them to without your permission or they risk a lawsuit.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 05:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have noticed my photos posted on other people's sites who have not asked. I think this is inconsiderate (as well as being illegal), even if they do pop my name somewhere giving me credit.



Rob, while it's certainly inconsiderate, unless you have a copyright statement (at the minimum) and possibly have been formally granted copyright, I don't know that you have legal protection under copyright laws. Use by another person as their own work could be considered plagiarism, and you might have recourse there.

While I do not have much legal knowledge beyond such TV shows as Cops and Judge Judy, I do know that copyright exists immediately at the creation of the work and is secured automatically with no formal action in the Copyright Office. See the following link below, specifically the "Who can claim copyright" and "How to secure a copyright." I do admit that registering the copyright solidifies one's copyright claim, but the fact is that it is not required.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wccc
keenan
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 06:27 AM UTC
I am not a lawyer and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I have a question:
This morning I posted a picture in the forums in the "Effects" thread. I snatched it from someone else's web page. I did post the information about where I found the photo and the URL to the original content.

Is that type of cross posting discourteous at best or even illegal?
Thanks,
Shaun
Paul_Owen
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:14 AM UTC
The real issue here is liability. If you upload an image, logo, quote or whatever that belongs to someone else here and you use it in a way the owner does not like then this site is liable for damages. For exmaple, if someoene uses the box top image in a review and the review states the kit is poor then the company who made the kit could sue this site for damages. The fact that they may or may not win is irrelevent since hiring a lawyer is costly enough to ruin a site like this.

This is why I require a written release from the company for all reviews that feature book covers, box top images and sprue shots on Track-Link.
brandydoguk
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:28 AM UTC
In many books and magazines the copyright statement states that "No part of this publication may be reproduced in any form without prior written permission." By me copying this statement here I have probably infringed the copyright laws.
kkeefe
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Posted: Monday, April 05, 2004 - 08:42 AM UTC
I don't have a problem with someone posting my stuff on other websites, in fact, I would most likely be flattered. Common courtesy should dictate that I be asked prior to this occuring but unfortunately , this does not always happen, and that is semi-ok with me as long as either I or my website gets a mention for the origins. The way that I look at it is that just maybe, I might be helping somebody out with the hobby and/or a common (mortar) interest...

BUT...

I If someone is taking credit for personal and/or financial gains from my work, to include my photography without my permission... I have every right to go after that someone and I will!! This also includes stealing bandwidth! (Yes, I did get legal advice before I published my website.)

When in doubt, either ask or talk to your lawyer.... Most people would bend over backwards to help you out if you show some courtesy to them and to their property. This has been my experience so far.
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