Modeling in General
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General discussions about modeling topics.
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Are you still buying/building older kits?
Namabiiru
Associate Editor
#399
Member Since: March 05, 2014
entire network: 2,888 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 05:17 AM UTC
I think there is a broader spectrum of options available than I feel you're giving us credit for. I don't need to scratch build an entire interior just to do a nice job on an older kit. I recently completed several ancient Tamiya kits that were in bad need of some upgrades, but it wasn't worth quadrupling the cost of the build for an overkill PE set, and I had more fun making my own upgrades to make it look better (yes, not more accurate, just better--to my eye anyway). Probably took considerably less time than tryng to apply all the PE that comes in a set and is mostly too small to be seen and certainly amps up the frustration factor.
mmeier
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 02:43 PM UTC
Due to the way german working laws are written and me (like many germans) being on a fixed salary job I have a LOT of time on my hand. Even more so since I am single and some of my other hobbies are seasonal limited. 30 days of paid leave with sick time NOT deduced from that and quite a few official hollidays add a lot there. And like the majority of germans - no garden/house, I live in a flat.
I can't do photography in the winter since it is dark when I am not at work (no nature pictures) and the medival fairs do not run (no medival fairs pictures). So my time comes cheap and it is more effective to scratch stuff than buy it. Just like I currently do with a garage.
Sure, I COULD apply for the permit to get a second job (My employer has a say there by law) but the two areas where I can get one that makes bucks after taxes are giving courses in programming at evening school (Yeah, more of the stuff I do 8h a day and take pains NOT to do at home(1)) or doing photo jobs (Bye, bye relaxing hobby, hello stressful job no 2). Everything else won't be allowed/is not available.
So to ME not buying available stuff is quite rational since it saves me money that I can use somewhere else while time is something I have in abundance. Others might have a different situation and priorities.
=======================
If one has more jobs than time use the Eisenhower Method.
Make a four square grid
In the upper left write the most important job that YOU must do (say "Stroking Monties Ego")
In the upper right write the second important job that YOU must do (say "Stroking deGaulles Ego")
In the lower left write the stuff you can delegate (say "Keeping Patton in check" - Bradley can do that)
And in the lower right write the stuff that is not important and can be dropped (say "Defeating the Nazis")
(1) So great ones that I have refused the permit to do home office and do not have a single piece of software development environment on my home box (That I need for photography)
I can't do photography in the winter since it is dark when I am not at work (no nature pictures) and the medival fairs do not run (no medival fairs pictures). So my time comes cheap and it is more effective to scratch stuff than buy it. Just like I currently do with a garage.
Sure, I COULD apply for the permit to get a second job (My employer has a say there by law) but the two areas where I can get one that makes bucks after taxes are giving courses in programming at evening school (Yeah, more of the stuff I do 8h a day and take pains NOT to do at home(1)) or doing photo jobs (Bye, bye relaxing hobby, hello stressful job no 2). Everything else won't be allowed/is not available.
So to ME not buying available stuff is quite rational since it saves me money that I can use somewhere else while time is something I have in abundance. Others might have a different situation and priorities.
=======================
If one has more jobs than time use the Eisenhower Method.
Make a four square grid
In the upper left write the most important job that YOU must do (say "Stroking Monties Ego")
In the upper right write the second important job that YOU must do (say "Stroking deGaulles Ego")
In the lower left write the stuff you can delegate (say "Keeping Patton in check" - Bradley can do that)
And in the lower right write the stuff that is not important and can be dropped (say "Defeating the Nazis")
(1) So great ones that I have refused the permit to do home office and do not have a single piece of software development environment on my home box (That I need for photography)
Namabiiru
Associate Editor#399
Member Since: March 05, 2014
entire network: 2,888 Posts
KitMaker Network: 489 Posts
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 06:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI think there is a broader spectrum of options available than I feel you're giving us credit for. I don't need to scratch build an entire interior just to do a nice job on an older kit. I recently completed several ancient Tamiya kits that were in bad need of some upgrades, but it wasn't worth quadrupling the cost of the build for an overkill PE set, and I had more fun making my own upgrades to make it look better (yes, not more accurate, just better--to my eye anyway). Probably took considerably less time than tryng to apply all the PE that comes in a set and is mostly too small to be seen and certainly amps up the frustration factor.
The stug interior built from scratch is on the extreme end of the spectrum. It serves as an example. Just like scratchbuilding wheels or other parts readily available on the market.
I do not know what Tamiya kits you are referring to and what sort of heroics you put in. It is all on a case by case basis.
One of the points I am trying to make is the foolishness in putting so much more effort in an older model when for a few dollars more, you can have a nicer model with far less time and effort. As I have also explained (repeatedly), this is compounded when you consider that almost all modelers have a veritable wall of death as a stash that they might get through most of if they are lucky. Spending needless time to reinvent what is already out there incurs a huge lost opportunity cost in this way: all those other, better kits you could be building with that valuable modelling time.
Just saying "well some people like scratchbuilding for the sake of scartchbuilding" or "what might be right for you may not be right for some" is simply not a valid rebuttal to these and other points.
To a degree I see your point: I think people who spend hours fishing and golfing are a little crazy (many of them would probably even agree). But to try to boil something like hobbies down to a purely rational, business-oriented argument loses too much in translation. It would be even more crazy for me to tell someone they shouldn't go fishing because they will waste hours of precious time, probably not catch anything, and they could have just gone to the supermarket to buy all the fish they wanted. Likewise, I'd be wasting my breath trying to convince a golfer not to use up all that valuable time trying to flog a ball from one end of the course to the other when he could saved all the time (not to mention cost of green fees and equipment) if he just walked up to the 18th hole, dropped the ball in the cup, and headed straight for the clubhouse to start drinking.
(All that stuff about fishing and golf is a light-hearted attempt at humor, and shouldn't be misconstrued as in any way trying to prove or disprove a point
)@mmeier: Your Eisenhower analogy is cracking me up!
Namabiiru
Associate Editor#399
Member Since: March 05, 2014
entire network: 2,888 Posts
KitMaker Network: 489 Posts
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 07:48 PM UTC
Oh, I'm quite aware of the irony. You did see my note, right?
mmeier
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 08:02 PM UTC
I tried to fish twice. Once during a three week holiday in sweden. After a week we (three guys) where sure that we had the same type of lake that Col. O'Neill from StarGate owns. Next day the groundkeeper asked if we would help him deploy/retrieve a fishing net and offered 1/4th of the catch. We ended up with a dozend fishes of "feeds a person" size...
The second time was in germany three years later and went better. We caught about 100 meters of 200mm pipe and a dredge. Sadly mortar fishing is illegal in germany...
================
Hobbies are not rational nor is time/money payed for them.
Paying, it is not "Investing", 2000€ just so you can try to balance on an instable board while trying to maneuver a free rotating sail that seems designed to drop you in the water? Well, my uncle thinks it is fun.
Paying 400€/year in membership fees to chase a fuzzy yellow ball (With a 300€ racket that costs 100€/year to maintain) - well a coworker loves it.
Shooting a bow or a small bore rifle on a range? In a country where hunting is very restricted and bow hunting forbidden? People still do this (more the latter) quite a bit.
Lugging around 10kg of equipment that would make Capra or Cartier-Bresson salviate to shoot pictures of mallards and emus in good light conditions - my way to relax(1).
Approach the stuff rational and sports becomes hicking/jogging on good roads. And hobby/amateur pictures are taken with a cheap and light digicam with the short depth of field etc. added with a 100€ software.
(1) Granted, I also use it in bad conditions but still, 70 percent of my pictures have good light, 25 percent more could be done with flash and/or some receipts from the "Book of Kelby"
The second time was in germany three years later and went better. We caught about 100 meters of 200mm pipe and a dredge. Sadly mortar fishing is illegal in germany...
================
Hobbies are not rational nor is time/money payed for them.
Paying, it is not "Investing", 2000€ just so you can try to balance on an instable board while trying to maneuver a free rotating sail that seems designed to drop you in the water? Well, my uncle thinks it is fun.
Paying 400€/year in membership fees to chase a fuzzy yellow ball (With a 300€ racket that costs 100€/year to maintain) - well a coworker loves it.
Shooting a bow or a small bore rifle on a range? In a country where hunting is very restricted and bow hunting forbidden? People still do this (more the latter) quite a bit.
Lugging around 10kg of equipment that would make Capra or Cartier-Bresson salviate to shoot pictures of mallards and emus in good light conditions - my way to relax(1).
Approach the stuff rational and sports becomes hicking/jogging on good roads. And hobby/amateur pictures are taken with a cheap and light digicam with the short depth of field etc. added with a 100€ software.
(1) Granted, I also use it in bad conditions but still, 70 percent of my pictures have good light, 25 percent more could be done with flash and/or some receipts from the "Book of Kelby"
mmeier
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 09:05 PM UTC
"Militant Relativism" is a new one.
And just because YOU lack time does not mean others do. As I said, I have around 40-45 days of paid leave and state hollidays a year (depending on the fall, we do not do the "if it falls on a sunday shift it" stuff) and 52 weeksends. More than enough time to "waste" on "irrational", "foolish" and "eccentric" things.
What I do NOT have is time to waste on people wearing "my way is the only right way" blinds. So to use an old internet term:
PLONK
And just because YOU lack time does not mean others do. As I said, I have around 40-45 days of paid leave and state hollidays a year (depending on the fall, we do not do the "if it falls on a sunday shift it" stuff) and 52 weeksends. More than enough time to "waste" on "irrational", "foolish" and "eccentric" things.
What I do NOT have is time to waste on people wearing "my way is the only right way" blinds. So to use an old internet term:
PLONK
alanmac
Member Since: February 25, 2007
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 55 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 03:45 AM UTC
Sherb
Do you enjoy what you describe?
Does it for you make model making a pleasure ?
Does it do harm to anybody else in the pursuit of doing so?
If the answer to the first two questions are yes and the last is no, then that's all that really matters.
Model making encompasses many interests and levels of participation. From straight out the box, to scratch building from sheets of plastic, some enjoy just the construction element, whilst others just see it as a means to an end - the painting part that they really enjoy the hobby for. Single examples on shelves in the hobby room to dioramas recreating some moment in time in miniature.
No one approach is right, only the right one that suits you and brings you what you wish to achieve from this hobby.
Enjoy.
Alan
Do you enjoy what you describe?
Does it for you make model making a pleasure ?
Does it do harm to anybody else in the pursuit of doing so?
If the answer to the first two questions are yes and the last is no, then that's all that really matters.
Model making encompasses many interests and levels of participation. From straight out the box, to scratch building from sheets of plastic, some enjoy just the construction element, whilst others just see it as a means to an end - the painting part that they really enjoy the hobby for. Single examples on shelves in the hobby room to dioramas recreating some moment in time in miniature.
No one approach is right, only the right one that suits you and brings you what you wish to achieve from this hobby.
Enjoy.
Alan
sherb
Member Since: August 25, 2004
entire network: 752 Posts
KitMaker Network: 341 Posts
Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sherb
Do you enjoy what you describe?
Does it for you make model making a pleasure ?
Does it do harm to anybody else in the pursuit of doing so?
If the answer to the first two questions are yes and the last is no, then that's all that really matters.
Model making encompasses many interests and levels of participation. From straight out the box, to scratch building from sheets of plastic, some enjoy just the construction element, whilst others just see it as a means to an end - the painting part that they really enjoy the hobby for. Single examples on shelves in the hobby room to dioramas recreating some moment in time in miniature.
No one approach is right, only the right one that suits you and brings you what you wish to achieve from this hobby.
Enjoy.
Alan
Hi Alan, it's definitely a Yes, Yes and No. You raise some good points.
Overall it's a time to relax, be creative, engage in some recreational problem solving, learn about a new subject/unit/battle etc.
Maybe my original question isn't as simple as is there more enjoyment with old or new kits. I enjoy doing some scratch work/adding missing details during a build. The newer kits don't always give you that opportunity. On the other hand the suspension is usually the least enjoyable part of a build for me. Nowadays there are independent suspension arms, four piece road wheels and more. Gone (relatively speaking) are the days of slapping the wheel halves and polycap together and sticking them on. Then there is the matter of finding the right amount of PE.
There are some subjects I'm willing to go all out on while there are others I want to build OOB just to be able to say I've built and X, Y or Z.
Whichever road you take there are bound to be highs and lows.
alanmac
Member Since: February 25, 2007
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 55 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 12:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Overall it's a time to relax, be creative, engage in some recreational problem solving, learn about a new subject/unit/battle etc.
Maybe my original question isn't as simple as is there more enjoyment with old or new kits. I enjoy doing some scratch work/adding missing details during a build. The newer kits don't always give you that opportunity. On the other hand the suspension is usually the least enjoyable part of a build for me. Nowadays there are independent suspension arms, four piece road wheels and more. Gone (relatively speaking) are the days of slapping the wheel halves and polycap together and sticking them on. Then there is the matter of finding the right amount of PE.
There are some subjects I'm willing to go all out on while there are others I want to build OOB just to be able to say I've built and X, Y or Z.
Whichever road you take there are bound to be highs and lows.
Hi Sherb
Absolutely. It's whatever approach you want to take, after all it's your time, nobody else's. Others may see it as a waste of time, but then again you could say that about all plastic modelling. The pride of place today will probably be the landfill of tomorrow, regardless of how good or bad it was to build, or how accurate it is. But if it gave that person pleasure, satisfaction and a sense of achievement along the way then all well and good.
One of my other interests is gardening, something my son simply doesn't understand how I can get pleasure from it. To him it's just hardwork, up to your elbows in dirt, digging out weeds that will only come back again whilst struggling to nurture and bring on those plants you spent a small fortune for at the garden centre. It may not look prize winning or even pleasing to other people but I don't care. When I sit back and look at the end result whilst sipping a cold beer or a cup of tea I know what it took to achieve it and I'm satisfied. That doesn't stop me from wanting to add and improve.
The same parallels can be drawn with modelling. No one should tell you what level you should be participating at, or what you should be achieving other than what you yourself desire.
Happy Modelling.
Alan
Namabiiru
Associate Editor#399
Member Since: March 05, 2014
entire network: 2,888 Posts
KitMaker Network: 489 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 01:19 AM UTC
I think you've nailed it, Sherb.
sherb
Member Since: August 25, 2004
entire network: 752 Posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 02:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I think you've nailed it, Sherb.
Yeah, but it still doesn't make it any easier to decide which kit to build next.
mmeier
Member Since: October 22, 2008
entire network: 1,280 Posts
KitMaker Network: 213 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 03:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI think you've nailed it, Sherb.
Yeah, but it still doesn't make it any easier to decide which kit to build next.
Have you tried the method of throwing a dart at your stash while closing your eyes?
md72
#439
Member Since: November 05, 2005
entire network: 4,950 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 09:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Have you tried the method of throwing a dart at your stash while closing your eyes?
With my luck the dart would penetrate the canopy of a long OOP kit with no aftermarket replacement....
spiralcity
Member Since: October 14, 2012
entire network: 150 Posts
KitMaker Network: 43 Posts
Posted: Friday, March 25, 2016 - 07:22 PM UTC
I buy and build old kits all the time. If your into scratch building or adding after market parts, you can turn some of the old dogs into winners. It's actually fun to build the old kits even straight from the box.
Monte
Member Since: December 08, 2002
entire network: 833 Posts
KitMaker Network: 216 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 02:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I It's actually fun to build the old kits even straight from the box.
I'm about to start Tamiya's Type 61. I was thinking of building it OOB but looking at the tracks and seeing the date stamp of 1970 in the hull, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy felling about this kit.
Robbd01
#323
Member Since: February 13, 2013
entire network: 791 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 03:58 AM UTC
Old, New don't matter to me. My ever growing stash shows it. Beside I have been modeling off and on since I was 4 years old (1961 - you do the long arithmetic) so I remember most of it when it was once new.
Man cave walkaround
https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=10508&p=albums&album=26947
https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=10508&p=albums&album=26948
If you keep it long enough what was new will become old
Cheers
Man cave walkaround
https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=10508&p=albums&album=26947
https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mate.php?id=10508&p=albums&album=26948
If you keep it long enough what was new will become old
Cheers
Scarred
Member Since: March 11, 2016
entire network: 1,792 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:54 AM UTC
I built my first kit back in 69 (I was 4), a snap together Sherman, with my terminally ill dad. To me a multimedia kit is balsa wood, tissue paper and vacuum formed parts. I'll build anything that peaks my interest. I've even got the gawd awful Halcyon Nostromo molded in vinyl that I do intend to build. Someday. There isn't a flat surface on that thing all the sides are concave. Or convex. Back in 07 I lost most of my kit stash, supplies, tools, spares, completed kits and leftovers when the family house, where they were being stored temporarily, exploded and burned. They were mainly late 80's thru late 90's kits, Tamiya, Dragon/DML, Gunze, Academy IDF, Hasagawa, Fujimi and some of my older sci-fi kits. Most of the kits that did survive were newer, late 90's to early 03, but they still weren't what you find nowadays with the newer emphasis on accuracy, detail and part count. A few years ago a friend of mine dropped dead. Literally. I'd just talked to him and 20 minutes later while he was walking across a parking lot he died. He was estranged from his family so it was up to us and his girlfriend to go thru his things. His family showed up and we went thru his storage unit with them. They were looking for his high end audio/video equipment and his fire arms. The rest of his stuff they told us to throw away. I knew my friend was a hard core modeller, he even worked on a few films back in the 80's, so I opened up a box that was going in the dumpster and lo and behold it was full of sealed "older" models. See, this old guy had a hobby shop somewhere in California that went out of business. He kept his old stock because he was going to build until he died. There were HUNDREDS of kits! New, unopened cars, planes, ships, armor, open but complete kits, everything. Boxes of paints, aftermarket parts, supplies and tools! His family told me to take them that they were just garbage to them, and I filled up a bedroom with kits and essentials. He had no life insurance and his family wasn't going to pay for his funeral so we had a garage sale and over the next few days sold most of his books, most of the kits (even the opened ones which I spent days inventorying) paints and tools. Modellers were coming out of the wood work. We raised enough to give this guy a send off and help his girl friend. I gave away many of the unsold kits to kids with glue, basic tools and paint. I still have many kits that were opened but complete in my spare room. But I was able to buy enough kits to rebuild my stash and with his girl friends permission I kept the left overs.
These are all "old" kits. Lots of armor, a few ships and planes. I have many new kits, produced within the past 5 years, Fine Molds, Trumpeter (1/16 Panzer IV), newer Dragon and Tamiya. And I'll build them. Some just to practice newer techniques of painting, others to correct the errors and detail, but most of all for enjoyment.
Old kits, new kits it doesn't freaking matter, just build it.
These are all "old" kits. Lots of armor, a few ships and planes. I have many new kits, produced within the past 5 years, Fine Molds, Trumpeter (1/16 Panzer IV), newer Dragon and Tamiya. And I'll build them. Some just to practice newer techniques of painting, others to correct the errors and detail, but most of all for enjoyment.
Old kits, new kits it doesn't freaking matter, just build it.
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