I know the scale model industry is not a "high-tech" one. However I have to admit I am a bit disappointed that after 2 years of operation and unlooked-for success, this site is still having a hard-time getting advertising dollars. We have it's true received a considerable amount in the past from various companies (some who still advertise with us today). And perhaps I have not done a good enough job in getting the site noticed by vendors, manufacturers or resellers. Well I guess this is a chance to do that...

I ran across a site today that is up-and-coming in the Military (not modeling) world. It is trying to be the next Military.com obviously. Here is the page on their site that talks about online advertising rates. http://www.militarycity.com/advertising/online.html

$3000 a month is the lowest monthly budget their site allows. Looking at their sites Alexa ranking it is 54,927 (meaning they are the 54,927 most popular site on the Internet based on sites that Alexa has received data for). Armorama is ranked 28,933. So we are almost half their number and much more popular. And our monthly minimum ad budget? $50.

Looking at MilitaryCity's "reach" ranking it's true they get more individual users. Their 3 mo. avg is 42,484 and ours is 94,437. However our ranking avg. for the past week is 55,786 and theirs is 36,019. A bit closer.

What does it all mean? Well for one I don't charge enough for advertising. Is not charging enough somehow making the potential impact of advertising here seem less? In other words you feel better paying $17,000 for a Honda Civic but not $12,000 for a Kia (even though they are both good cars)?

I want to share another example of Alexa statistics. Military.com is a much more popular site (they are currently ranked 2924). 3 million members, blah blah. A nice site really. However this is telling. Alexa also tracks how many pages users view on average each visit.

Page Views per user:
Military.com: 4.6
Armorama.com: 55.4

So if you are advertising in a random banner situation you have 4 chances for your banner to be seen (and a chance it won't even be one of those four). While on this site you have 55 chances. Hmm...

In case you are wondering how I am coming by all these stats just download the Alexa toolbar at www.alexa.com and see for yourself.

I am not trying to toot my own horn here. Armorama is only going to thrive with support from those who benefit from all these wonderful people who visit this site and others like it. I just happen to think we aren't getting the kind of broad-based support this site should have.

Thanks for reading and I hope this sparks some interest in advertising on our site. For more information see the link at the very bottom of the site.

Cheers,
Jim

Jim Thanks for that information. As you are probably aware I have a small Resin Company called Roo Resin. I am about to release my 2nd and 3rd kits very soon. Now your advetising prices are excellent but! Even at $50USD a month that works out for me approximately $20AUD a week at a rough exchange rate. $80AUD a month. As a small guy just starting up I could not afford that ongoing price at the moment. Later....well we will see.

thanks Cliff

Cliff,
Lol...yes obviously the potential sales and numbers of new customers would have to be weighed. But even for a small company just starting out it is probably the best $150 (3 months) in advertising that you might buy.

Cheers,
Jim

I'm a member of MilitaryCity.com, they aim towards all areas of servicemembers: active, reserve, retired, veterans, military spouses, dependents, survivors of deceased military, parents of servicemembers, DoD federal workers, etc.

Plus they produce at least five different weekly newspapers, Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times, Marine Times, and Federal Times. I've been a subscriber to Army Times since I was in college in the Guard and have probably been using the Militarycity gateway since its inception in the mid-90s. I remember when they had a real neat locator that could find anyone in the service in any branch. After privacy concerns in the late 90s, that stuff was pared down and after 9/11, the world wide locator was taken down.

People access the site when they want housing/rental info at a new site, research new pay rates, insurance, etc. They get a lot of exposure in a much larger cross section of the population.

Jim,

Getting model companies to advertise is a complete waste of time. There are many factors involved. One is the sheer number of existing model sites around and the number of reviews and forum messages about new products. You can't do anything about this unless you bought off all of your competition and stopped modellers from posting messages about new products. I have been told several times by companies that they prefer to give out review samples and post messages in free forums.

In the case of Armorama, I have asked a couple of my advertisers about why they didn't consider advertising with you. And, don't take this the wrong way, but this is what they told me, they either hadn't heard of Armorama or didn't take it seriously, one vendor cited the rank, avatars and sigs as "childish". Maybe something to consider.

I am going to get rid of my advertising (maybe you can have them?) and focus on the other revenue stream idea I told you about.

On a side note, I just negotiated a $1/GB (Canadian) bandwidth deal for my server with no co-location fee. There is plenty of room and the office is a couple blocks away from my apartment, if you get a server perhaps we can work something out...

Paul.

Jim,
maybe another way is to contact some of the Vendors/Manufacturers and ask to be
put on their mailing lists for samples of new kits ect and give them a review ect and
do an online review of the kit/ect then maybe every so often hold a raffle/prize draw of sorts which say costs a couple of
£/$ ect and try and make some revenue that way than after abit submit your stats back
to the Vendors/Manufacturers and try for them to advertise? may be worth contacting
some of the UK shops like Hannants and LSA due to the amount of Brits on the site
and the fact that they only seem to advertise in UK mags so might be worth looking
down that route

Hi mate....firstly...As Slaphead (in another life. The Small Shop EU.) I feel for you...

You (as do other sites) do a GREAT job for the hobby ..a VERY good job.

It is a fact, many of us 'Trade' guys are small makers/distributors ...often we do the trade thing to keep our own hobby/interests going and funded...many never advertise at all, most don’t even make 'true' profits at all, not one the Bank or Wife understands !

There are problems however with Adverts in the hobby which if you keep track of just where the sales are coming from would surprise many...

I place a very limited numbers of adverts in a few mags and have a few Banners floating about...the paper adverts don’t cost that much but they do seem to get results...basically the customer does not have a choice of seeing your add in all its glory...with web banners and such’ 'most' do not click them...I know that from the web stats I have’....hence my resistance to Web Adverts...well the Banner type anyway...they just do not work for me and my small budget... as an open question….honestly when did you last click one ??.

Margin in this hobby is laughably small, very small compared to other markets....the 300% mark up from factory to retail is about right for the Big boys (kit makers etc)' the same is true in ‘general’ retail...that’s why so many makers of small run products can never get their materials to the shops (and they don’t often buy them anyway)...the cost would be disastrously high to the end user...I would think that most small guys when the true cost is considered make 30-40% max….retailers need 50%…taxes, import etc etc…it’s a crippler believe me

As an example, take the new BrassAssit Roller set we have just released, if you take 'normal marking rules', the cost to the customer of this 'small' run product, which has to share production machines with parts for the Airbus aircraft !! (not kidding here) should retail at about $150 US dollars (about £78.00) !!,,,now who would pay that ?? so just how does this get to market at $60 bucks ??…by cutting margin…that is a risk when you put up $5000 for the first production run !!…that is I think, where your advertising revenue is going from the small guy.

This gets to the problem in the plastics market...very few people understand the true cost of production, design or small run production economics let alone the marketing and the huge amount time put into the products we all 'need'. It is further compounded by very high ‘stock’ costs, shipping world wide, taxes and ‘dealer’ margin demands ….this I understand ( and obviously have chosen to deal with as best I can) but point out never the less.

I have NO gripes about working like this so I am NOT complaining just pointing out facts which eventually effect all our choices as model makers or as traders, and I am both as most of you know.

If you then add the fact that if a product is 'invented' or uniquely modelled, then produced, there is not the margins to 'protect' it....we all know of how many things that have been copied...but who has the $30,000 dollars to protect it legally...again only the big boys...forget about one of our products and its recent situation...just how many figures have a very ‘similar’ face/ head to a Hornet produced one !...it beggars belief just what we will accept and just how often this has killed off very good products and small makers.

Small run production is not cheep...couple that with an un-protected design and there will be NO business loans for you, none, zip, bugger all in fact, ..CATCH 22 ! all over again…now is that all our faults as well as the regulators in our own countries, both yes and maybe.

PS
[we have now managed protected the roller set, hint hint, but at a terrible cost in legal fees alone, don't you love the legal people and governments].

So…just what does that leave for the Web sites…very little I am afraid, this is massively regrettable' but is a fact…nobody can live on advertising alone…

My only thoughts are,
1. Sell the site to “major player” or such.. not a great thought I know based on the Osprey/ML situation. (even with their positive efforts to avoid interfering, which is commendable). A ture indapendant press and all that.
2. Some how make an Main Sponsor arrangement (which will be a commercial one) with one of the BIG boys (Tamiya Mag is a VERY good example of this arrangement working)
3. Supplement the income with sales of products as some others have done.
WW2MM has an expanding Hobby Shop, Missing-Links has Osprey , Track-Link struggles with the same problem as yourself I would think.

If I may the option that is most likely the only one available is No 3.

I wish you luck, I for one find the 3 main WEB SITE players, invaluable, enjoyable and a major boost for the hobby…but I do wish the MAIN players would, like Osprey have to their credit , support all your works as well as the other sites.
We small boys cannot easily provide the funds that you need…like yourself we struggle along and regret with a heavy heart that we often are not able to satisfy your needs.

Slap Head

Dear Jim,

I have nothing to advertise or I would do so.

But, your site is so helpful to me, that I would pay an annual membership fee. I get no better help from any other source. You deserve the support and if advertising isn't covering the costs, why not separate the men and women from the boys and girls?

I thank you and Armorama every chance I get, but that doesn't keep the lights on. If you go the membership way, count on Sealhead as your first paying member.

Sealhead (Kansas Sunflower)

Hi sealhead. There is already a sort of membership... its called the A-guard. The option is there to pay $25 to $75 a year. As well as helping armorama, you also have that size in free MBs (25MB or 75MB) for your gallery, as a benefit! It is optional as well.
Another thing that helps the site is your continued help and postings and helping new modellers. When new modellers get help and return often to the site, it keeps numers up ..... hopefully someday enough for a big player to take realise there is a market here.


this must be the most lame excuse I have ever heard. Look at the recent interest in getting more personalised/nationalised rank emblems. There has always been an interest in the ranking system as a fun system. And the avatar and sigs are optional ..... so every user has chosen their own. The site has only provided the option. And the big advantage of this is identification ....... you dont hae to sign your name when you post. On another mentioned site, if you dont use your name ... full name that is ... eventhough you have a valid point/question.... the moderator can delete your posting or it will be pointed out by half the site!
Good luck Jim... look like you´ll need it!

hehe - I have my avatar, my signature, and my rank.........but I still easily spend 150 USD a month on modeling related stuff. How "childish" is that? lol

Later-
Jeff

Dear Jim,

For what its worth, here are two more comments.

1. When I suggested a membership fee to separate the men and women from the boys and girls, I meant that in terms of committment, not age.
2. I will sign up for the extra photo space, even though I don't need it now, just to support your efforts.

Sealhead (Kansas Sunflower)

hi

about those reviews etc.... a good review is the best publicity a firm can get. a merchand of models here once said to me, that people do not want to buy italeri figure kits anymore because at a site someone said it was rubish.

so we can conclude that the internet is popular for modelers (even in a small country like belgium)

why would this be a childish unimportant site when we have so many members ??

about those samples
last year i have contacted many compagnies for free samples in order to boost the review page here but many never awnser.

Still i have some e-mails from firms who promest me free samples etc, but i only get some folders.

i think it's not wise that firms conclude that these sites are not a right medium to advertise.

ps. for the guy who said it's childish to have avatars, ranks etc ... i thought modelism is an hobby. the purpose is to have fun. it seems that owners of modelfirms are only interest in money and not the fun of this hobby.
i wish there where more owners of brands who make models only for fun .....

have fun

dmd

#:-) This is my opinion, for what it's worth. I don't (and I'm probably one of the few) order over the web. I usually do phone orders. It's just as quick and you get to talk to a PERSON. If a company advertises with Armorama..let them know you saw them HERE.
If there is a company that doesn't advertise with Armorama make them aware of the sales potential. I mean we ALL have to buy kits why not let the companies know that they have a captive audience..right here. Believe me the next time i order from Squadron, Model Expo, Great Models Webstore, etc. I'll let them know that they should be advertising here. If companies hear Armorama enough they will listen. A "grass roots" effort if you will.

I have gotten in the habit of Ordering from site advertisers

"You need to attract the Steve Zalogas, the Ron Volstads etc but that will not happen under the current "interactive experience" that is Armorama." WHY? SEZ WHO?

"Within that club are such luminaries as Dave Parker, Don Campbell, Alex Clark, Phill Hyslop and many others - people who are quite high rollers in the field of armor modelling today - and yet not one of them ever visits armorama except myself. This is precisely because of the avatars and handles that are used to identify members of this site, while I do like how the site is set up the fact is that proffessional people, whether just builders or model producers do look at this and see it as, being perfectly honest, a bit childish - REGARDLESS of who the people are who live behind the names." SO WHAT? I"VE NEVER HEARD OF THESE GUYS!!

Modeling is a hobby. Nothing more than that. This website is outstanding the way it is, Childish avatars and all.

I come to this website to be entertained and informed, not to have " luminaries " in the wild, wacky, life on the razors edge world of plastic modeling look down their nose at anyone here or Jim's fine page.

These guys need to get over themselves and just enjoy playing with plastic!

Captain94
AKA Bob K.


Here's an avatar for ya,Tyneside IPMS modelling club!!

Hey, Jim

I just dropped a little donation to the cause for Ya.

Keep up the great work, this site is second to none!

thanks

Er.....Dave Parker, Don Campbell, Alex Clark, Phill Hyslop ......WHO? Get over yourself....nobody's heard of them. I dunno...maybe they're big in Tyneside...lol. Missing Lynx is BORING!
There is no such thing a a luminary in plastic modelling. I enjoy it but it's hardly earth shatteringly important is it?
What it is - is a hobby that we all enjoy...and Armorama ADDS to the experience I think we all agree.


Vinnie

Amazing. Perhaps 90% of the people I run into think this entire hobby is "childish." Now some folks think my sig file is "childish?" Amateurish, yeah, I'll grant ya that, but "childish?" Phooy on it. I am heading back to the liquor thread.

Shaun #:-) #:-)

Guys...don't shoot the messenger. I think Twig is "on topic" with the whole "why are their not more advertisers here" question. I would agree that certain vendors seem to value having the better known modelers (like Zaloga) on a site. But in reality we have quite a few talented folks here as well. Some well known and others not (the future Zalgoa's?).

Give poor Twig a break please because I think he is only trying to help.

As for some of his points I think I might have to disagree with the notion that "simple is better" and this type of forum is not as appealing as what ML or others offer. Functional is better in my book and this forum runs rings around most others in terms of functionality. Can moderators on ML rename topics? no
Move topics? no
Edit a post? no
Create sub-groups? no
Lock topics? no
Sticky topics? no
etc, etc, etc.

But they can (from lack of some of the above) DELETE posts.

People who might tell me they prefer the "simplicity" of ML's forum make me think of those folks in the early part of the last century who were fond of their horses. We may be stuck in the mud and people are yelling "Get a horse!" but soon we will be crusing on an Interstate highway and their forums will be in the glue factory.

Time will tell I guess. To be VERY honest I am a lot more concerned about sites like Fine Scale Modeler than I am about Missing Lynx. I may be a "bit" biased, but Armorama is a good couple of light-years ahead of ML now. Only Track-Link is in our league (tipping hat to Paul).

Cheers,
Jim

Kind of around what Jim just stated, I've found that site traffic doesn't seem to be centered around how good or bad a site it, but more around how long it's been around, or more importantly, when it came around and who it caters too.

There are some poorly done sites out there with huge traffic numbers and vice versa. I know of one particular site that isn't much more than a forum. It constantly crashes, it is hit by hackers, moves servers about twice a year, yet is the most popular forum in it's area (NASCAR).

I will never, for the life of me, figure out why people seem to like the layout of the forums used by M-L and Hyperscale. Why folks would only want to see 10 threads per page, with all of it's replies is beyond me. If I don't like the topics, I have to click through page after page of threads to see the latest posts since my last visit.

Is simple better?? Well, sometimes, yeah. But sometimes there is no choice but to move on.

My site has seen users come and go. It's been around longer than Armorama, but Jim knows what he's doing. I lost a lot of users over the years when I did some site redesigns, etc. The focus on military subjects also helps this site. From looking at my site traffic and other similar sites, people prefer sites focused around a genre over general modeling sites.

Anyway, I've really given up on thinking any type of advertising is going to happen on my site. I know this isn't what Jim would want to hear, but I'd much rather work with vendors willing to give me review samples/articles/etc. in exchange for banner advertising. The most successful banner campaign on my site is for Federation Models. I run his banner because I've known him for some time and because he sells my Enterprise B aztec decals, so in the end, it helps me as well.

OK I understand were Twig is comming from but people can choose to use their real name,have no avatars or rank system. So the choice is theirs as for for such as the big names well maybe its better they dont come over as Jim says we got some great talent here already such as AndersHeintz ,Nate, Arthur and Gino just on the figures fourm it's self
and what sorts these out is that they will go out of their way and explain how to do things
as do nearly all of us here do not just oh painted in my usual style maybe its this they dont like frightend that they will have to share their building/painting tips with us. as for one I certainly dont want to see the anal rivet counters who populate other sites appering here they have their place and this aint it.This site stands above all others by the fact you can have a laugh and enjoy modelling as it is.....a hobby nothing more those people who try to make it into a black art can stay on their other site and post full name an email required
least here no mater how trival you think the question is 9/10 you'll get an answer not have it blanked or removed as its deemed "not techincal" enough. I can rember the hassel Jim got for mentioning on a certain site about armoram and the greif he got for it thats why I came obver had a look and been here ever since . Yes maybe some qtrs are jelous of what great work Jim has done here and see it as a threat? why yes ML is dull boring and too full of email police and in my opion needs a good over haul its nothing more than a news group
lest here no one pokes at your skill levels.

remember those people who thought the telephone was a gimick and the "horseless carriage" would never last hmmm well did they eat their words or what
lets concentrate the wealth of skill and experence we have on this site not try to import it from anywere else and keep what this hobby is aboyt fun and making friends nothing more!

Captain94,
Thanks very much! It has been a while since we had a Gold signup and it was nice to see yours come through. You are all setup and should be seeing your enhanced gallery space available to you (as well as access to the A-Guard forum).

Cheers,
Jim

Alasdair,
I understand and agree with many of your points. But just for fun I checked my stats. Since Nov 11th, users have clicked the banners at the top of the site 4,594 times.

Cheers,
Jim

I'll use the Banners to check prices when I'm looking for kits!!

There's a few other points that are hurting advertising.

I) There is no consistent ad rate system across all of our sites. One site may charge $100/month for a banner while another site may trade them for review samples. Now if you were a vendor which would you pick?

2) There is no accurate consistent "hits" reporting system, or no easy one that advertisers can understand.

3) The advertisers are not professional web-marketers. Mostly they are one person basement operations run by technophobes who's sites are not designed to take advantage of proper banner linking. (how many of these vendor sites you see using frames? frames are the _worst_ thing you can have for an e-commerce site). These vendors don't know how to design proper banners that modellers would actually want to click on. Banner advertsing can work and it is well worth the money. They banners need to be designed by a professional as does the target site.

Paul.