Yup...agreed.

1. I know this was one thing we talked about on the webmasters forum. I still think that if you could sell to advertisers the idea that their banners would be run across multiple sites (a partnership) that it might be easier to get them to buy into it. However, there you run into the issues of dividing up the procedes equally, etc. Let's also face it, there is the possible problem of egos getting into it. I don't know if I would want to be caught in the middle of that over money.

2. There will never be an accurate way of tracking. Why do advertisers feel the system used for a website should be any different than a television. If you ask me, it's better. Even if I don't buy anything when I see that banner, I know that I can go back to that website, look for the banner again and purchase a product at a later date without even leaving the house. Let's see tv do that. Try and find that old magazine issue with the vendors information.

3. As with any form of advertising, you want the highest return on your advertising dollar. Problem is, most vendors won't know who that is.


I always felt that I'd love to set up a virtual store front selling products tailored to my audience. Would I be willing to set up a store front to sell vendor products for a cut of the profit? Possibly. But how do you accurately track that?

Hey guys!

I've read this thread a coule of times now, and I'll be the first to say thatI dont know a whole lot about advertising etc. But I think that there has been some great and valid points made through out this thread. I feel that the jumping of Twig was unnessessary and not deserved, he does have a valid point in that big names attracts users as they want to read what they have to say about their modeling abilities.

As for what Paul O said about the banners and that they need to be attractive, I agree 100% with that. Nothing is more attractive then an awesome looking banner. We have several great "banner makers" right here at Armorama, YodaMan, Eagle and Faust are just a few that comes to mind, and I am sure if they were asked that they would be more then happy to put together a few banners for a potential advertiser. I know I would if I was able to do the awesome banners.

Armorama is one of the best working and best looking sites on the web, and I cant personally understand anyone who would rather see a boring low tech site thats hard to navigate and have no visual appeal at all. I remember when I first started comming to Armorama when it was first launched, I came here from Historical Miniatures Forum, a figures only forum, and was amazed at how stylish looking the site was and how much more "fun" it was to use. Simple and 'normal' forum type sites have nothing compared to this system, period.

Just my 2¢ worth

Oh yeah Jim!




Agree about the point made 100% but some of us still have and use horses

First...I think most of the points being made have value...but I cannot agree with those who are 'popping' at Twig...he is open and honest..
It is always the best policy to listen to a fair man...God (who ever yours might be)' designed us with two ears and one mouth...please use them in that ratio...please remember he is ONLY expressing his own honest thoughts on the subject and that he has lots of knowledge on the subject, I know for a fact that this has been gained thru experience which should always be respected. Yes, disagree if you feel like it ,but do not ‘pop’ him.

Remember this was an 'OPEN' question which is designed to canvas thoughts..

Re the hits
It's about who says where they heard about the product when they purchase it,.. on this I ALWAYS, always ask the question 'where did you hear about the said product?’...all I am doing above is repeating the answer I get in 90% of replies...

It would seem by the replies to the question, that a lot of members think that most modellers are on the web.. this is defiantly NOT true....most quote ‘I saw the advert/review in this or that Mag’,' I met you/saw your product at this or that show'.

The great majority do not know this or any another site, (if they do it is M-L, which is often the reason they don’t use the web a lot !!.)

I have to go with that don't I ??.... Anyway I am putting my toe in (admittedly only a little ) to the web more and more and I know for sure that this activity will increase with time....this has only been possible with the help of a well know webmaster. An arrangement I made ‘before’ finding this site. He has a shop which helped out a lot….the barter system is alive and well within the trade folks !!….

The point however is that I ONLY sell FOUR products…not a business that can afford to advertise a lot.. when I do I have to be very brutal in my choices.

So, I ask this from all from ALL members of this site
…if EVER you see the product you wish PLEASE STATE ALL THE PLACES YOU HAVE SEEN IT when you order it…the important part is ALL THE PLACES…if you see it on the Web site of the manufacturer then purchase it from a trader…let the trader know that you saw it at his site AS WELL AS THE MAKERS SITE…it is only this way that we will ever know…that way you get us going to that site to place advertising…this is up to you but it would assist me in choosing which site will produce most interest in my limited range of products..

My thoughts from the trade side of my head are at constant war with my thoughts from the model maker side...as said before, it is very easy to 'spend' to much on your advertising...believe me...it is no way to run a business (however small) so please let us know.

As for Armorama…this is a great site and keep up the good works…it is a little different than the others, the ranks, advars etc are not my personal taste (but so are a lot of thing in life) and I personally find these a little childish, but then again I am an old bugger who finds lots of graphics get in the way…I can’t see the need for all sites to be the same…and I think everybody shows respect to each other as well as the hobby…
The method of running the site is fair, its dealings with the trade are great and IT DESERVES MORE assistance…work the big boys and the small ones will follow.

Alasdair
The Small Shop EU
www.smallshopeu.com

slaphead,
The reason I got some cast a coat was that I seen it here on this site so
you got a sale from me through here :-)

I'll chime in with some thoughts on this.
I'm not picking on an individual or company this is my own opinion.
I'll focus on the image of "childish" that is being used.
When a site or anything is referred to as "childish" that illicits the notion of : a child, immaturity, young, and I think advertiser translation is "not a customer".
I think this is Wrong and I think advertisers need to rethink the potential.

Young people have money and they want to spend it.

Do not discount a potential customer because of age.
This transfers to this site in that you should not discount an advertising avenue because of you believe it to be childish. Target your audience, revenue is revenue. It shouldn't be about the medium, it should be about putting the product in front of the customer. Think about all the new customers you could be presented to.

well said slodder these days even the mobile phone makers and networks know it's younger people who buy more of their products as they have a higher disposable income due to not having kids mortgage ect if they think its childish then they lose out on a customer who over the years may spend thousands due to customer loyalty and if some of the others cant see this then at the end of the day its their loss as some one will see the potental revenue stream that this site can generate for thier business!

I remember the days of saving my Allowance to go to the hobbyshop (when threr was one)
and spending it on models.......



I've dealt w/ a few "young" people on Ebay who had to wait for thier Allowance to be put in thier Paypal account!!!!!

First of all, I wish those guys who decided to pick on Twig for posting his "Opinions" would just cool their jets. He was being honest, and I don't know about you, but I still apreciate honesty, even when I don't agree with it.

He is right that this place is not set up to be profitable. But if it was, who would come here. He didn't say that it was a bad site, just not geared towards the profit margin. I honestly think no one would come here if it was. I don't really think Jim wants it that way either. I love the site in all it's unprofitable granduer. A site that makes money needs to have a simple, easily navigated pocess to make the money. This is a community, and just like many of the small towns we live in, we need to get to know it and learn how to get to our destination on our own. So it's okay to be a little less smoothe flowing. It's okay to have all the bells and whistles. Jim has put a lot of hard work and money into those bells and whistles. This has easily got to be the most features a site has ever had. We have chat and a gallery, like other places, but what othe place besides MSN gives you three megs of storage. We have a Personal Messaging system, customizable content (avatars, sig lines, etc), the latest industry news, a large inventory of item reviews, a new quote every day, the blurb fom this day in history, polls, surveys, campiagns, group builds, and the best model shop on the web; Sprue Brothers. (not to mention Model Bouw) Jim is working non-stop on new content all the time, as well as new features. I know of several good ones that Jim is looking into.

This isn't a simple site and it is not going to be. Does that affect profitability? Yes, for now. But when Armorama is the industry standard of the next generation, They will pay whatever Jim asks and do it willingly. That won't be for a little while. As for the big names, we have a few names, like Anders and Major Rob, but in twenty years we will have names like Shone_red and Airwarrior who, under our tutelage, became their generations Zaloga and Payne. Plus we will have sole advertising of the mutli million dollar a year corporaion Roo Industries featuring resin, PE, their own line of sexy swimwear!

I think this site will be bigger than anything we have seen in the industry, with more members, more content, and more features than anyone out there, but it will take time. We are only two years old! Give us five or six more years.

Rob (as he runs for cover)

Hi
I thought about this...
Why don't you open a Paypal acocunt and ask members/visitors to send you a fee, a donation.
I'm really sorry my english is not so good, i will try to explain...
I'm member of an italian "internet" community, the "leader" is always sending interesting and very very useful mails to members, he is always ready to help everybody...community is free, in his mails he just thanks people sending donations to him with Paypal (without saying how much, just the nickname).
I found this community really interesting and usefull, it would be really not a problem for me to send a monthly (yearly?) donation with Paypal...info i get from here are valued much more then donation!
Just my honest opinion....
take care
ciao
Luca

We've got that already... A_Guard

As I didn't intend that my previous comments should be construed as an attack on Twig, I have removed the post completely. The only comments I will make (in danger of going , ) is that the 'big' names on any site can be a real double-edged sword. Firstly they can create a group within a group and therefore stifling real debate or almost intimidating people against posting their work (in case it doesn't come up to their 'standards') Secondly, it can create a group of 'gurus' whom everyone else would defer to. The nice thing about this site is it has a level playing field, no-one should feel less-worthy than anyone else. BroAbrams is correct, this is a complex site. There are many different layers to it. Other sites have a simpicity which is initially attractive, but jades very quickly. There are nice (others may interpret them as silly) touches here. The avatars, the rank system, some of the forums may be construed (by those who wish to) as trivial or 'childish' few outsiders would consider getting worked-up about plastic mouldings as entirely serious ...Jim

I've been following this thread with interest even though I haveno idea of the technicalities and financial side of running a site like this. Firstly I think Twig was on the right lines in putting forward some of the thought processes behind potential advertisers, good comments well presented. Has anyone actually contacted kit manufacturers directly asking what they want from a site they advertise on?
Slightly off topic now but still on the financial side, there have been many posts on the forums with comments like "Great site, could I make a donation/why not have an anual subscrition? I'd gladly pay."
This does suggest the A-Guard scheme does need greater prominence as this is one way of helping with finances. There was one comment which stated "I joined even though I don't need the extra picture storage", could it be that people would rather give for nothing in return, rather than give and receive something they don't need?
I was browsing Modeling Madness and saw a link to donate towards the running of the site. As I use the site ocasionally I made a small donation, a couple of days later my name had been put up with a "Thanks for the donation" on the what's new thread. Maybe that is the way to go? It is certainly a nice surprise to see one's name published [ had no idea this would be done] and a boost to the ego, certainly it would encourage me to donate again when funds allow.
Just me putting a few thoughts across, hope no one minds :-)

I must read things differently to everybody else!
When I read the message from Twig, I felt he was talking about others in his local IPMS club. When I read the comments by some people after him , I felt they were pointing at the people Twig mentioned... not Twig. I would be annoyed if i felt somebody was picking on him because of his, what I feel are valid comments. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and choice of site, including those guys that Lee talks about.
I have heard of those guys .. through ML or military modelling, etc and admire their work, but I still prefer to hang out here, than there.
I personally like the friendly and helpful atmosphere here. In saying that, most people on ML are genuinally nice folk as well. Pity a few dick-heads make it uncomfartable for everybody. I would hate to see the format changing, for whatever reasons. This is a great site.... end of story. Patience is a virtue and will be rewarded .. some day!

Hi again guys...

mikeli125....first...many thanks on the CASTaCOAT......did you tell me/the dealer that is why you purchased...thats my only point really...

Re the Childish bit...
yep I think this could be the wrong word to use...so I retract it and change it to a fresher/younger aproach to design

...and thank god younger modelmakers are becomming more evidant ...it is a good trend that we ALL must surpport...it IS the future of the hobby, so maybe the site design is the future too.....Listen guys...a personal opion is not always a reason to avoid ...I don't...I am here after-all and spending some time trying when I could be earning a small crust, to offer my thoughts from 'inside the trade' as well as just a modelmaker..

two heads !!

and somtimes I get flack...but I would not spend the time on this thead/site if I did not care about it and its good works...
Two sites got the BrassAssit Roller set info first...and this was one of them...so good heath to it and I hope it works (PS..just spent out today on a web/link trackng/count software, so hint taken on that) ...and I do understand the need for funds to keep it going...let me think and plan...but I can tell you one thing the efforts and feelings as well as the strong surpport from within the site does give me some hope for the near future ..

But please...let the firms know when you order..it helps you/us/the firms

My .02 credits...

About the appearance of the site: I think the best way to describe the site is 'visual'. If I got to a webpage that's 90% text, with only blue underlined links to suggest more content, I won't stick around for long. I think web design, like modelbuilding, is a visual art from. Finding a balance between good visuals and good information is a must in good web pages. (a balance I think Jim has found)
If someone shuns the site because they think it has a 'cartoonish' or 'childish' air to it, it's thier loss.

As for advertising: Honestly, I ignore almost all online advertisements. Flashy animated banners, ugly banners, text links... And I close all popups immediately and with a vengence. If I want to buy something, it usually isn't because I see it in a web banner.
On the other hand, I am very much more likely to buy a product if I see a positive review of it on a website or in a magazine.
In my opinion, a 'combo deal' of ad banners and review samples is the best way to get me to buy something. First I read a positive review of a new kit, then I see it in an ad banner on the page. Five minutes and 15 clicks later, I've spent too money.

YM

What did you buy? I hope you didn't waste your money on WebTrends when there is much better free web stats software. Perhaps you can get a refund and use the money to advertise here?

Paul.

I sincerely apologize to Twig and any other board members if my post was perceived as an attack on anyone. I tend to get "emotional" about issues sometimes. My goal was to make the point that a website's credibility shouldn't be based on "big name players" being members. Over the years, I have seen content that I think is as good or better than what the big name people have done. I too am deleting my post. Conflict is the last thing I want to create and I apologize for my previous overly enthusiastic reply. As other members have rightly stated, Twig had great points that were valid.

Keep up the great work Jim.

Jim - how bout a Charge-per-click fee? I'd pay a dime everytime someone clicked my banner. Actually, I only have a budget of about $100 a month, so my plan was to do FineScale Modeler ads each quarter... but I'd also be willing to pay a minimal fee monthly $5.00 per month?) just to be a member here.

I have thought about this and it might be something I could do if I got the right software. Currently though our $50 banner ad rate is much less expensive that .10 per click-thru. SprueBros for instance has had over 2000 click-thrus since Nov 11. That's only 7 cents per click and their 3 months aren't even up yet.

Cheers,
Jim

Ok Jim... I'll give it a try.... sign me up for a $50 banner add ... bill via Paypal, and i will get to work on the banner add... email me with layout requrements and I will get it over to my art guy...

To me this is the best site for information I've found, you have a great wealth of talent here, and I try to help if I can, but it has been mostly a learning experience for me, now I was in a totaly different line of business then this, but the trends are the same, when you have your competition saying they are not worried about you, that means they are, or other wise they wouldn't have said anything at all, everything here is what I look for in a site, all of you been doing a great job, and I sent your address to this art supply house telling them they have a lot to offer to modeling, and that this would be a great place to advertise, that they never realized we use soft pastels, acrylic paints, brushes, plus a tremendous amount of other things in their sells. I hope they come and look, it would be to both of your benifits.
I hope you never haft to change a thing. Many thanks for being here. Straightedge

hmmm seems like what I'm reading is that Armorama is too Childish and Fun for any 'serious' advertiser to want to participate...

Now let me see.. the other Sites like TrackLink, MissingLinks, Aircraft Resource Center, Hyperscale.. I visit them once a day... in that order.. awsome sites...

Armorama... I hang out in all night! (and it seems like a lot of others do too!)... hmmm I wonder which site is one that an Advertiser should concentrate on showing their product on..

Being a former marketing manager I will enter my $0.02.

1) I would have thought it more obvious. If I were a business why should I pay $50/month to advertise when I can just start a thread with a few pics of a professionally built model? Everyone will ask where that came from and I will simply refer to the banner in my sig line which is free. As more people start using my products I just make sure to monitor and make sure the kit name and my company name is mentioned. If I introduce a new item I can post it myself. with a picture of a professional model. I can write it in such a way not to seem like an advertisment. A URL will get people to my business website just as easily as a $50/month banner. Sooer or later my company name and products will become commonplace on the site with other members actually referring newbies to my website

2) This site has to decide what direction it wants to go. If it wants to cater to the hobbyist then you don't need names like Zaloga or Volstad. That being said, advertisers may shy away from a site with no recongnizable participants. However if you are trying to gain advertisers you will need some tacit endorsments of your product. Remember you have to give advertisers a reason or a need to spend money on your site. Just off the top of my head I can think of Zaloga, Volstad, the head or Warrior Models (I forgot his name but he personally answered a question once via email) and Formations' Rob Earvin that regularly respond at Missing Links.


3) I don't know if Armorama.com promotes itself to draw more people or make itself better known. Some people have mentioned that some of their model building colleagues do not know about Armorama.com. By building the brand name Armorama.com you can perhaps start to attract the advertisers that Armorama.com equates to a quality site for model builders and a potential bonanza for business. MIssing Link has aligned itself with Osprey Publications and Tamiya to build brand recognition.

My experience tells me that a quality site is not enough for advertisers. It must also have validity and recognition. Hope this helps your pursuits.

Dear Jim,

I would just like to say, that I believe you are doing a phenomenal job. My homepage for Internet Explorer is ARMORAMA.COM. It is the first website I look at and the last I see before I go to work or to bed. I am not an advertiser, I am not a model manufacturer, I am not a big name in the model world (well, in my little world I am :-) ), I am not a small company trying to get the word out about my product, I am not one of the high-falutin' big wigs over at IPMS (but I am still a member :-) ).........I am just a guy who likes to model AFV's.

I work full-time as the Director of Entertainment for a nationwide Adult Entertaintment Corporation. I work Wednesday through Saturday at about 56 hours and on 2 of my off days I sometimes work about 12 more hours. I personally do not care about getting recognition from being a member of this wonderful site. I am a member because I ENJOY the hobby. I personally would be willing to donte money to Armorama every month. My plate is full with work and family, like a lot of guys on here. I want to be a part of something that is rewarding for me. I truly do not care if the Zalogas's or Volstads's of the modeling community like or approve of my work (not to say that it would not be nice). As long as I am happy with my work, well that is all that matters.

I understand that this site is your "baby" and that you want to see it grow and I understand that you want to get some of the BIG GUYS to advertise here. I truly understand all of this. If you are truly dedicated to the progression of this site in the world of modeling, well, I am behind you 200%...no make that 1000%. I for one, enjoy everything about this site. From the "childish" avatars and sigs to the rank system.

In closing I would like to add, that although some of the other "big" sites have the "big" names, who know how to professionally make a model, we here at Armorama are blessed to have true EXPERTS. Guys like Robby G. (Sabot), Jim Lewis (Gunnie), Pawel (Vodnick), Toni (Envar), Keith Magee (KFMagee), GreyWolf (Dangit, this guy is a doctor!), Frank G. (PlasticBattle), Steve K. (WeWillHold), Brian D. (Tin_Can, who is an officer in the US Navy).....these are just some of the BIG name I look forward to reading about (and of course you, Jim )

My 2 pennies!
"Of course that;s just my opinion...I could be wrong"

p.s. I will be making donations to this site from time to time. Thanks ,Jim, for all your hard work