From my untrained eye it seems that about 3/4 of all AFV's (WWII era) are german.
Is there any specific reason why? (Just curious thats all)

Cheers

i dont really know mate, it seems that many people are obsessed by the mythos of german WW2 subjects particularly SS.
although i do like building german afv's, figures etc, i dont like the obsession with it. i feel these people and machines should be remembered for what they were, instruments of oppresion and genocide.
personally i find that allied subjects are more appealling, the thought of those men and machines fighting and dying for a cause that was so morally right and just is the thing that should be remembered more, and i hope my interest and models in some small way contribute to keeping that memory at the forfront of my mind
cheers
joe

Joe makes a valid point, however, I doubt very much that politics plays much of a role in the average modelers choice of kits to buy. The fact is that German subjects are so numberous both in real history and in model kits they outweigh their allied counterparts by probably five to one. If I built allied vehicles exclusively I think it would drive me out of the hobby because I'd be bored out of my mind painting all that green. I like the visual variety of all those different vehicles and the different camo patterns/colors.

you also make a valid point grifter, but i meant the people who are genuinely obsessed with german subjects rather than modellers as a whole.
i dont exclusively model allied subjects, i agree to much olive drab would put anyone off, i build models of any nationality and my choices are normally based on what i think looks good, or what i would like to add to my collection.
i was commenting on the probably small number of people who will build nothing but german kits, using the so-called mythos of the german war machine as thier justification
cheers
joe

IMHO I think that it's a matter of variety and variants. There are just plain more 'things' to model. Allied armor was very light in overall variation.
If you look at the aircraft model market you see a huge variety of allied kits while the German variety is weaker. This is simply the 'flip' of the armor side. Allieds had more variety and thus more subjects to create kits from.

I believe it is a vicious circle. German kits sell, so the model companies make more German kits, which sell, so they keep making more. I think this also explains why companies come out with Allied armor, like French tanks, and package them with German markings to show them as captured.

hi for me it's real simple

i only have one sherman and a steward tank and that's it, te reason it are wo 2 icons, same as most of the german tanks

but just take a look at all the german tanks, panzerwagons, moters, inventions etc etc and i' sure you will see the design is nicer and cooler to make a model out of it

like the leopold or V2, V1 rockets it's so cool to have them in scale 1/35

that's my personal view

greetzzz

dmd

I think it basically boils down to variety. For example, if you just built German halftracks, how many different variants are there from the Sd Kfz 250 through 253? You could make that a hobby in itself. Lump that in with variations in cammo and we have a career right there...

Just my .02

Shaun

fair point but why spend all your time building different variants of the same vehicle, fair enough if theres major differences(shermans etc) but most german vehicle variants only have small cosmetic differences( different wheels, oooohhhh )
i suppose at the end of the day everyone is entitled to their own opinions and it wouldnt do for us all to be the same but it would be nice to have bit of variety wouldnt it?

and after all who won the war!
cheers
joe

Don't get me wrong, I build everything. Last three models I bought were a Tamiya Grant and Stuart (both on sale) and the Tumpeter M1 with the mine plow. I was just pointing out that there is a wide variety of German WW2 vehicles.

Cheers,

Shaun

I guess different people look at differences in different ways. I don't see any major differences between different Sherman models. Upswept return rollers, dished roadwheels, different gun, welded or cast hull, etc.... These are all cosmetic differences in my opinion. It is still the same base tank. With allied forces you don't have the variety of DIFFERENT vehicles. The Germans had PzKpfw 1, 2, 3 and 4 tanks, along with assult gun (and artillery) variations of each of these vehicles. Panthers, Tigers, and Tiger II's, each had an assult gun or artilery version. To me these are very different vehicles. This doesn't even take into account the subtle differences within the same model of which you speak (road wheels, etc.). The Sherman 105 howitzer is essentially the same vehicle as a 75, just a different gun.

It all boils down to what you like to build. I particularily like to built open topped fighting vehicles - there are just more German subjects to pick from. I don't build German stuff exclusively by any means, it's just that I prefer these vehicles and they happen to be German.

Jeff

Hi Scott

I'm not sure if that's strictly true, because the same question has been asked about the predominance of German subjects in aircraft categories. Just look at the Battle of Britain campaign... and I plead guilty for building a Bf 109!! :-)

I don't know what the fascination is, I try to buy a variety of aircraft... but, somehow, those German planes keep sneeking back onto the work-desk...

All the best

Rowan

I myself is just starting to build my first WWII tank, it's a Panzer IV. For me I think why many modelers choose German subjects is because of as you guys said, the variety. Who would not get sick of seeing Olive drab on every vehicle he has built? Another thing is that maybe German tanks are simply more "Handsome" than Allied tanks. Look at the King Tiger, compare it to the Sherman & the Churchill, doesn't the King Tiger look better?

Well for me its sort of a heritage kinda thang. My great grandfather was related to a German soldier that went missing in the city of Stalingrad. And, also because a big portion of me is German.
I am particularly interested in the SS. Because of their outstanding bravery, and "fight to the death" attitude that most carried into combat with them. True, they were plagued by bad self image in certain spots, but then again they were they elite of Germany. They were simply fighting for a view that they believed in, much like American Rangers or Airborne then, they fought for their beliefs to.

Greatbrit, expand on the "instruments of oppression and genocide" sentance. I would like to hear what you mean.

~Chip

I like the variaety of german tanks!!! The allies went with basicaly one design for everything. I stand by my beleif of if you built one sherman you built all of them!!!! Think about just the SPG's feilded off the PZ IV, or all jagdpanzers designs there were and you get your answer!! STUG

getting away from AFV,si like to build ww1 aircraft andup to now they have been mostly german, mostly because the colour schemes are a real challenge (lozenge anybody?)compared to the allies,(olive drab top/linen underside) also its fair to say the fokker triplane is an icon i.e. instantly recognisable to almost everyone. i feel the same is true for ww2 aircraft, spitfire/109 schemes for instance. and the germans got the award for most easily recognisable plane in that war as well, in the stuka

I pretty much build everything when it comes to AFV. But WW2 I have to agree, German is by far much more enjoyable. As has been said by several. US had 4 major types, British 3 or 4 (not too familiar with theirs), but the Germans had 7 totally different tank types, 4 totally different assault gun types, and they used a much wider selection of camoflauge schemes.

Hi again

almonkeys got a point... the German colour schemes do generally offer a lot more variety and hence, challenge, than most Allied aircraft (yes I know there's always exceptions).

I build mostly aircraft, am British (and proud of it), but have to admit that our planes were generally pretty dull (in terms of colour-scheme variations) in comparison with their German counterparts...

All the best

Rowan

Just compare modern armor to a WW2 German tank. Let's say an M1 Abrams. It has been in use for roughly 20 years in one way, shape or form, but there are still only a half dozen variants and about the same amount of camouflage schemes.

Now look at the PzKpfw IV. It was used for about one quarter the length of time the Abrams tank was, about 5-6 years give or take (maybe more with some post war foreign use). That thing has more variations than the Abrams and the camouflage schemes are almost endless.

It's got to be the variety. Build one NATO or desert sand Abrams, they all basically look the same. And this is coming from an old M1 tanker.

Exactly Sabot...

That doesn't even take into account all of the assult gun variations built from the various tank chassis..

Jeff

Oh, boy. Someone should write a psychiatric thesis on why model makers make more models of German subjects than all others, and why people build them.

For the newbie, I think it's a matter of availability and what catches their eye. It's weird, it's from the dark side (Nazi), it's got an exotic name (Sd. Kfz. XXX, Neu Beobachtungspanzerschlepper IV Ausf. C... ), it's in every hobby shop, it's angular like modern armor ...

And the average person -- including many in uniform -- can't tell a tank from a self-propelled howitzer from an infantry fighting vehicle from a tank destroyer from a jagdpanzer from a sturmgeschuetz. It looks cool, so they buy it and assemble it, per kit instructions.

To the uninitiated, the humble M4 Sherman, on the other hand, must be dorky. There's one parked in front of the local VFW, for cripes sake. (That's because it was on the side that won. Most panzers and their lot went to the scrap yard and were turned into steel to rebuild Europe. That's why they now have to recover them from bogs in Ukraine and Russia.)

"It's boring old OD green." "The only difference between a 105mm howitzer tank and a 75mm gun tank is the gun."

Give me a break. Comments like these only show that you haven't researched U.S. vehicles. It's all what you are interested in. I used to build lots of German (and still do, occasionally), but then I got my hands on Hunnicutt's Sherman book. I was ready to go "Beyond out of the box," and this was my ticket. I could build nothing but M4 Sherman and M3 Grant/Lee variants the rest of my life and never be able to do them all.

Again, it's all what you are interested in and, in my case, a bit of economics. I do not make a lot of money, so I prefer to concentrate my reference money in one area (it's like when you had to write an essay in school and the teacher told you to narrow your thesis). For me, that area is U.S. AFVs and softskins of WWII. Sure, I have some other references -- I just chose not to join the "Panzer book of the week Club" that is very, very possible if you let it happen.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I suppose it comes down to patriotism or nationalism. I have lots of relatives and friends who either fought in WWII or worked in the factories in WWII.

I'll never forget one display I attended with my model club at a mall. We had all kinds of models on the tables: cars, planes, tanks, figures, ships, dinosaurs, etc. The idea was to show variety. I noticed a couple old-timers looking over our collection of military vehicles and one was shaking his head. I asked what he thought and if he had any questions. He replied, "I thought we won." and walked away shaking his head. I looked down at the table and saw a couple dozen German vehicles (Tigers, Panthers, StuGs, Schwimmwagens, Kubels, etc.) and a handful of U.S./Allied vehicles (jeeps, peeps and a Sherman or two). A glance at the figure table wasn't much better: some sci-fi and fantasy figures with a half-dozen 120mm Germans towering over them all. Frankly, I was ashamed.

I think there is a lot more to this hobby when you've been in it for a while. There is a responsibility. I could give a fiddler's fart about the "ethos of the SS" -- they were murderers at Malmedy, Buchenwald and scores of other places. Somehow they ain't so "cool" anymore. I surely won't ignore they existed -- but I refuse to give them or any other Axis forces more than a representative display in my model cases.

Initially I would have to agree with the idea that the Germans offer more variety, I mean if you really get down to it, the Allies used the Sherman, all others besides the T-34 were also rans, at least in numbers. But while reading through the posts, the Allied tanker side of me (I'm building a Cromwell and a KV-2 right now) said hey wait-a-minute, we also have:

US
Sherman (several minor variations), plus DD (amphib), ARV, M7 Priest, Kangaroo, and Rocket launching platforms (how many swimming tanks did the Germans build?).

M3 Lee / Grant (several minor variations), plus M7 Priest, ARV

M26 Pershing

M3 / M5 Stuart (several minor variations), M3 Satan, M8 HMC, Stuart Recce

M22 Locust

M24 Chaffee

M10 (several minor variations)

M18 Hellcat, open top APC / Gun tractor (designation escapes me)

M36

M3 Scout car

M8 / M20 AC

M2 / M3 Halftrack (minor variants), plus several SP guns, mortar carriers, AA variants etc

LVT(A)-1, 2 & 4 (How many tracked amphibs did the Germans build?)

Bunch of soft skins and SP guns

UK
Vickers Light Tank (several variations)

Cruiser (several variations)

Crusader

Centaur / Cromwell

Challenger / Avenger

Comet (ok, these are kind of a variation on a theme)

Matilda (several variations)

Valentine (several variations)

Churchill (several variations)

Bishop

Archer

Sexton

The various "funnies".

A horde of armored cars

Lots of soft skins and SP guns, plus those SAS / LRDG trucks and Jeeps.


The Soviets probably double those already listed (unfortunately I'm not as familiar wth the Soviet stuff as I am with US / UK) but you've got:

T-34
KV-1
KV-2 (now that's a turret)
T-35 (How many turrets can you fit on a tank?)
T-28
BT-5 / 7
T-26
IS2
IS3
Packs of light tanks
Swarms of SP AT and Assault guns

Some weird armored cars (but lots of character)

Again a bunch of soft skins and assorted SP guns.

Now I would have to agree with painting, the Germans certainly seemed to crank out paint schemes, then you have zimmeret and I have to admit many of the German vehicles have a nice look to them. The Allied armor may not top the Germans for variations but there is certainly more than just Shermans out there. There also are quite a few interesting French, Italian and Japanese AFVs but you don't see many of these either. I think size must be part of it, not much compares in size to the various Panther and Tiger variants (did I mention the KV-2?). It also might go to the movies, most of us grow up on WW2 movies and you never see people running from Shermans (well actually sometimes you do but they are supposed to be Germans ), but the scene with the Americans freaking out when they see Tigers is common. So Shermans are boring Tigers are cool.

HollowPoint,

Asking in a neutral stance, could you please explain the responsibility that we have?

True, the SS executed P.OW.s near the town of Malmedy.
The SS also helped in some cases too. Infact the 2 SS Das Reich helped many civilians escape from a town (Forgot which one, I will have to check my referances again) that the Red Army was advancing on. And, they also punched a hole through the Cherkassey Pocket so many stranded German infantrymen could get out.

And, I am glad that your a Packer fan! So am I!

~Chip



:-)

I think because a modeller want to do a model of the best armor in the reality, so in the ww2 the best tanks were German, in the cold war Ussr or Usa and now only Usa. I think isn't for politics,or only someone.
regards

wowww hollowpoint

it should be fun making what ever you want.

not nationalism.....

that I make a tiger tank doesnt mean that I support what ever they tought back then

and offcourse the ss did bad things, but remember the usa doesnt only have clean hands.

I think you are going a bit far in yr statement it should be fun 2 make models

and offcourse we won.

everyone knows that.....

but then again everyone has the right 2 say what they want so.