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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
New Breed of Modeller ?
IanSadler
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:16 AM UTC
hi all , have you noticed that there seems to be a new breed of model maker the nit picker who finds fault with every book, model , colour of paint , just about anything he can moan about he will. these never show us their models or any original research or tips . they just jump before even a kit has been released by slagging it off , this was a topic of convertation at the weekend at a uk model show , any takers . cheers ian
GunTruck
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:36 AM UTC
Yep - I believe we were talking about this type last week - "rivet counter" and "Mr. Know-it-All"...

With the Internet - this individual now has global reach and the power to annoy anyone, anytime, anywhere

Gunnie

(P.S. - I modified this topic's title to read: "Breed")
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:43 AM UTC
Ian, I couldn't agree more with you. There are clowns out there who spend their entire sad, twisted, pathetic little lives looking for every little imperfection. Modelling is an art, not a totally 100% faithful reproduction of every little blemish on a model or every misplaced comma in a book.

However there are genuine grounds for some complaints, I find it really sad when a modeller like Ronald Kok, expresses his frustration at the lack of finish on a mega-expensive production like AA's wrecker. When you buy a model like that, the least you expect is a good fit of parts, concise instructions, obviously you need a bit of ability to construct it, a model like that goes into the expert category. The practice of this constant recycling of old kits (not at a recycled price of course) constantly annoys me as well, we all know that building a new master is ruinously expensive however, re-boxing is getting positively tiresome....

This is potentially a very interesting topic, it's also great to blow off steam now and again.... Jim
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:51 AM UTC
Ian What you said about this New breed of modelers that`s what Jeff Herne from Modelwarships.com writes a lot about. He calls them mutants. I post here an article that fits exactly from him that fits exactly to this thread read it and laugh
More of Jeff Hernes articles can be found at www.modelwarships.com look leftunder for the editorials and you get "from the other side of the workbench

Have pleasure with the article and I can recommend all of his other articles as they are hilarious


Mutants and Women in Thongs…


Have you ever noticed that regardless of how good a modeler you are, that there’s ALWAYS someone better? While I personally don’t have a problem with anyone who is better than me, I do take issue with those who THINK they are better, smarter, faster, prettier…well, ok, faster.

We all know these modelers, they’re in your local clubs and at shows, complaining, nit-picking and nay-saying your model, but never bringing anything of their own to back up their overdeveloped egos and matching yappers.

I have a twisted sense of satisfaction by making these bozos look like the true idiots they are… ”Rant rant babble babble…and when the Bismarck was sunk in 1942 the Germans should have…” Hey moron, Bismarck was sunk 1941, and she wasn’t torpedoed mistakenly by a U-boat in the Indian Ocean. You‘ve spent far too much time watching JAG and re-runs of “What if Germany won the war” on the History Channel. How about going home and superglueing your face to Bob Ballard’s ‘Discovery of the Bismarck’ book?? When the osmosis is complete and you can speak fluent German, come see us.

By and large, these folks who are so engrossed with their own self-importance eventually go away, either ending up floating face down in their swimming pools, or eventually fall victim to the rabid guilt that pervades their being, because inevitably, they know they can’t compete, and they know they’re IQ is something akin to a half-eaten day old jelly donut. A few mutants however, actually build something, and this simply adds fuel to the fire…these are the ones you need to look out for…

My recommendation? When you see a mutant, you have several options…you can run, but your models can’t. It is your responsibility to defend them, after all, they are part of your very being.

The best advice is to find another a mutant and instigate an argument… I call this the ‘Sledgehammer Diplomacy Option. “Did you hear what he said about the 101st Airborne???” Your mutant will rush off to defend his opinion, hopefully leaving you alone for awhile.

I prefer the Counter-Intelligence Option, which is very effective of you have the ability to, or choose to, out-think your mutant… Mutants are typically brash and overbearing, and very opinionated. Select a topic of conversation that you know he’s weak in, and attack mercilessly. “Hey Mutant, where’s your model? I ‘m just about finished with the 1/12 scale Tamiya Williams FW-14B car, you know the one that Nigel Mansell drove? Lemme ask your opinion, what type of Kevlar pattern did the car have just behind the active suspension computer during the Monaco GP in 1992? ” Uhhhh…. And just before he’s ready to answer, whether he knows the answer or not, hit him again… “ I went to Formula One Specialties, that great shop on the ‘net, and I got the new M2 seatbelt kit, and was finally able to get the new Studio 27 McLaren MP4/5B, man…what a kit. Hey, do you know if they used the Type 1 or Type 2 rear wing at the Italian GP in ’89??” By this time, your mutant should be looking for an escape route… uhhh…listen I gotta run, I’ll talk to you later on… and off he goes, leaving you alone for the remainder of the day…and you can bet he’s probably going to leave you alone anytime you mention Formula One racing…

The simplest option is what I call the Fart Option…yes, I’ve done this, and it works… Find your target mutant…wait for the right moment, preferably when he’s babbling about the proper FS number for the interior of the air intakes on a pre-Falklands Argentine Mirage fighter. Wait until he’s actively involved…walk up, rip, and leave…or, if you’re daring, walk up, rip, and blame it on him immediately…

Mutants aren’t the only thing that really tick me off…models do too… all kinds of models…ships, armor, aircraft…anything that looks like it should be climbed into and started. I sometimes sit and wonder as I’m building my _______________, how in the world do they do that??? Trust me…I’ve tried, and I just can’t do it.

I have a theory. This theory is very believable if you a.) hit yourself repeatedly in the forehead with a ball peen hammer, b.) think that Elvis is still alive or c.) believe that the world is still flat and you can fall off the edge if you’re not careful…

Anyway, back to the theory…have you ever seen those swimsuit models on Sports Illustrated, ya know, the perfect ones??? Well, I believe these women are the ones who build those perfect models… I figured this out because those women aren’t human, they’re aliens…so, all those planes and tanks and ships that went MIA over the years are actually REAL machines that these aliens (in thongs) miniaturized…

Excuse me for a moment while I inflict another ball peen hammer blow to my forehead….

Have you ever completed a model, only to find ONE unidentifiable part left in the box? You search the instructions, the parts list, and even the model itself, yet you find nothing…not a single reference. That really ticks me off, so I’ve decided to build a model from all those leftover parts. I think it’s going to be a sci-fi model when it’s done!!

Well, it’s getting late, and my mind has informed me that ‘Shutdown is Inevitable’. I can’t think anymore, and I’m too tired to be ticked off at anything other than myself, because I just killed 2 hours and countless brain cells, when I should have been building a model!!

Jeff Herne

MAJMTC
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 05:55 AM UTC
This is my first time posting. I can tell you that the "rivet counters" serve a real function. They make guys like me feel intimidated if I didn't have an "exact" replica and force me to avoid showing my models. I understand the need to be accurate, but then again, I understand this is a hobby. The moment that it becomes a chore I am outta here, heading for a cold one. Might even try fishing if it suits me. My plan - continue to march and have fun.

My humble opinion.

Mark
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:06 AM UTC
MAJMTC

First of all welcome on board dude

Never and I say never be intimidated by people who say your models stink/suck or whatever they say.. Kep in mind that you are building for only one person in teh world and that is you. You are building for your own sattisfaction.. Unless you built and sell tem to people but mostly they have seen your work and are satisfied with that.... I for myself built and show it a lot and happily I get some good comments and critics nothing really special but I have had a couple of times that there was a terrible gnome at the hobbyshop who told me everything and I say really everything was wrong with it. I asked him to show his stuff and he ran away then... I never listen to that kind of people.. Best way to get rid of those guys is simply ignore them turn around and search for somebody that is more interesting. on the internet you simply don`t reply to their posts regarding your vehicle/dio/figure/ whatever

Just my two cents bout these Gnomes of modeling

Puma112
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:07 AM UTC
ALLCON,

I have to agree. SOMEtimes, there is a little room for complaint, like when the pin marks are sink holes on every mold of the kit! But if you do not like it, don't buy it. I think this new breed is not only in the modeling community either...I get mail from them every day. It seems like a sad state of affairs when this happens and just the bad show up. We need to bring in new kids who build and let their minds grow with the wonders of building, not what is correct in the rivet count. I have had the opportunity Numerous times to count the EXACT number of rivets in/on the tail of a B-52. Think I have taken the time to see the number was right on the last model? Who has that kind of time? If you have this kind of time, then build more models, get more people involved, get your kids doing them. And get off this negitive kick PLEASE!!

Thanks and have a wonderful day!
keenan
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:07 AM UTC
Faust, I think you ought to do the spare parts sci fi thing. The starship "Extrapiecious IV" Thanks for the article. One note: After you "rip" glance around and say, "Man, that model smells like $%#."

Shaun
Bodeen
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:11 AM UTC
:-) A-M-E-N!!!!!!!!!!! I build models to please me. After I have competed a model i get a feeling of satisfaction and then the desire to move on and complete another. As there are thousands of good artists and only a few Rembrandts and Picassos out there, so it is with modellers. The more time and effort you devote the better you will become. I have about three hours a week to devote to actually building. Therefore i am not as advanced as someome who has more time or does it as his/her occupation. It doesn't mean that i don't have the same enthusiasm for my hobby...I'm just not as good. I'm all for constructive criticism..when asked for...but my momma always told me..."If you don't have someting nice to say don't say anything at all!" Bottom line is....I build for myself...not for the so called rivet counters. I guess some people get a kick out of destroying others self esteem. The nice thing about Armorama is that you dont get a lot of that unless you go to the Rivet Review Board..and even then it's mostly constructive criticism. Jeff
Potroast
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:14 AM UTC
My response may be beyond the scope of the original post and if it is I apologize...I just have to comment and get this off of my chest.

While I was at Scalefest in Mesquite, TX I was watching the kids build models and some guy was pointing out things they did wrong and his tone and attitude just got all over me. I should've told him to shut up but didn't...and Ian bringing this topic up just caused me to think about it again. These people tend to needlessly criticize other people's work and I'm afraid that this is one thing that will either turn people away from the craft or keep their work in the closet for fear of unnessecary criticism from a super detail freak.

As modellers, one of our goals is to recreate an object or scene in detail and to make it as realistic as possible, but these super detail freaks can easily take the wind out of someone's sails by bashing a piece as a whole because "That thing had more rivets" or "That color is wrong so the whole thing isn't that good" (I've seen it happen - especially at shows - and I actually get steamed when I hear it.) Constructive criticism is good and it helps a person learn and grow into their craft...but too much is too much. One thing I like about Armorama is that I've never seen it happen here.

As technical as scale modelling is, I still consider it more of an art than anything else. We create realistic miniature representations for our own enjoyment and to please other people. One thing these people need to realize is that whether it's a kit in a shrinkwrapped box or a completed kit or diorama there will be a point where you can't make everything perfect and artistic license has to be taken into account.

Again...pardon the rant.

Edit: Welcome MAJMTC! Be sure to sign up and join the fun! A better group of people you'll never meet!
GunTruck
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:16 AM UTC
Oh my Gawd! He didn't actually write about "The Fart Option" did he?!? #:-)

Jeff Herne's tomes are great reading - and illustrate a simple point - relax! These guys won't get to you if you don't let them. Like Faust pointed out - find a different bunch to hang around with, or, entertain yourself with torturing these types if so inclined, but don't bust a gut over their antics.

Gunnie
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:21 AM UTC
Shaun

I really love the Articles of Jeff Herne he writes so super cool and in a weird way a lot of it is true.. Anybody who sees this thread I really recommend reading the articles talked about here you will really have a good day when you have done it. I like the "All modelers are weird except for shipmodelers" wich is posted here before and the story, that is some kind of part two of this story, "In defense of the realm" wich is a story about a guy who wrote a hatemail to jeff herne after reading "All modelers are weird"

And I sure want to see the Starship extrapiecious IV too would be an amazing built

Delbert
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:21 AM UTC
Hello all

I can attest that the new breed is out there lurking and just ready to pounce... I personaly build my models OOB "out of box", and I only add little things to make them uniquely mine. I have found there are people out there who take great joy in jumping on any little thing that they don't find accuracte. I will say I build for myself and not them. end of story.

Here are a couple of ways to get em to pounce on your model.

1) build a slightly dusty but fairly clean armored vehicle... for some reason it seems that some think there is a rule that all armored vehicles must be covered in mud.

2) Build a tank with tracks that are not rusty. another unwritten rule seems to be all tank tracks must be completely rusty.

3) Build anything straight out of the box.. no matter how well built or painted there will be something wrong with the kit that someone will tell you you should have corrected it first..

End of rant.
Marty
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:22 AM UTC
Faust, oh man! Sarcasm, sarcasm and more sarcasm. I love the way this guy writes. He should publish a book. Good stuff.
GunTruck
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

1) build a slightly dusty but fairly clean armored vehicle... for some reason it seems that some think there is a rule that all armored vehicles must be covered in mud.

2) Build a tank with tracks that are not rusty. another unwritten rule seems to be all tank tracks must be completely rusty.

3) Build anything straight out of the box.. no matter how well built or painted there will be something wrong with the kit that someone will tell you you should have corrected it first..



I think this would be the start of a great thread: The Unwritten Rules of Armor Modeling

Gunnie
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:37 AM UTC
I guess I swing both ways when dealing with rivet counters. Some IPMS buddies who are extremely talented builders visited my motor pool the other day. After climbing on most of the equipment, one jokingly commented that the paint jobs on real equipment would be tore up at a contest. We all had a good laugh regarding the overspray, the paint on the road wheel rubber and the numerous runs and drips.

Some stuff that is missed is pretty simple. For instance, in this month's Fine Scale Modeler, there is a real nice weathering article about the M1A1 Abrams with mine plow. The builder did a great job, but missed some very easy details that there are plenty of references about. For one, in the photo of the road wheel weathering, the builder leaves the road wheel hubs painted sand. Anyone who took the time to look at a close up of M1 hubs would see they are clear plastic. Additionally the builder paints the loader's skate ring sand instead of leaving it natural steel colored. Does it detract from the article on weathering? No, he does a superb job. Does it make me doubt the builder's M1A1 knowledge? Sure it does.

But then again, I have been known to build a plane, German WW2 or USMC armor piece straight out of box without care as to whether or not it is painted or marked correctly. I just like to build stuff and really don't care what people think about it. I'm the only one I need to impress.
csch
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 06:43 AM UTC
Ian:

This happens in a lot of activities not only in our hobby. Always you will find people that their only interest is to find errors and missings in the jobs of the others. The best way to deal with them is to identify when someone of these people appears, don´t feel angry with his comments and keep on with our hobby. Normally it´s difficult to see one of their jobs.

Happy modeling to every one of the nice people of Armorama
brandydoguk
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 07:27 AM UTC
I think all the guys have the right attitude here, build what you want how you want, I do. When I show my models to anybody I welcome their criticisms if they are constructive. That's why I enjoy this site so much, the guys who are able to put their kits up for people to look at are practically guaranteed the right type of response. Most of the time when there are comments they point out the positives and if there are any criticisms they are usualy followde by advice on how to improve these things. This is the best site on the web to learn things about the hobby.
thebear
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 08:45 AM UTC
This is an interesting subject ...I have been modelling for over 30 yrs now ...I had a bout with AMS for a while but have come back almost to the point of building out of the box...I have neve been a "rivit counter "but at the same time I do like to know a bit about the kit I am building ...I think that if you build for yourself than fine and dandy ....if you build for shows well descide what category you are going into and build to what is expected....ie : if doing out of the box ,well then build it that way ..conversions well more work and more to be judged on ...I for one have found great pleasure in building out of the box for the last 2 years ,if someone says hey this is wrong and that is wrong well all I say is that's whats in the box ..I still think there are a few things that should be done right ...like not putting a Jadgtiger in the same dio as a panzer 1(without a picture to back it up of course) and no panzerIV Js in the Africakorp...but if you put a panzerIII L at Stalingrad I can,t say you are right or wrong...I think it is our place as people with more experience to point out mistakes done by others ...I think it is all in the way you say it ....I find sometimes that I seem to always point out mistakes but I always hope it is taken to improve the next kit and not as putting a person down ..If I have ever hurt anyones feeling please reread what I have said and take it as constructive and not destructive!! If we don't show where you made mistakes how will you know...not better to keep going on making the same mistake..

Richard
GunTruck
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 09:33 AM UTC
Richard brings up a good point - it is difficult to know when your suggestions are not being taken in the spirit intended. Not everyone tries to be a bu**head when giving constructive criticism - but it can come out the wrong way. This prevents some with good ideas from speaking up.

Some people do try to be a wizeacre - and that shows. It seems these people don't mind giving you criticism - whether you want it or not and they don't appear to give a whit about your feelings in the process.

Then, there are some curious people who only want advice from whom they perceive as "peers" - modelers along equal lines of experience, or lesser. I've run into this group too. This is a difficult area, for you never know when to offer a suggestion, so some will offer opinions and others will refrain. What to do in this instance?

Gunnie
Arthur
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 09:44 AM UTC
I know what each and every one means,i have on occasion,had the odd run in with the rivet counters,but after thirty or more years painting it's water off a ducks back,i,like everybody makes the odd booboo,and respond well to honest critique,but i will not be lectured,by some dick who's work i have not seen,but just in case a dick is lurking,let them tell me the following image is not the Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry,Piskie Division(private).
Arthur
Bribo
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 10:16 AM UTC
I would have to agree that there are some out there also. I've just started model ing again after about 15 years ( that seems to be the required break, for some reason), and I got really discouraged by some reviews and articles I read, that the "Tamiya (or Academy, or whatever) is an ok model, if you add the metal tracks, and the aber kit, and the metal barrel, and the cavalier zimmerti and the.. blah, blah, yada, yada. I started to feel like, man, I have to do all these things if I want to build a decent kit. And believe me, some of those things are way over my head, think Aber.
I finally realized, hey, I just want to build a nice looking Tiger tank, or M-10, and enjoy it! Maybe later, I'll start the super detailing again, cause its fun, but I need to work on my skills first, and have fun. Sometimes, at least for me, it's easy to get lost in the things that don't matter as much, and miss the forest for the trees.
didiumus
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 12:07 PM UTC
Bribo,

Bottom line: This is supposed to be a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun. Don't let anyone, even modeling geeks, make you lose your passion or your enjoyment for the hobby. I frequently build kits using aftermarket, but I also frequently build ootb.

Take them all with a grain of salt. In my opinion, this is one of the best modeling forums on the Internet as far as tone and support. Other modeling sites are much more intense and combatative.

HTH,

Scott
animal
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 12:29 PM UTC
I go with Gunnie. I have learned a heap of techniques from young and old here on this site. I applaud the constructive advise that I have received from the majority of our members. I have felt intimidated a couple of times when I first joined Armorama. But heck blow off the negitive types. They can't win any arguments by them selfs. It takes two to argue. Thanks to all the members for the help we receive from each other. Gunnie, staff Jim and Kencelot our modirators are tops.
Red4
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 04:37 PM UTC
Oh how I can relate to this thread.. I love to hear the "Experts" views on a subject. Having spent 20+ years either on around armor I know a good deal about it. Notice I said a good deal and not everything. I find it amusing to listen in to the experts describe how this is wrong and that they didnt do this with this paricular variant. At some point I'll ask how much time he had served with this particular piece of equipment as he obviously knows it inside and out....The looks are priceless. At that point is when I'll smile and just walk away....
Who remembers their first diorama? Usually it was monsterous and had no rhyme or reason but hey, it was cool. Tanks and planes and guys everywhere doing all sorts of things. I had a new modeller come to our monthly club meeting and he brought his first diorama with him and it happened to be one of those bigguns I described earlier. While it left alot to be desired as far as "contest" goes I appluaded him for even undertaking it. I didnt bash him, or point out what was wrong. I just let him have his moment and bask in the limelight because it was the biggest there. Let him know there was an aweful lot of work went into and bet he's happy it was done. Positive re-inforcement if you will.
Somebody in the club decided he needed to flex his knowledge and show how much he knew and just flamed this poor guy. Needless to say, the guy never came back. I saw the builder again a few months down the road and talked with him. He said as long as so and so was there he would not be coming back. I assured him that it wouldnt happen again. I confronted the "Bully" about it and asked him why he did what he did....never did get a decent reply. Well as luck would have it. I was on the judging team and had the opportunity to judge this guys entry. He made sure he stayed within earshot so as to hear what we were discussing. I used this to my advantage and just nuked his entry.
When all was said and done, I asked how it felt to hear me talk the way I did about his entry. Suddenly it was as if some one turned the light on. I told him that was how this other kid felt, and if he ever did something like it again, he might need to find another club to a part of. Now that all this nasty stuff is in the past, everybody is getting along fine. We offer tips to one another, show in progress works, etc... I hate that it happened that way, but it did. Gotta love those rivet counters.....they give me something to laugh about. :-)
 _GOTOTOP