I read potroasts reply. Sounds like he ran into the same guy I did who was so busy criticising his opponents entry he forgot to see what was good about it. Like the man says. Put up or shut up. If you think you can do better.....prove it. I don't envy judges at the model contests as it gets down to nitty gritty in most cases. I have had ony one victory, a third place, and believe me, it was hard fought. I don't think here is a new breed out there, just the hidden ones who have come out of the closet

this sounds familiar, as one of the younger members of armorama the memories are still fresh in my mind,
when i was around 12 years old i built aircraft models, and although my modelling skills were modest ( they still arnt great! ) i got a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby. one time i built a 1/48 sea harrier and whilst it wasnt brilliant i was proud of it so i took it along to a local show only to have some of the older modellers laugh in my face, so i took my model home and threw it in the bin and i didnt build another model after that for four years. now im addicted again and loving every minute of it but that event put me off aircraft models and inspired me to build armour because it doesnt have to be perfect in terms of finish etc

sorry to rant on but my point is we should encourage young modellers, and rather than point out the faults in thier models, praise the good parts. then we might encourage more young kids to take up the hobby!

joe

I agree with greatbrit.
Being a newbee I can say I found the right place. I posted my first attempts a week ago and only got good comments and constructive tips. Note I say tips and not critics.
This place is great for EVERY kind of builder.
Keep up the good work!!

A person models for him/herself, NOT for others. He/she may opt to show it to others, but the real important thing is that you enjoyed building your kit and you're satisfied with what you achieved. Second to that is figuring out how you could do better next time.

Modelling is a hobby. It should be a source of enjoyment, not a venue for pissing others off.

what a great thread this is , i have read it with great interest , i have never come across one of these buttheads .but i can see how they would put some one off joining this great hobby .i have just returned to the hobby after a long break 20+years and boy have things moved on what with pe aftermarket kits etc ,
i could never reach the standards i have seen on here but what the hell i do this hobby for me and no one else , but i gotta say you guys have been an inspiration to me to try to improve my skills and do something different than a kit straight out of the box plusyou guys are allways ready with an answer to any problem so i would like to thank all you guys out there

After my 18 year ‘break’ from model building all I am doing at present is tying to get back into it. Reading a few articles on certain models I have purchased left me rather confused. According to the articles these kits are rubbish, nothing fits etc. I found that a few items needed persuasion and that was it. Probably due to inexperience on my side, the confusion that is.

But as you guys say “model build is about passion”. I do not much like some of the critic out there. But you will have to agree that sometimes you build a model / diorama with perfection as your goal, knowing you will not obtain it, but you are willing to try. There are a few dioramas I am hoping to build, where I will be trying for perfection, not as bookworms see it, but as I remember it!

Thanks for a great site!

My other problem with these 'rivet counters is how tey judge a model at competitions. I recently saw one guy judge using a magnifying head set to check the models he judged. Models are meant #1 to be scale representations, if you want perfect you aught to be building 1/1 scale. #2 depending on scale models are meant to be viewed from a least a foot distant. #3 I'm in agreement with sabot most of these guys have never been on an active AFV , so whats there qualification of judging somthing they've only reasd about. #4 I build,research and served on IDF equipment .I know it And know what I'm looking at on a model. I have no business Judging some German WW2 piece I've never seen except in a quick news reel. If you don't know it you shouldn't be judging it. especially if part of the grade is for accuracy. for these reasons and a few others I choose never to compete or judge any more. I'm in this for the enjoyment not for some jackass to tell me what he would have done better.

Josh Weingarten
Aka shiryon
IDF armour group

Now Josh - I have to defend a lot of the guys called to the "battle lines" in judging models. I've been answering that call for almost 20 years (gasp). It isn't always fun...

Issue #1 - I agree that models are meant to be scale representations - not perfect 1/1 clones. I think the overwhelming majority of people who look at models know this. The problems come in when personal bias (thinking you know more about your 'favorite' AFV than anyone else on the Planet - and no one can tell you otherwise) comes into play.

Issue #2 - I also agree that scale models are meant to be viewed at a certain distance. Our eyes in 1/1 scale don't shrink to 1/35th scale when looking at models - we 'see' way more than we would if the eye could shrink. Some judges use the term "three-footer" in both a positive and negative way - i.e. that's a great 'three-footer' over there. Some guys use flashlights because of the poor lighting conditions in a display room to better see the "goodies" on a model. Some use Optivisors because their eyesight isn't what it used to be . A good 'three-footer' encourages the observer to come in closer to see what the modeler did. That's not a bad thing - if kept in context. Some, being human beings, take flashlights and mirrors to the extreme...

Issue #3 - I have never crew served an AFV. I have never been in the US Army. I am a veteran of the US Air Force - and after four years of close boundary sentry duty around F-15 Eagles and the SR-71 Blackbird I can surely build a mean miniature of either. However, I love ordnance subjects. Are you saying that I am not qualified to judge AFV's? How many aircraft modelers have actually flown the subjects they model? How many ship modelers have served on the subjects they construct?

Point is that just because you crew served an armor vehicle - it does not elevate you to the status of a master modeler, a competent modeler, or even a mediocre modeler. Judges are selected because of the depth and scope of their modeling experience - and should be always so. A Judge should be a modeler who you can reasonably expect has built the majority, if not all, the models displayed in a category assigned them. They have broad experience with constructing and finishing the models, and understand what they're looking at. Accuracy and real-world experience should not come into play in selecting a Judge because these are not real vehicles. It is, after all, an evaluation of modeling skill and prowess - not an MOS. Problems come up where there aren't enough sufficiently experienced modelers available to Judge in an event, and this inequity leads to inconsistent results.

Issue #4 - I generally agree that one who aspires to Judging models gravitate towards familiar subjects - like you with IDF Armor. However, an experience modeler selected to Judge AFV models knows the basics of armor modeling - period. I know you do regardless of your favorite subject matter. Speciality knowledge is fine, but rarely called upon. I specialize in US Army Atomic Ordnance and Vietnam-era Gun Trucks - I have never been called upon in an accuracy question in judging models though I've seen some dubious awards given out. I say 'dubious' because had accuracy come into play - the situation would have wound up differently. It is good that accuracy did not come into play, and the evaluation field was leveled to basic technique and application making the entries equal in the eyes of the Judges right from the start.

I do get called on privately from time to time, but that's outside the realm of a simple model event. In the events I have participated in 15 years now, I've not been involved in a decision based on the accuracy of two or more models displayed. Evaluation of the basic construction skills and finishing techniques applied were enough to base the decision.

Woe be to the Judge who's asked by the angry modeler to explain why his or her entry didn't place, or place higher. Sometimes, you feel like Judge Dredd - but willing to take the long walk in the Cursed Earth just to not have to weather those storms.

Just like the cursed "rivet counter" - so too do "Judges" get kicked in the teeth more often because of a few bad apples on the ground than the good ones on the tree above. Without critique, modelers do not advance their skills. The question/problem is defining good critique versus bad critique and its effect on the modeler(s).

Gunnie

I have judged here at local and provincial competitions for quite a few years..every year I say never again!! ,but when the show comes around and the organisers come around asking I always give in...I have been called every name in the book ...(always fun for volenteering your time to help)..I think that if you are willing to put your kit into a model show ,well expect to be judged! I usually judge armor and wheel vehicles from WWII but this years show was devided differently...it was separated by wheeled vehicles any period and tracked vehicles any period...This was a dillema for me as I no nothing about modern equipement and units etc. I found that I was judging the WWII stuff more critically than the modern stuff just because I know it better...I know that 12 SS didn't have their own tigers ,but I don't know if the markings on the M60 are right ..what do you do ?? Next year thing will be different . I had to go back over my judging and correct a few that I had judged to severly . I hate it when I hear that authenticity is not important ,but you all must understand that we judges try and do our best ,but we don't know everything about every vehicle. Judges are always the bad guys ...I have sat down this year after the show and wrote to one entrant who asked by e-mail what was judged and why he hadn't placed ...of course I took the time to answer and I'm glad to say that he will be back at our show next year because of my comments ..Just remember we are human ..we make mistakes ..it aint easy being a judge ..I think it is an experience everyone should try once just to see how it feels. The easy part is judging the gluing ,sanding and putty marks...ain't so easy when you get into authenticity and over all appeal..Okay never again !! This time it is for sure ...they won,t make me change my mind ......errrhhhh till next year anyways...lol
Richard

hi , to all those who have taken the time to reply , many thanks it seems this new bread is in every country and most of us have at sometime met up with one at least , i have sore sides from some of the comments and must save up some body gas to use at the correct moment , cheers ian

Well, when a judge is looking closely at a model, he shouldn't be comparing it to the prototype, necessarally: he should be looking at the basics of construction first: seams, alignment, filled sink holes, paint, decalling. As such, any reasonably experienced modeler should be able to help judge even subjects with which he's not overly familiar. It's best to have guys who are familiar with armor in general judge armor, but basics are basics. In nearly 20 years of judging, I have never had a co-judge dismiss a model that was built well simply because the kit it was built from was not an accurate representation of the original. Now, if someone accurizes and/or superdetails a model and does it well, he's more likely to get an award as the winnowing process occurs.
:-)

It's simple...you judge whether the markings are applied well, i.e., level, no silvering, aligned. The modeler gets the benefit of the doubt in a case like this. :-) No one can (or should) be expected to know every possible marking variation/unit assignment of every vehicle out there. And there's always the possibility of the modeler having built a speculative kit.

yes, I too know this problem, when I used to paint games workshop stuff everyone said my stuff was too dark and sucked it did not have that bright yuckie colors(not realistic in my view), I enjoy using a lot of browns and dark colours therefore I think I returned to the military modelling.
But as I said people use to whine and yep a lot about my stuff, but eventually I have sold tons of stuff, people and stores hired me to paint their armies, making dioramas for them.I have won tons of prices with the games workshop stuff too; in the netherlands, belgium and England..so if my work indeed sucked as people said why did it win?
just do your own thing everyone has and should have it's own style, yes there is always someone better than you, but remember you do this for fun. So keep on modeling.
I am finishing a dio as we speak and will post pics next week , I can't wait for your judgement(and yes I don't like my piece already, but I am sure when I put on the finishing touches I will like it...a bit..),
greetz,


Alco

Ian you must remember the classic rivet counter in military modelling last year The brumbaar next to the canal,now that bloke should have submitted photo's of his work to compare im sure lots of us lesser mortals would have wrote in to him.its my humble opinon that people like that will put people like me off joining clubs and entering comps.

I have a fre points I would like to add to this discussion. Model building is an art, much the same as painting or sculpting. If a man sculpts the Virgin Mary and her right index finger is a tad shorter than the left who cares, right? So why is it when ever a modeller builds his or her "Virgin Mary" it is beaten down and criticized for not being perfect. Those kind of people piss me off. I saw a kid at a model show last year who was very happy with his plane that he built.
The kid walked away and all the "Mutants" crowded around and started to dissect it. There was something wrong with everything on it. To me it looked like your normal average jet.
These guys had a field day with it. But you know what really gets me, they never entered a damn thing in the contest.

I am sickened that people are like that. I know it sounds "Harsh" but it really is annoying! If you are one, I don't hate you. I don't even know you. But it would be nice if every model was "equal" despite the most obvious flaws.

Thank you for your time.

~Chip

Here is my theory, being a Psychologist; I believe that some of these "mutants" "rivet counters" lack basic social skills, for what ever reason. Some of their self-worth is based on this great hobby but also in knowing more than the other modeler. Unfortunately this knowledge or social currency as I like to call it has a very limited appeal outside modeling circles. Very difficult to meet people by exhibiting your knowledge of early war camouflage used by the German Army. Therefore when surrounded by other modelers, it become there claim to fame that they know more than the other guy they become or believe they will become a focus of attention at meeting and seen as an expert. Unfortunately knowledge does not translate into a good model, which is why you often see these guys walking around the shows critiquing and not having nay entries, or hanging out at the local hobby store talking about the shortcoming of different kits or wanting to order the latest greatest piece of modeling hardware or model. These guys are like the "comic book guy" on the Simpsons. It is truly unfortunate that they choose to use there vast, if very specific knowledge, for bad as opposed to good. I was apprehensive about joining a club because I thought this would be a breeding ground for the mutants luckily I have been to several meetings and most seem very friendly and encouraging. I feel bad for some of you and the subjects of your posts who have been victimized by these idiots.

Cannot agree more Ian!!! Unfortunately the hobby is full of such guys, and they're almost everywhere ands the worse is that they often manage hobby clubs, own modelling magazines, etc. Anyway nobody is perfect, and I moan and complain sometimes too, but on the other hand I do not fear showing my work, and accepts critics. The guys you're talking about have another common point: they do not share anything but moans and complaints!!!
I was shocked when I found Armorama, a place where you can share your work, experiences, doubts and get an outstanding return in terms of help and support...
Ciao

not just modelling, I own 2 lambretta's an it's the same there, on show machines the anoraks pointing out that there is an extra thread showing on the bolt! oh they left the factory in zinc nuts/bolts not stainless but answer they will not rust. i've still got 6 volt point system
answer |i've got 12 volt electronic better lights and more relibale and less chance of being flattened by an hgv at night, no mater what hobby your into these sad losers exsist but it can be fun to wind them up to! why not have a build out the box competion for your club or just come out with it if my kit offends you why bother stand and rip it to bits no one is forcing you to look at it p.s only give neg views if you can do better than me

but also seen a forum on an other website and they were ripping into academys grant which to my knowlage no one has even seen they all jumped on the wagon rubbing each others ego's up making presuptions on the honey kit sad or what these people should put their money were their mouth is and produce a kit that is "100%" true and watch some one esle trear into it then they will eat humble pie.........I think

It was brought up earlier in the initial post but kind of overlooked - I really appreciate the forum replies and posts when there are pictures of the replier's models when they have comments - not just photos from the original post author. I don't really mind if someone has some constructive comments, good or bad, if they can explain a technique or tip and accompany it with a photo of how they had performed the tip or technique or just in general, photos demontarting their skills.

I am not very good with my skills yet but I always try to post my attempts and I really love seeing other's as well. Nothing gets me more excited about pushing myself to get better than to see posts, as an example, from guys like anders or arthur and others in the figure forum. I respect them more because I see what they have done and I listen to their advice.

Maybe we can start looking for ways to positively influence the forums by posting more pics with the replies, tips and techniques to kind of push out the naysayers or when we see one doing that, ask them to post their photos.

What do you think of that idea?

I advocate this idea - and have been known to do that frequently with the posts I make. I do think it lends some creedence to suggestions presented - often the photo speaks the thousand words we can't always write in a thread reply. If everyone is able to share in this manner then more modelers benefit from it. I believe Armorama leads the way in this idea - and there's no comparison elsewhere for armor modelers.

Gunnie

I think it is a good idea ,but...not all of us have a digital camera . I only have pictures taken so often when I can find a friend with a camera at a show .. Trying to save up for one but....

Richard

A lot of time it comes down to "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach (or in this case, criticize.)
I try to include a pic of my version of the kit, or something similar to the subject, when I comment. It is not so much to brag, as it is to put myself on the chopping block. The person asking for the advice or comment can then decide whether to take my advice or critique based on my own workmanship.

As far as super detailing goes--I believe in the 3 foot rule: If it looks good from 3 feet away then I am happy with it. I cannot see spending $7 on an aftermarket ejection seat, $4 on a photo etched jet engine flameholder, and $12 on decals, for a $10 1/72 model, which will sit on my shelf behind glass anyway. How much time are these modelers frittering away on details as opposed to moving on to the next kit?

I guess it all comes down to personal preferences. With work and family tying up much of my time I can't see putting in that much effort.

Back to the original subject: if only these mutants could just keep their mouths shut or learn some tact...

Like Al and Gunnie, I have been judging at model contests for many years. IPMS/USA judging rules force judges to focus on basic modeling skills -- assembly, finish, alignment of parts, etc.

Notice I said "finish," not "color." What this comes down to is that the paint should be even with no drips, sanding marks, brush marks (unless they appear on the original vehicle)fingerprints, glue smears, etc. Decals should look like they are painted on the model -- no silvering or bubbles. The rules specifically state "color shade should not be used to determine a model's accuracy Models with unusual colors or color schemes should be accompanied by documentation."

All too often I will see a nice kit, sometimes with lots of aftermarket details added, that simply does not meet the basic criteria for a good build. All the PE and resin in the world cannot forgive a bad job of building and finishing. Indeed, some of the finest models I have seen recently have been OOTB models, with only simple details like drilled out gun barrels and exhaust pipes.

In my experience, the yo-yos you see standing around the tables at contests loudly criticizing someone else's model are NOT judges. They are almost always other entrants who feel that they can somehow improve the stature of their own work by ripping on someone else's work. This usually backfires.

Sometimes after a contest I'll be approached by modelers who want to know why they didn't win. I'll start out by trying to say something nice about the model, but when I start pointing out flaws in their building or finishing, they sometimes become defensive or even beligerent. If they didn't want to know, they shouldn't ask.

Misaligned parts, glue spots and silvered decals are the most common problems -- these are basic modeling skills, not rocket science. I have never seen a model knocked out of competition because it was the "wrong" shade of OD or dunkelgelb.

Weathering is a tricky thing to judge. I personally like my tanks and vehicles a little on the "used and abused" side of weathering, but others like a "cleaner" vehicle. Tip: if you do weather heavily, do it logically. In other words, don't try to cover up building or finishing mistakes by slapping on some mud. Look at photos of real vehicles and see how dirt, grime and mud runs, drips and accumulates on real vehicles.

I could go on and on, but I think I'll stop now with one final thought: Look at model contests as a chance to meet with other modelers and learn. If you go with the goal of winning something, you may be disappointed.

Great example HP - those who practice this tactic at a model contests are indeed Mutants. I see this a lot - and not just in IPMS circles. They hover around their own subjects too, hoping to ensnare a judge, and sway his opinion too...

Terrible form at a model event!

Gunnie

I want you all to remember this was a joke...
We had a local contest and decided we were going to make a few of the local rivet counters sweat a little. I was the bait. I build an OOTB kit, the monogram F4. Nice clean build, nothing extra. When it was time for the judging we left the area open to the public to watch. As my friends closed in on my model and the "experts" were right there making sure they could take it all in, my friend says "This thing is all wrong" at which point he produces a ball peen hammer and procedes to smash the crap out of my plane. Then he sounds off with "Next!" The look on the "Experts" faces was priceless. Luckily my friend didnt hit it too hard and cause any damage to any of the other entrys. He proceeded to re-inforce the fact that they would use the basics to judge by...they all agreed and all was well... :-) :-) :-) "Q"