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Why wasn't Flag of our Fathers a success
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:23 PM UTC
Both "Flags" and "Letters" were shown here a few months ago and I had the opportunity to watch both movies.

The former was shown first. My initial expectation was the movie would be something like "Sands of Iwo Jima" but it changed when it tends to focus more on the personal lives of the Marines (and one Navy corpsman) who planted the flag and less combat. Though there not a lot of battle scenes, it was a pretty good movie as far as the story-telling is concerned. The movie showed (of course) there is no glory in war and the men who planted the flag maintained their humility and did not let glory get into their heads and preferred to stay with their buddies.

The latter was shown about a month later and it provided a good counterpoint and the scenes of both movies are intertwined. It's not that I'm trying to be an apologist for the Japanese but IMO, it was a rather honest depiction. It showed that the Japanese were humans too, especially in one scene that centered on one inept private who did not seem to share the fanatical patriotism of his superiors and some of his comrades. If there's one thing I learned from this movie, it made me reconsider how I view the Japanese during the war.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Both "Flags" and "Letters" were shown here a few months ago and I had the opportunity to watch both movies.

The former was shown first. My initial expectation was the movie would be something like "Sands of Iwo Jima" but it changed when it tends to focus more on the personal lives of the Marines (and one Navy corpsman) who planted the flag and less combat. Though there not a lot of battle scenes, it was a pretty good movie as far as the story-telling is concerned. The movie showed (of course) there is no glory in war and the men who planted the flag maintained their humility and did not let glory get into their heads and preferred to stay with their buddies.

The latter was shown about a month later and it provided a good counterpoint and the scenes of both movies are intertwined. It's not that I'm trying to be an apologist for the Japanese but IMO, it was a rather honest depiction. It showed that the Japanese were humans too, especially in one scene that centered on one inept private who did not seem to share the fanatical patriotism of his superiors and some of his comrades. If there's one thing I learned from this movie, it made me reconsider how I view the Japanese during the war.



Ron-- I am rather pleased and somewhat surprised by your response. The Japanese were so brutal and barbaric in their occupation of various lands during WW II that I cannot hardly believe anyone would forgive and forget their inhumanity to their fellow man. That the film allowed you to take another look at how we view other human beings is certainly food for thought. I have not seen letters, but based on your comments, I certainly want to view it.
thanks
DJ
propboy44256
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:11 PM UTC
Maybe advertising, to tell you the truth I had never heard of the movie until this post
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe advertising, to tell you the truth I had never heard of the movie until this post


The movie tie in version of the book has been prominently displayed at Barnes and Noble non-stop for a year now. This features the flag raising photo on the cover. It was discussed before release here and at other modeling sites with links to the trailers. IIRC, the studio took decent sized adds in the movie pages and the was TV advertising as well. News papers interviewed veterans at the time of release.
4-Eyes71
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 07:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Both "Flags" and "Letters" were shown here a few months ago and I had the opportunity to watch both movies.

The former was shown first. My initial expectation was the movie would be something like "Sands of Iwo Jima" but it changed when it tends to focus more on the personal lives of the Marines (and one Navy corpsman) who planted the flag and less combat. Though there not a lot of battle scenes, it was a pretty good movie as far as the story-telling is concerned. The movie showed (of course) there is no glory in war and the men who planted the flag maintained their humility and did not let glory get into their heads and preferred to stay with their buddies.

The latter was shown about a month later and it provided a good counterpoint and the scenes of both movies are intertwined. It's not that I'm trying to be an apologist for the Japanese but IMO, it was a rather honest depiction. It showed that the Japanese were humans too, especially in one scene that centered on one inept private who did not seem to share the fanatical patriotism of his superiors and some of his comrades. If there's one thing I learned from this movie, it made me reconsider how I view the Japanese during the war.



Ron-- I am rather pleased and somewhat surprised by your response. The Japanese were so brutal and barbaric in their occupation of various lands during WW II that I cannot hardly believe anyone would forgive and forget their inhumanity to their fellow man. That the film allowed you to take another look at how we view other human beings is certainly food for thought. I have not seen letters, but based on your comments, I certainly want to view it.
thanks
DJ



Yes, that's true. There is no doubt the Japanese committed atrocities, especially here in my country but that didn't mean all Japanese were like that. I've read about stories of some Japanese who indeed showed compassion towards their foes, especially those who were educated in the west. As a historian (aspiring to specialize in military history), I was trained to look at all perspectives to arrive at an impartial conclusion.

As for forgiveness, we shuold condemn the actions they did but not the people, especially those compelled to do it against their will. I learned that you should not make sweeping statements about someone or something until you see it from various perspectives.
bgazso
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 03:36 AM UTC
I both read the book "Flags" and have seen the movie. What's important to remember about the story is it was written by Doc Bradley's son because he realized - not till after his father's death - that his dad and those 5 other guys were forever linked because of Rosenthal's photo, and he decided to find out who they were, REALLY were. This was a war story only in that's what brought those kids together, and what they had to endure - 3 never made it off the island, after all.

Poor Ira couldn't get over the death of his buddies, especially Mike Strank. Ira was one of the few in the Division who had seen combat before. Looking at the movie, it's so obvious that Ira was suffering from post traumatic stress, but back then it was "pull yourself together, what's wrong with you." Ira drank himself to death, but he really died of a broken heart. Sorry if that real story isn't macho enough for you, but it sure hit me pretty hard.

As far as "Letters", I haven't decided if I'm going to watch it yet. Portraying the Japanese Army in a place where there were no civilians, to me, gives a false impression of how the army acted and (conveniently?) avoids the minor issue of the wholesale slaughter of every native population that had the misfortune to be "liberated" by the Imperial Japanese Army. While I'm sure there were humane individuals in that army, the record speaks for itself. We won't even go into the treatment of POW's.

Ron, in that vein, you are aware of how the people of Manila were massacred - women, children, everybody they could get their hands on - as the U.S. fought their way into the city, right?

And yes, I know the Yanks did some awful things, but not with institutional approval, and I'd like to believe most were held accountable for their actions if discovered.

AJLaFleche
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text


the wholesale slaughter of every native population


Barry, that is pretty common whereever a war is fought by a people who consider themselves superior to their enemies, be it a master race or led by a divine emperor or to have a manifest desiny.
Sadly our treatment of the indigenous people of North America was only slightly better. Whole populations were destoyed with no trace left, such as the Agawam tribe in my backyard. Consider the intentional delivery of smallpox infected blankets by Lord Jeffrey Amherst. The many broken treaties and massacred villages during the wars against the Plains Indians and the support of that by the general population.
Today we need only look to Darfhur and a few years ago to the Hutus and Tustis murdering each opther like there was no tomorrow.
Our race has a cruel streak in it that sadly lies very close to the surface and when unleashed by the power of gods, real or imagined, is a terrible thing indeed.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:37 AM UTC
Well, let the people who think they are without sin, cast the first stone. If a film gives us pause to reflect that stereotyping is dangerous and offensive, great! Want to read a great book written in this same vein? Try "Just Americans." Well done history - objective, unemotional- on the Japanese Americans during World War II. It was an eye-opener to me especially regarding the re-location actions of our Government.
DJ
hogarth
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:54 AM UTC
Hey DJ,

Looks like I'm back in this thread, since it keeps resurfacing. Just wanted to say that I'm reading "Just Americans" right now, and you're right. It's a very good book. I have about 70 pages left. Pretty good account of the men of the 442nd and what they endured at home and at the front.

As for "Flags" and "Letters" (for everyone else), they are movies, and, as Eastwood movies, I think they are meant to be thought-provoking. So no, you won't see how the Japanese used Korean slave labor on the island to help make the defences, or how they massacred populations of people. Particularly in Letters, you'll see nicer Japanese and not-so-nice, and the same for the Americans. In the end, people are people and I think that's the point. Someone who does something heroic one minute could do something shameful the next, or vice versa.

Rob
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:32 PM UTC
Rob- thanks for the reply. I would also recommend Choices Under Fire by Michael Bess for your review. Superb book on the moral aspects of World War II. His commentary on the dropping of the atom bombs is insightful to say the least. Sounds like a high brow book, but it is easy reading and contains some very interesting observations.
DJ
hogarth
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 04:16 PM UTC
DJ,

Well, I finished Just Americans and, while a decently written book, the last page of the main text (pg 256) killed it for me. Robert Asahina, the author, in describing FDR as the man who condemned the Japanese Americans to the camps but also giving the 442nd their chance, is described as revered by the Americans and having his face on Mt. Rushmore! HELLO!!!!! His face is not on Mt. Rushmore! That's TEDDY ROOSEVELT! Duh. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and TR (unless a new head has been added). Heck, the monument was built while FDR was President. Some might think of him as conceited, but he wasn't THAT conceited to have a monument of himself built while he was still the President.

This is supposed to be a history book, yet a weekly look at the History Channel could have solved this little problem, since they invariably show Mt. Rushmore on one of their programs. I sent an email to the publisher lambasting Asahina for this mistake and their own editors for not catching it. They replied with a good old "thanks for letting us know" type thing. Ugh!

The funny part is Asahina makes this HUGE point about how Japanese Americans were Americans first, then he goofs on this bit of history that most Americans should know (although I'm sure they don't).

He probably thinks Da Vinci scultped Mt. Rushmore!

Rob
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 06:10 PM UTC
Rob-- I totally agree with you! The book was compelling reading until the end. What ax was the author trying to grind? I still believe the book has value and would encourage others to read it. I am into The Dieppe Raid by Robin Neillands. Superb run down on a disater. Our Canadian Brothers are probably still mystified by why this happened.
DJ
hogarth
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 07:11 PM UTC
I read Neillands' "The Conquest of the Reich", which I remember as being pretty good.

Right now I'm re-reading the Glantz and House book "The Battle of Kursk".

I agree about Asahina....he definitely had a big axe to grind. I understand his points, but I don't know that that book was the proper forum. Was it about the unit or about people in camps? I wish he'd narrowed his focus a bit.

Rob
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 07:28 PM UTC
Rob-- let me know your thoughts on the Kursk book. I met Glantz several times during my time on active duty. Very interesting guy. To say the least, he knew more and was more Russian than the Russians.
DJ
hogarth
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Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:14 PM UTC
DJ,

As i wrote above, I'm re-reading the Kursk book. So I can already tell you that it's a very good book. Kind of de-bunks some old myths of the battle. I first read it about 5 years ago, but am now planning some Kursk dios so wanted to re-read it.

That's great that you met him. The most interesting historical writers or figures I've met are John Keegan and Dick Winters.

Rob
spooky6
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Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 05:29 PM UTC
I watched "Flags" about a month ago, and "Letters" last Sunday, and I thought the latter was better. More of a war movie really. There was a nice link though -- there's one scene in "Letters" where a US marine is captured and then brutally murdered, and it sort of was like Eastwood was showing us what he didn't show us happening to the marine in letters.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I watched "Flags" about a month ago, and "Letters" last Sunday, and I thought the latter was better. More of a war movie really. There was a nice link though -- there's one scene in "Letters" where a US marine is captured and then brutally murdered, and it sort of was like Eastwood was showing us what he didn't show us happening to the marine in letters.



Dave-- based on your commentary, I am going to rent Letters. get back with you afterwards.
thanks
DJ