Robert I have to totally agree with DJ on this one as well. I truly hated The Deer Hunter when it came out, and I've never been able to sit through it since to see if I liked it any better with time. Yes, it won a bunch of awards but frankly I'd have to say that was mainly because it was the type of "War Movie" that the Hollywood elite of the Academy voters really likes. That's not to say it's award worthy, just that they THINK it's award worthy.
Fortunately this is a case of 'to each his own.' I'm sure there are some movies on my 'best of...' list that you consider real stinkers.
I've still got to pick up a copy of Flags of our Fathers. I also have to get to see Letters for Iwo Jima.
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Why wasn't Flag of our Fathers a success
Halfyank
Member Since: February 01, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:43 PM UTC
hogarth
Member Since: June 02, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:17 PM UTC
The Deer Hunter is an incredibly slow-moving, plodding piece that probably did not need to be 3 hours long. The acting in it is superb.
Personally, I like both Flags of Our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima better than The Deer Hunter. I was just comparing Flags to The Deer Hunter in the sense that most of both movies do not take place on the battlefield, but rather back at home, and both show what war does to the people who survive. Like them or not, that's the way they are set up. Flags is geared more toward "what do we call a hero" than The Deer Hunter, but both deal with the aftermath of war on people.
Personally, I like both Flags of Our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima better than The Deer Hunter. I was just comparing Flags to The Deer Hunter in the sense that most of both movies do not take place on the battlefield, but rather back at home, and both show what war does to the people who survive. Like them or not, that's the way they are set up. Flags is geared more toward "what do we call a hero" than The Deer Hunter, but both deal with the aftermath of war on people.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Deer Hunter is an incredibly slow-moving, plodding piece that probably did not need to be 3 hours long. The acting in it is superb.
Personally, I like both Flags of Our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima better than The Deer Hunter. I was just comparing Flags to The Deer Hunter in the sense that most of both movies do not take place on the battlefield, but rather back at home, and both show what war does to the people who survive. Like them or not, that's the way they are set up. Flags is geared more toward "what do we call a hero" than The Deer Hunter, but both deal with the aftermath of war on people.
Rob-- I follow your thoughts on the horrible Deer Hunter. To reflect another contributor's observation, to me, it was like watching one of those Hallmark Hall of Fame pre-Christmas production which my beloved Wife insist we watch. They make my season. Most depressing. Afterwards, I feel like I should throw a rope over the railing and just end it all lest we appear in one of those productions. But, I digress. Let us know how Letters from Iwo appeals to you.
DJ
hogarth
Member Since: June 02, 2006
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 01:05 AM UTC
DJ and fellow modelers,
I liked "Letters" more than "Flags". The film is much better paced, lacks all those flashbacks (there are a couple, but they are seamless in their transitions), there is more "battle", etc. Whether or not it shows what the "average" Japanese soldier went through on Iwo is debatable, I guess, since there weren't many captured to tell their tales. Some have argued that it paints too rosy a picture of the Japanese commander, Kuribayashi (forgive me if I've misspelled!).
I'm fortunate to live in a city in the US that has a few "artsy" movie theaters that show these limited release movies, and saw it the weekend it opened.
To me, the two films (Flags and Letters) work well as a pair. But they are very different types of movies. I'd say both are definitely worth seeing (a few Japanese Ha Go lookalike tanks in "Letters" by the way), that Letters is better than Flags, and that both are better than The Deer Hunter.
Rob
I liked "Letters" more than "Flags". The film is much better paced, lacks all those flashbacks (there are a couple, but they are seamless in their transitions), there is more "battle", etc. Whether or not it shows what the "average" Japanese soldier went through on Iwo is debatable, I guess, since there weren't many captured to tell their tales. Some have argued that it paints too rosy a picture of the Japanese commander, Kuribayashi (forgive me if I've misspelled!).
I'm fortunate to live in a city in the US that has a few "artsy" movie theaters that show these limited release movies, and saw it the weekend it opened.
To me, the two films (Flags and Letters) work well as a pair. But they are very different types of movies. I'd say both are definitely worth seeing (a few Japanese Ha Go lookalike tanks in "Letters" by the way), that Letters is better than Flags, and that both are better than The Deer Hunter.
Rob
210cav
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 02:16 AM UTC
Rob-- thanks. I am encouraged to see Letters now. I usually wait until Netflick has them then order one to view. Great system, you keep it as long as you want and it beats buying the DVD.
thanks again
DJ
thanks again
DJ
BillyBishop
Member Since: March 20, 2002
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 07:02 PM UTC
"Flags" was a decent movie. It was more a movie about the war bond drive and what raising the flag on Iwo Jima meant to US morale at home. I never realised the country was almost bankrupted from the war.
The effects of war on the soldiers was what this film is about.
It just goes to show that you can win a war and be just as affected as if you lost...
Barry Pepper was in this movie, he was the Mike Strank, the Sergeant.
(He was the sniper from Saving Private Ryan and played Roger Maris in the excellent fim "61")
I gave this movie a 7/10 and thought it ran a little long. The fight scenes were well shot and I plan to see Letters from Iwo Jima soon.
Cheers, Michael
The effects of war on the soldiers was what this film is about.
It just goes to show that you can win a war and be just as affected as if you lost...
Barry Pepper was in this movie, he was the Mike Strank, the Sergeant.
(He was the sniper from Saving Private Ryan and played Roger Maris in the excellent fim "61")
I gave this movie a 7/10 and thought it ran a little long. The fight scenes were well shot and I plan to see Letters from Iwo Jima soon.
Cheers, Michael
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 09:47 PM UTC
Mike-- The more we discuss Letters, the more curious I become about seeing it. Originally, I just blew it off as another Hollywood attempt to show how mean and cruel Americans were during WW II. I am taking another look at my orignal perception.
DJ
DJ
beachbm2
Member Since: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 02:05 AM UTC
Well in my opinion was a poor remake of the Ira Hays story from the 50's Just a poorly made film in my opinion.
Jeff Larkin
Jeff Larkin
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 06:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well in my opinion was a poor remake of the Ira Hays story from the 50's Just a poorly made film in my opinion.
Jeff Larkin
Jeff-- was that one on Hayes on the Hallmark Hall of Fame starring Lee Marvin as Hayes?
DJ
PS-- if so, I am old enough to recall it....scary!
Mars_Volta
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 07:11 AM UTC
It's not a bad, bad, bad, movie, like The great Raid (ridiculous). But its not at the same level as Saving private Ryan or The thin red line either.
To me its like their original idea was to make a linear story about the guys who fought in Iwo Jima and then came back home and served for propaganda purpose.
But the part where they come back to country is a lot less exciting than the battle scenes, and there's a lot of repeating....So they edited the movie with battle scenes inserted in the long dull end part. It's just my opinion but I think they way it switches between country tour and battle scenes is not natural. It just looks like they putted battle scenes here and there in the end to keep the viewers attention, cause its getting long and we all understand what they say but they keep repeating and repeating, and the guy is getting more and more drunk....
And the intro with the guy nowadays is just not necessary. I was like : What's the purpose of this???!?!?!
Same thing for the view from the Corsairs cockpit during the invasion, with the computer generated landing ships, that was looking videogamish at times. And was'nt strenghtning the storyline.
Phil
To me its like their original idea was to make a linear story about the guys who fought in Iwo Jima and then came back home and served for propaganda purpose.
But the part where they come back to country is a lot less exciting than the battle scenes, and there's a lot of repeating....So they edited the movie with battle scenes inserted in the long dull end part. It's just my opinion but I think they way it switches between country tour and battle scenes is not natural. It just looks like they putted battle scenes here and there in the end to keep the viewers attention, cause its getting long and we all understand what they say but they keep repeating and repeating, and the guy is getting more and more drunk....
And the intro with the guy nowadays is just not necessary. I was like : What's the purpose of this???!?!?!
Same thing for the view from the Corsairs cockpit during the invasion, with the computer generated landing ships, that was looking videogamish at times. And was'nt strenghtning the storyline.
Phil
fanai
Member Since: April 10, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 01:07 PM UTC
I thought I would add a couple of things to this great thread- I did not get to see 'Flags' so will not comment but I did see 'Letters" and was totally caught up in it ( and I had an Uncle in Malaysa during the Fall of Singapore so don't belive all the PC but I thought that id was good to see that of course the Japanese where human although they did see things diffeently (Iwo Jima was accepted as part of Japan) - The movie was touching and harsh at the same time and I did enjoy it but I got a totally different view from my son as he actually went with a 20 something Japanese friend and Diskay(not the right spelling was deeply moved but also was totally unaware how much the "suicide Cult" was for his forefathers- it is always great to see the 'other' side and 2 of the major officers had friends in the US but had similar feelings to those during the Civil War where country came before friendship.
I hope you understand where i have been going with this
Ian
I hope you understand where i have been going with this
Ian
hellbent11
Member Since: August 17, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 03:04 PM UTC
Here goes a Jarhead's perception:
IMHO The ENTIRE POINT of the the film as well as the book is not to give us sticky pajama's with battle scenes.
The POINT of the film and book is to show us how six young men who were very representative of their local population, military branch, and country became a part of history by accomplishing what was a "routine" task for them.
This story and movie are meant to put a face on the battle. We know everything about the battle but what do we know about the young men that "made" the battle?
The reason why it was not as big as SPR is that America is tired of war. We love war movies when their isn't a war going on. That transfers over to the box office.
Just like the picture in the paper says: "AMERICA IS NOT AT WAR. THE MARINE CORPS IS AT WAR. AMERICA IS AT THE MALL."
IMHO The ENTIRE POINT of the the film as well as the book is not to give us sticky pajama's with battle scenes.
The POINT of the film and book is to show us how six young men who were very representative of their local population, military branch, and country became a part of history by accomplishing what was a "routine" task for them.
This story and movie are meant to put a face on the battle. We know everything about the battle but what do we know about the young men that "made" the battle?
The reason why it was not as big as SPR is that America is tired of war. We love war movies when their isn't a war going on. That transfers over to the box office.
Just like the picture in the paper says: "AMERICA IS NOT AT WAR. THE MARINE CORPS IS AT WAR. AMERICA IS AT THE MALL."
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 06:06 PM UTC
Interesting series of comments posted here. Someone even thought "The Great Raid" was a less than stellar movie. (I would argue that point, but not here). I thought the last comment posted regarding the attractiveness of a war film based on current world events was insightful. During World War II there were some highly popular films made that on reflection are less than outstanding films. One that readily comes to mind is Wake Island. The more successful theatrical productions like The Story of GI Joe and a Walk In The Sun never were box office hits even though I consider them extremely well done for the time. They were not big hits because America was becoming war weary. People were tired of hearing about the war and films like the latter two I mentioned brought back some stark realities. For example in both GI Joe and A Walk there is no portrayal of the Germans. You don't even see them in the GI Joe film. There is an examination of the brutal combat in Italy and of men performing at a less than stellar level. People apparently did not want to hear about the war. If I am on the right beam then Flags, as was mentioned, is an example of the public's lack of interest in conflict related works during a war. Even though I doubt the man on the street knows there is a war going on. One other point, I would expand the comment made about the Marines being the only one's aware of the war. The United States Army is also critically aware of the combat involved in advancing our political goals in the Middle East as are no doubt the Sailors at sea and the Airmen overhead. We fight and will win as a joint team.
Keep those cards and letters coming.
DJ
Keep those cards and letters coming.
DJ
hogarth
Member Since: June 02, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 06:12 PM UTC
DJ,
I agree w/you in your comments on The Great Raid. I loved "Ghost Soldiers" when I read it a few years ago, so when I heard it was going to be a movie, I was excited. And I thought it was pretty good. A little "flat", for lack of a better term, but still good, and the photos during the credits were worth the price of admission.
On a side note, this is why I have a problem with "Saving Private Ryan"....all the amazing TRUE stories coming out of WW2, and Spielberg goes with a made-up story?! That and the ham-handed ending just killed it for me. The action scenes were great and all, but as film, it's a bunch of cliches strung together with some good action in between. I love that "Ghost Soldiers" became a movie, and I'd LOVE to see "The Longest Winter" become one as well.
Also, to toot my own horn, I mentioned about 20 posts ago, on page 1, that the American public was sick of war and therefore not going out to see "Flags"(I mean really....best-selling book combined with Eastwood = no box office $?).
Happy modeling and movie watching.
Rob
I agree w/you in your comments on The Great Raid. I loved "Ghost Soldiers" when I read it a few years ago, so when I heard it was going to be a movie, I was excited. And I thought it was pretty good. A little "flat", for lack of a better term, but still good, and the photos during the credits were worth the price of admission.
On a side note, this is why I have a problem with "Saving Private Ryan"....all the amazing TRUE stories coming out of WW2, and Spielberg goes with a made-up story?! That and the ham-handed ending just killed it for me. The action scenes were great and all, but as film, it's a bunch of cliches strung together with some good action in between. I love that "Ghost Soldiers" became a movie, and I'd LOVE to see "The Longest Winter" become one as well.
Also, to toot my own horn, I mentioned about 20 posts ago, on page 1, that the American public was sick of war and therefore not going out to see "Flags"(I mean really....best-selling book combined with Eastwood = no box office $?).
Happy modeling and movie watching.
Rob
210cav
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Posted: Monday, March 05, 2007 - 01:17 AM UTC
Rob-- the fellow who played Mucci in the Great Raid made the movie for me. His speech to the men prior to embarking on the mission was awesome. The character development was first class. You saw a leader push and yet be responsive to reasonable modifications of the plan from his subordinates. Great lessons in that film. Having said that, Flags failed to define for me a readily observable and comprehensible theme. I knew why they were on Iwo Jima, but not from the movie. Hell, the film didn't show a map indicating where the hell hole was located. So, as many others have stated, the intent was not to produce a war thriller. Rather, IMHO, it was to once again show the big bad government manipulating people. Because of this perception, I came away disappointed. I am going to rent Letters and start another discussion when I complete viewing it.
This is a great exchange and I certainly appreciate everyone's comments.
Keep it up
DJ
This is a great exchange and I certainly appreciate everyone's comments.
Keep it up
DJ
Pak_40
Member Since: August 12, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 09:10 AM UTC
Hi all,
I went over to a friends house and he had rented "Flags of Our Fathers". It had some great combat images, but, it was impossible to follow. It was a movie that looked like someone put together stuff from the cutting room floor. Sorry, but I think that other, older movies on this subject were better.
Chris- Yes, I dislikes it!
I went over to a friends house and he had rented "Flags of Our Fathers". It had some great combat images, but, it was impossible to follow. It was a movie that looked like someone put together stuff from the cutting room floor. Sorry, but I think that other, older movies on this subject were better.
Chris- Yes, I dislikes it!
hellbent11
Member Since: August 17, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 01:38 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I thought the last comment posted regarding the attractiveness of a war film based on current world events was insightful. One other point, I would expand the comment made about the Marines being the only one's aware of the war. The United States Army is also critically aware of the combat involved in advancing our political goals in the Middle East as are no doubt the Sailors at sea and the Airmen overhead. We fight and will win as a joint team.
Keep those cards and letters coming.
DJ
You are correct! We are a TEAM and everyone feels the crunch.
No disrespect. I was simply referencing a pic in a local paper of a Marine Corps recruiting office that I think was also featured in one of the national papers.
IMHO: I think that it sum's up "America's" view of the war.
It is truly a shame. I have some strong ideas and beliefs but this is not the place for them as we are not allowed to discuss "current events" here. It's for the best though, so we all stay friends in modelling!
hellbent11
Member Since: August 17, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 01:45 PM UTC
Sorry, Forgot to add before!
I will admit that AFTER reading the book the movie seemed better.
It would seem not as action packed as SPR if you did not know the background.
I will admit that AFTER reading the book the movie seemed better.
It would seem not as action packed as SPR if you did not know the background.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 06:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI thought the last comment posted regarding the attractiveness of a war film based on current world events was insightful. One other point, I would expand the comment made about the Marines being the only one's aware of the war. The United States Army is also critically aware of the combat involved in advancing our political goals in the Middle East as are no doubt the Sailors at sea and the Airmen overhead. We fight and will win as a joint team.
Keep those cards and letters coming.
DJ
You are correct! We are a TEAM and everyone feels the crunch.
No disrespect. I was simply referencing a pic in a local paper of a Marine Corps recruiting office that I think was also featured in one of the national papers.
IMHO: I think that it sum's up "America's" view of the war.
It is truly a shame. I have some strong ideas and beliefs but this is not the place for them as we are not allowed to discuss "current events" here. It's for the best though, so we all stay friends in modelling!
Thanks for your response. We are going to beat these clowns and depart with honor. Everyone of us!
DJ
Timd346
Member Since: March 03, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 08:40 AM UTC
idc wut the criics or other ppl thought about it but i think it was if not one of the best war movies i have seen.
Tim
Tim
210cav
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Posted: Monday, March 12, 2007 - 05:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
idc wut the criics or other ppl thought about it but i think it was if not one of the best war movies i have seen.
Tim
Tim-- can I also recommend, you do a search on this site for war movies. We had several threads that had lists of "my favorite war movies." Some of the recommendations may spur you to rent other fine films.
DJ
beachbm2
Member Since: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 06:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
[Jeff-- was that one on Hayes on the Hallmark Hall of Fame starring Lee Marvin as Hayes?
Sorry before that I guess as it was Tony Curtis who played Ira.
Cheers
jeff
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text[Jeff-- was that one on Hayes on the Hallmark Hall of Fame starring Lee Marvin as Hayes?
Sorry before that I guess as it was Tony Curtis who played Ira.
Cheers
jeff
Curtis was certainly in a movie in which he played Hayes. 1961, The Outsider. Lee Marvin did it on TV. 1960 Sunday Showcase.
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 01:19 AM UTC
I read the book l;ast summer and saw the movie about a month ago.
I really didn't think it was all that hard to follow, just not as linear as most stories are. It was less a war movie, as SPR, but the story of how these reluctant "heroes" were manufactured from happenstance and had all understood they had done nothing particularly heroic to raise the second flag. It was also the story of how the spotlight of noteriety affected each of the survivors.
I really didn't think it was all that hard to follow, just not as linear as most stories are. It was less a war movie, as SPR, but the story of how these reluctant "heroes" were manufactured from happenstance and had all understood they had done nothing particularly heroic to raise the second flag. It was also the story of how the spotlight of noteriety affected each of the survivors.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 04:25 AM UTC
Al-- I think your assessment comments are right on target.
thanks
DJ
thanks
DJ
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