Two things I saw on TV the past couple of days sparked this thought. The first an ad for a movie due to be released called "the 300" and an episode of dogfights or gufights on the HIstory channel about the Battle off of Samar Island during the INvasion of Leyte in 1944.and how they were similar yet with totally different outcomes

Of course if you hadn't figured it out, the 300 is Themopylae an update of the great film 300 Spartans. A very tiny force fighting a vastly supeior one and holding them off for days through sheer bravery and fighting spirit. Of course the betrayal and the eventual out come of 100 % casualties was the fnal act.
The Battle off of Samar had many simularites. A vastly superior force with Battleships (including the 18inch Yamato) and heavy crusiers comes steaming around the island and runs into a small group of tiny aircraft carriers escorted by a few destroyers and some destroyer escorts is all that stands between the Japanese task force and the transports unloading the troops off of Leyte. The final out come which I think in the annuals of the gerat lopsided battles of all times is what I think unprecedented. The little guy wins. We gave more damage out than received and caused the opposing force to retreat.

I emphasis retreat because the battle was well in hand for the Japanese and they turned and ran. SOmeone might say this is what happened at Roarkes Drift. I submit that the Zulus merely withdrew out of repect for the sheer bravery and tenacity of the troops there. Had they pushed it one more time we might have had another Alamo...whcih is also another hopeless battle. I would be interested on hearing other viewpoints and comments or presentations on other hopeless battles. I realy hope this topic is appealing and generates losts of discussion.

A couple of battles comes to mind along the lines of battles with little hope.

Two are from my home country. During the first landing of the the Japs on the east coast of Malaya, there was a small detachment of Punjabs if my very poor memory serves me correctly manning a bunker. Apparently they were not frontline battle hardened troops but 2nd. line, new recruit material but yet they inflicted a whole heck of damage on the Jap landing force and held back the numerically superior and better armed force for several hours before being overwhelmed .

The other was during the Emergency period (after WWII) of Malaya before it got its Independence. A small police detachment of mainly volunteers held out a large number of communist terrorists (CT as they were called at that time) before being overrunned completely after running out of ammo. Again I can't remember the numbers but likely to be a 10:1 situation if not more and in a way an Alamo in miniature. The incident was called Bukit Kepong after the area where it occured. 'Bukit' here means Hill.

What intrigues and amazes me is the thing that goes through the minds of these men knowing they are outgunned and outnumbered. I'm not sure what went through the mind of the men in the above 2 incidents as they were no survivors but from other similar accounts elsewhere it would seem the last thing on most men in similar dire conditions is not God, King or country or even family but apparently they continue fighting coz their buddy next to them is doing the same. The human spirit never ceases to amaze me.

Many other similar incidents as pockets of British, Aussies & Indian troops were outflanked, surrounded and outnumbered but fought on to the last men during the invasion of Malaya and Singapore during WWII. Many battles within a battle of little hope. Its a pity many of these and other such stories receive little recognition and probably many that will not come to light. Sorry for veering off topic.

Another would be the overunning of the Special Forces camp at Lang Vei, Vietnam. Definitely a last man last bullet situation in my opinion.

Thats my more than 2 cts.

How about Major Whittlesey's Lost Battalion? Cut off, surrounded, running out of ammunition and medical supplies, and being bombarded by his own artillery. He also had to battle a numerically superior force that was battle hardened and well trained. Enduring all of this because he knew the strategic location he held, and knew that holding it could end the war weeks rather than months earlier.

Pretty darn good if you ask me!

At the other end of the spectrum from Samar was the battles that ABDA, Australian, British, Dutch, American, naval forces fought around the Java sea in 1942. Those men fought a pretty hopeless delaying action against really overwhelming odds.

To me such battles are the height of courage. It's one thing to go into battle thinking, or at least hoping, you've got a pretty good chance of getting through it. I can't imagine what must be going through a person's mind when they are sure, or as sure as they can be, that they won't survive.

Another just came to mind, though most of the ships involved did in fact survive. The so called "death ride" of the German battlecruisers at Jutland. Five, relatively, lightly armed and armored ships charging some 30 or so heavy ships that had crossed their tee could be considered a hopeless battle.

Thermopylae was only ever a delaying battle, Leonidas, his 300 Spartiates and their several thousand allied troops and helots defended a choke point on the road into Greece to hold up the Persian army long enough for the Greeks to mobilise (and overcome their internal rivalries).

The decisive battle wasn't until the next year at Plataea where chaos (and dissent) among the Greek and allied contingents led to a botched night withdrawal, leaving a part of the Greek army isolated in front of the Persian camp. The Persians immediately attacked, unfortunately for them the part of the Greek army in front of them was the Spartan-led contingent, who almost destroyed the Persians before support arrived.

As for Rorke's Drift, the Zulu regiments that attacked had ignored an instruction from Cetshwayo that they shouldn't cross into Natal and shouldn't have been there at all!

The strangeness of history.

David

I thnk more and more when Hollywood presents us with the great militry movies that have been coming out that they have discovered the trait that beachbum points out. It is about the guy next to you not king or country or loved ones back home. Sure all those things matter but as seen time and time again with interviews we see daily here on TV with Iraqi vets is that a high percentage of them want to go back...not to kill or "save the Iraqies but because of their buddies. That would be the spirit of these lost cause battles. Thermopyle was to hold off the Persian forces to save the whole country from being overrun, but those guys fought to the death for each other rather than bloodying Xerses' nose and doing a fighting retreat which would have had a similar effect. The Alamo , Roarkes Drift I think it was all the same. Thoseof us who have served realize this. I look at all the Viet Nam vets returning and having to go through all that crap while exiting Travis AFB, or being spit at walking through airports in their uniforms. and still holding their heads up high. They know why they did what they did, and I think people of my generation (which were the offendors) are now just realizing it. My dad went through it when I was a teenager. I lived in the "who cares about the military era" now I think our nation has learned to appreciate and respect them. I hope that this attitude stay s around for a while.

Actually, it IS about king (or Queen)and Country and loved ones back home... And after that it is about the guy next to you!

Otherwise, it is pointless.

I saw this today on the History channel and thought I would add it to the list. It is a nameless battle as far as I know. It took place in Great Britain near London back in early AD (64 I think) Some female led a revolt against Roman rule. Budica I believe her name was. She was able to defeat one Legion and thus as she marched further along accumulated a very very large Army of Celts. Estimates seem to run between 100 and 200K. The roman guy was Plutonius who only could muster around 10K. He retreated until he found ground of his choosing. He set up and waited for her and her hoard. When the battle was over, The Romans had lost a few hundred killed versus nearly annhialating the Celtic horde. Proof that a well discilined Army whose only options were victory or death can accomplish the miracle.

Nameless because no-one has proved the location. There are a raft of suggestions, of varying dodginess, ranging from the Midlands to Virginia Water (near Heathrow). The Roman account of Boudica's uprising starts about halfway down the page here

Tacitus

EDIT: search for 'Suetonius' to find the start of the relevant section

David

One that comes to mind is the initial defense of Wake Island at the beginning of WW II in the Pacific. The Japanese expected an easy cakewalk and got their nose quite bloodied for their arrogance. Unfortunately, they returned with a MUCH larger and well equipped force and were able to take the island, and in the process were not exactly kind to many of those who were captured.

As things worked out had the follow on attack come only a day or so later, the garrison could have been reinforced but by the time the relief was close enough to do anything the island had fallen.

Tom

Steve, as a loyal "Texican" I thought I'd get your 2 cents on the Alamo, and how it relates to DJ's post on traits of a combat leader.

From most accounts Travis doesn't seem to be the kind of leader that would inspire men to "follow him anywhere." It seems that at most he was only able to motivate his men to stay a little while longer to delay the enemy while Texas gained strength, then in hopes of relief. At some point though this would not be enough. I'd say that once the siege took place the biggest factor that kept those men staying was the concept that they didn't want to let their comrades down.

Any thoughts?

That is most certainly the case. That is why I strongly believe that that is the most important first thinking reason behind these selfless acts. These guys had no country so to speak and a good portion of them didn't have families that were threatend. I also feel that the preponderance of the folks retunring for tours in Iraq also would list this as the number 1 reason why they are there.

The biggest problem here in Texas is the "de-mything" of the event. ONe has merely to see the John Wayne version and the Billy Bob version to see how may changes have occured recently. It took many years to get recognition of the number of hispanics that were part of the garrison and (gulp) Davy Crockett didn't go down swinging his broken rifle "Betsy" like a club

Hello,

In french military history, I guess the most hopeless battle were camerone. This battle made the reputation of the French foreign legion. The frenches were 65, the mexicans 2000..
Below a short history of the battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camerone

French Foreign Legion renew the exploit (with other troops of the 1st free french brigade) at Bir Hakeim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Hakeim

Bizarrely, no recent french film makers realized a movie on this two battles. maybee because we are not as good as hollywood to produce such movies...
Best,
Julien

Speaking of Rorke's Drift, there is a little know (outside South Africa that is) battle known as Vegkop. Here a bunch of settlers, 33 men and seven boys (the women and young folk reloaded the muskets), took on and beat ±5000 Matabele warriors.

At Blood River 470 settlers (again armed with muskets and two small cannons) defeated ±10 000 Zulu warriors.

What about Arnhem.