Saw this online. The current American Legion commander refers to himself as a "Vietnam Veteran" but only served at Ft. Dix, NJ from 1972-74. This would make him a Vietnam era veteran, but not a Vietnam vet.
I guess using this logic I could consider myself a Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc. veteran because I served in the same "eras". Although I am a DS veteran, I do not consider myself an Iraq veteran. That would confuse the distinction between a 1990-91 vet and a 2002-06+ vet.
Your thoughts?
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Sabot
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 02:02 AM UTC
redneck
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 02:44 AM UTC
Robin I understand what your saying but thinking about it I’m not sure what my opinion is.
My Grandfather considers himself a veteran of the Korean War yet was never to Korea.
During the war he was called back into service by the navy and sent to a base on the west coast where he work on parts for the ships that were being sent over.
Later he was transferred to a ship that was preparing to go to Korea but then it was transferred to the Atlantic fleet.
Considering he was called back into service to help the war effort I consider him a veteran of that war.
Of course I also really wouldn’t call everyone in the military now as veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan.
My Grandfather considers himself a veteran of the Korean War yet was never to Korea.
During the war he was called back into service by the navy and sent to a base on the west coast where he work on parts for the ships that were being sent over.
Later he was transferred to a ship that was preparing to go to Korea but then it was transferred to the Atlantic fleet.
Considering he was called back into service to help the war effort I consider him a veteran of that war.
Of course I also really wouldn’t call everyone in the military now as veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 03:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What if someone was called back to active duty, sent to a base somewhere out of harm's way (US, Germany, etc.) to train up soldiers to participate in combat operations in Iraq or Afghanistan? Using that logic, anyone who was recalled back on duty to support the war effort is now a veteran of the Iraq or Afghan wars. How is this different from a current servicemember doing the same duties but was not recalled?
Of course I also really wouldn’t call everyone in the military now as veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
redneck
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 04:42 AM UTC
Thats why I’m not sure what my opinion is.
mj
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 07:03 AM UTC
An interesting question, ...and I think I would let the individual answer it in his own way. Every job in the service is important in war-time. The efforts of people in combat are supported by those who make it possible for them to fight. If a man served in the rear-area in WWII, and told me he was a WWII vet, I would shake his hand and thank him for his service. If that's how he sees his service, it's okay with me. Me, I served in the Marine Corp., and never heard a shot fired in anger. While I am very proud of my service to my country, the only "veteran" I consider myself is one of several "O" clubs. But that's the way I see it.
I would, however, be extremely put out by someone who claims to be a "combat veteran", when they are not. That is an adjective which applies to very special people, who deserve a higher level of respect for having put their butts on the line. What was that part of Patton's speech to his troops...
"You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, 'Well, your Granddaddy shoveled [auto-censored] in Louisiana.' "
But, that's just the way I see it.
Mike
I would, however, be extremely put out by someone who claims to be a "combat veteran", when they are not. That is an adjective which applies to very special people, who deserve a higher level of respect for having put their butts on the line. What was that part of Patton's speech to his troops...
"You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, 'Well, your Granddaddy shoveled [auto-censored] in Louisiana.' "
But, that's just the way I see it.
Mike
white4doc
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Posted: Monday, December 04, 2006 - 03:51 PM UTC
I think people who exaggerate about who/what they are tend to have issues with self-esteem, or wish that they had done more while they were serving. Be proud that you served with honor, even if you were the permanent latrine orderly in your unit...I have had many people call me a Marine (I am Marine Corps regs, which means I get to wear Marine Alphas with the EGA and Marine shooting badges), I am careful to tell them that I am actually a Navy Corpsman. Just my .02$...
thathaway3
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I ran into the chapter president of the local Vietnam Vets at a Veteran's Day gathering at work about 6 years ago. As we were talking he invited me to the local chapter meeting. I said I didn't feel like I qualified on two counts.
The first was, since I was still in the Active Reserve, I didn't consider myself a "veteran".
And second, during the period that I was on Active Duty still considered part of the Vietnam War (roughly 1972-1975), I was in CONUS and then in Germany, and thus was never anywhere near Vietnam.
He made it VERY clear that as far as membership in the Vietnam Vets was concerned, ANY service in uniform (active duty or not) in any branch, and at any rank and specialty, at any time during that conflict (again roughly 1964-1975) at any location in the world qualified you for membership.
I did go to a meeting, introduced myself, got the "welcome home" from everybody (that was a bit strange) and spent a nice evening talking to several of the guys, but although THEY consider me a "Vietnam Vet", like Robin, I would NEVER refer to myself that way, but only as a Vietnam ERA Vet.
The same is true of Desert Storm. I was still in uniform as a Reservist, and was only on active duty for a grand total of 5 days and THAT only to help process one of the battalions in my brigade to go to Fort Benning to set up training.
I am considered a Desert Storm "era" vet, but again, I'd NEVER claim to be a Desert Storm Vet. There's a connotation to that phrase that a soldier understands to mean having served in the theater of operations.
Tom
The first was, since I was still in the Active Reserve, I didn't consider myself a "veteran".
And second, during the period that I was on Active Duty still considered part of the Vietnam War (roughly 1972-1975), I was in CONUS and then in Germany, and thus was never anywhere near Vietnam.
He made it VERY clear that as far as membership in the Vietnam Vets was concerned, ANY service in uniform (active duty or not) in any branch, and at any rank and specialty, at any time during that conflict (again roughly 1964-1975) at any location in the world qualified you for membership.
I did go to a meeting, introduced myself, got the "welcome home" from everybody (that was a bit strange) and spent a nice evening talking to several of the guys, but although THEY consider me a "Vietnam Vet", like Robin, I would NEVER refer to myself that way, but only as a Vietnam ERA Vet.
The same is true of Desert Storm. I was still in uniform as a Reservist, and was only on active duty for a grand total of 5 days and THAT only to help process one of the battalions in my brigade to go to Fort Benning to set up training.
I am considered a Desert Storm "era" vet, but again, I'd NEVER claim to be a Desert Storm Vet. There's a connotation to that phrase that a soldier understands to mean having served in the theater of operations.
Tom
mother
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Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 05:10 AM UTC
I usually stay away from posts like these, but I‘d like to add in a quick response. As for the commander calling himself a "Vietnam Veteran"…well I have to say “no”
Veteran…somebody who has served in the armed forces, (Reserve, National Guard or Active)
somebody who has been a member of one of the armed forces for many years and has seen a great deal of active service
Vietnam Veteran… conflict in Vietnam involving U.S. forces: a conflict in which the Communist forces of North Vietnam and guerrillas in South Vietnam fought against the non-Communist forces of South Vietnam and the United States.
It began in 1954 and ended in 1975 in a Communist victory.
See the key word here is Vietnam, a country where the United States went off to war to fight and protect the people of “Vietnam”. If he had went to “Vietnam” (regardless being on the front or in the rear) then I can see being called a "Vietnam Veteran”. Other than that he is just a veteran, plain and simple. I myself joined two organizations, AMVETS and the Cold War Veterans Association. I had only just joined with in the last 2 years, I have nothing but time and needed a little more extra curriculum in my spare time. I do go to meetings, not often, to see what’s new and to help out. Again I just wanted to add in a quick response…
Joe
Veteran…somebody who has served in the armed forces, (Reserve, National Guard or Active)
somebody who has been a member of one of the armed forces for many years and has seen a great deal of active service
Vietnam Veteran… conflict in Vietnam involving U.S. forces: a conflict in which the Communist forces of North Vietnam and guerrillas in South Vietnam fought against the non-Communist forces of South Vietnam and the United States.
It began in 1954 and ended in 1975 in a Communist victory.
See the key word here is Vietnam, a country where the United States went off to war to fight and protect the people of “Vietnam”. If he had went to “Vietnam” (regardless being on the front or in the rear) then I can see being called a "Vietnam Veteran”. Other than that he is just a veteran, plain and simple. I myself joined two organizations, AMVETS and the Cold War Veterans Association. I had only just joined with in the last 2 years, I have nothing but time and needed a little more extra curriculum in my spare time. I do go to meetings, not often, to see what’s new and to help out. Again I just wanted to add in a quick response…
Joe
Cob
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Posted: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:42 PM UTC
I agree with Robin and Tom. Although on active duty during both Gulf wars, I would never consider calling myself a Gulf war/Iraq vet. Gulf war era vet sounds like something I could personally live with but that is just me.
IMO as long as the guy doesn't misrepresent where he was stationed and what he did, he can call himself whatever he wants.
IMO as long as the guy doesn't misrepresent where he was stationed and what he did, he can call himself whatever he wants.
Sabot
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Posted: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 08:26 AM UTC
I do consider myself a Cold War vet, although we never officially fired a shot in anger. I did my one month border patrol and was there when the Wall came down and helped knock down a piece of it personally.
I do not ever think anyone will be able to convince me that I am an Iraqi War Vet because I served during the time of OIF. Unless I get sent there sometime in the future. Like I said, I did serve during the first Gulf War on the ground, but I do not consider myself an Iraq war vet. A DS vet yes, but not an Iraq war vet.
I do not ever think anyone will be able to convince me that I am an Iraqi War Vet because I served during the time of OIF. Unless I get sent there sometime in the future. Like I said, I did serve during the first Gulf War on the ground, but I do not consider myself an Iraq war vet. A DS vet yes, but not an Iraq war vet.
Whiskey6
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Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 10:26 PM UTC
In my view, a Viet Vet is one who has been officially awarded the Vietnam Service Medal. As I recall the requirements were a minimum of six months in "the area", including ships at sea. (I'm not usre how the Air Force handled the B-52's from Guam, but I imagine they qualified.)
Following this logic, a Navy Nurse aboard the USS Sancutary in Vietnamese waters for 6 months would be considered a Viet Vet. My wife who was a nurse at the Naval Hospital at St. Albans, New York, also caring for wounded Marines, does not consider herself a Viet Vet.
Similarly, I consider myself a Viet Vet for the year I spent "in country" with the 11th Marines....but not for the year I spent on Okinawa pushing supplies south to those that were fighting. On Okinawa, I was a "REMF" (Rear Echelon Muttha F....er)....complete with cold beer, pizza, Okinawan night clubs and scuba diving on the weekends. No shots fired in anger, save for a short side trip to Korea.
I would suggest looking for the yellow ribbon with the red stipes in his "official war rack". (This would not include any of the self-awarded "commemorative medals" some clowns are selling these days.)
Whiskey6
Following this logic, a Navy Nurse aboard the USS Sancutary in Vietnamese waters for 6 months would be considered a Viet Vet. My wife who was a nurse at the Naval Hospital at St. Albans, New York, also caring for wounded Marines, does not consider herself a Viet Vet.
Similarly, I consider myself a Viet Vet for the year I spent "in country" with the 11th Marines....but not for the year I spent on Okinawa pushing supplies south to those that were fighting. On Okinawa, I was a "REMF" (Rear Echelon Muttha F....er)....complete with cold beer, pizza, Okinawan night clubs and scuba diving on the weekends. No shots fired in anger, save for a short side trip to Korea.
I would suggest looking for the yellow ribbon with the red stipes in his "official war rack". (This would not include any of the self-awarded "commemorative medals" some clowns are selling these days.)
Whiskey6
spooky6
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 07:49 PM UTC
I notice that y'all are all Americans, and this practice of calling ALL former servicemen veterans seems to be peculiarly American.
In my part of the world (where we lean towards the Brit military system), the word 'veteran' refers to a WAR veteran. All other former servicemen are just that -- ex-servicemen. Therefore to be described as a veteran, one has to have participated in a war (not necessarily in combat), ie in a theatre of war. Having served as a marine in Washington DC during WW2 would not make one a veteran, but an ex-serviceman (noble in itself). My grandfather was in North Africa with the Ceylon Light Infantry, and is considered a veteran, but his brother who was the RSM back in Colombo isn't considered one (even though our capital was bombed by the Japanese).
My country is currently at war and I myself am a veteran of it. There are many ex-servicemen who claim to be veterans even though they have not served in the war zones. They are not considered veterans.
What can a soldier who served in Germany during the Vietnam War claim to be a veteran of? The word is used to describe veterans of war. You can't be a veteran of the Army -- just a former member of it.
In my part of the world (where we lean towards the Brit military system), the word 'veteran' refers to a WAR veteran. All other former servicemen are just that -- ex-servicemen. Therefore to be described as a veteran, one has to have participated in a war (not necessarily in combat), ie in a theatre of war. Having served as a marine in Washington DC during WW2 would not make one a veteran, but an ex-serviceman (noble in itself). My grandfather was in North Africa with the Ceylon Light Infantry, and is considered a veteran, but his brother who was the RSM back in Colombo isn't considered one (even though our capital was bombed by the Japanese).
My country is currently at war and I myself am a veteran of it. There are many ex-servicemen who claim to be veterans even though they have not served in the war zones. They are not considered veterans.
What can a soldier who served in Germany during the Vietnam War claim to be a veteran of? The word is used to describe veterans of war. You can't be a veteran of the Army -- just a former member of it.
TacFireGuru
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Posted: Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 09:11 PM UTC
Interesting point Spooky...it probably is a decidely American thing. For a perspective on this, take the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). If you served in the Armed Forces, during peace- or war-time, you are considered a Veteran (in the government's eyes).
As the majority pretty much say, I consider myself a Desert Storm Veteran, and a IFOR and SFOR Veteran as I served in-theater and on-ground. Before leaving Germany the last time, my unit deployed to Kosovo (KFOR). I was still in Germany for about a month (during this time, as I understand, my unit fired the first round of artillery in support of the Russians since WWII). I was still a member of the unit, but DO NOT consider myself a KFOR Veteran simple because I was not there.
I'm also a Disabled Veteran (rated 50%) and Retiree. On 31 October 2001, I retired. Sometime in August I went on "retirement" leave. Well, guess where I was September 11th? At my civilian job. Yet, because I was not "officially" retired, I was authorized a second National Defense Service Medal and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal (I believe the effective date for these was 11 September 2001). Though I have the "Service" medal, I DO NOT consider myself an OIF or GWOT Veteran.
If some one told me they were a Vietnam Veteran or GWOT Veteran, I would assume/believe that they were actually there in the "thick of it." If they said they were an "Era" vet, then the assumption would be that they were active-duty/serving elsewhere.
Like Mike before stated, tell me you were/are a "Combat Veteran," then there's only one assumption; you were in-theater, on-ground, and in the thick of it. Period.
My two pennies on this.
Mike
As the majority pretty much say, I consider myself a Desert Storm Veteran, and a IFOR and SFOR Veteran as I served in-theater and on-ground. Before leaving Germany the last time, my unit deployed to Kosovo (KFOR). I was still in Germany for about a month (during this time, as I understand, my unit fired the first round of artillery in support of the Russians since WWII). I was still a member of the unit, but DO NOT consider myself a KFOR Veteran simple because I was not there.
I'm also a Disabled Veteran (rated 50%) and Retiree. On 31 October 2001, I retired. Sometime in August I went on "retirement" leave. Well, guess where I was September 11th? At my civilian job. Yet, because I was not "officially" retired, I was authorized a second National Defense Service Medal and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal (I believe the effective date for these was 11 September 2001). Though I have the "Service" medal, I DO NOT consider myself an OIF or GWOT Veteran.
If some one told me they were a Vietnam Veteran or GWOT Veteran, I would assume/believe that they were actually there in the "thick of it." If they said they were an "Era" vet, then the assumption would be that they were active-duty/serving elsewhere.
Like Mike before stated, tell me you were/are a "Combat Veteran," then there's only one assumption; you were in-theater, on-ground, and in the thick of it. Period.
My two pennies on this.
Mike
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 10:20 AM UTC
Touchy stuff, for sure.
I am an American veteran, 1977-1996. I never was in combat, but I did serve and I could have gone to combat anytime my government decided it was time.
I do consider myself a veteran of the Cold War, as anyone who served in Germany, Korea or Italy ought to. Especially those who served in West Germany or South Korea -- many of us were eye-to-eye with the other side from time to time.
In fact, I personally "exchanged shots" with the East German army -- I took pictures of him and he took pictures of me near Bergen Duum. One of my pics of him and his officer ended up in an issue of EurArmy Magazine. I imagine that his pics of me ended up in a Stazi file (wish I could see that file!).
During the Cold War, our life expectancy once "the balloon went up" was a matter of minutes or seconds for most combat units in Europe or Korea. In Europe, they blinked first and we won. Korea is still a work in progress.
Spooky, in our armed forces, when someone is referred to as "a former service member" rather than a veteran, it usually means they served under less than honorably or they somehow otherwise did not qualify for veterans benefits (such as very short term of service).
I am an American veteran, 1977-1996. I never was in combat, but I did serve and I could have gone to combat anytime my government decided it was time.
I do consider myself a veteran of the Cold War, as anyone who served in Germany, Korea or Italy ought to. Especially those who served in West Germany or South Korea -- many of us were eye-to-eye with the other side from time to time.
In fact, I personally "exchanged shots" with the East German army -- I took pictures of him and he took pictures of me near Bergen Duum. One of my pics of him and his officer ended up in an issue of EurArmy Magazine. I imagine that his pics of me ended up in a Stazi file (wish I could see that file!).
During the Cold War, our life expectancy once "the balloon went up" was a matter of minutes or seconds for most combat units in Europe or Korea. In Europe, they blinked first and we won. Korea is still a work in progress.
Spooky, in our armed forces, when someone is referred to as "a former service member" rather than a veteran, it usually means they served under less than honorably or they somehow otherwise did not qualify for veterans benefits (such as very short term of service).
spooky6
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 02:16 PM UTC
Certainly it seems that the main difference between our system and the American one is one of terminology. What we refer to as an ex-serviceman you refer to as a veteran. What we refer to as a veteran you refer to as a war veteran. But the fact that is the same is that to be called a Vietnam veteran or a Cold War veteran, one would have to participate in said war, in a military capacity.
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
David, your country's definition of a veteran vs. a former/ex-serviceman are the same as ours. Both my stepfather and father-in-law served in the 1950s in the Army when we still had mandatory military service. They both served for 3 years but not in combat and neither of them consider themselves a "vet".Certainly it seems that the main difference between our system and the American one is one of terminology. What we refer to as an ex-serviceman you refer to as a veteran. What we refer to as a veteran you refer to as a war veteran. But the fact that is the same is that to be called a Vietnam veteran or a Cold War veteran, one would have to participate in said war, in a military capacity.
Our country has an interesting phenomenon. People trying to overstate their military service. I think this is due to the fact that many WW2 vets are almost out of public political life and many Vietnam era vets did not openly show pride in their wartime service.
There have been a few publicized cases of people trying take credit for things they never did. The problem became so bad that legislation was introduced to penalize those who commit this sort of fraud. The Stolen Valor Act of 2005 has been passed by both Houses of Congress and just awaits the President's signature to become law.
Quoted Text
Stolen Valor Act of 2005 - Amends the federal criminal code to expand the prohibition against wearing, manufacturing, or selling military decorations or medals without legal authorization to prohibit purchasing, soliciting, mailing, shipping, importing, exporting, producing blank certificates of receipt for, advertising, trading, bartering, or exchanging such decorations or medals without authorization.
Prohibits falsely representing oneself as having been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the Armed Forces or any of the service medals or badges.
Increases penalties for violations if the offense involves a distinguished service cross, an Air Force Cross, a Navy Cross, a silver star, or a Purple Heart.
Cavalry
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Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:25 PM UTC
BG Burkett does us all a fine service in his well-researched and highly readable "Stolen Valor." If you get a chance to read this superb book, I would encourage you to take it one bite at a time. There were several times in reading it that I got so mad I wanted to scream. A person serving the Nation deserve recognition. One who lies about their background or twist it to attain a end deserves our contempt.
spooky6
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The Legion's top spokesman, Joe March, backed Morin's position. He said any current service member stationed in the United States at present could claim to be an Iraq war veteran.
I guess they should go ahead and give Purple Hearts to everyone in the Army since they served at the same time as their wounded comrades, and Medals of Honour to everyone in a unit where someone won the medal.
How does all this fit in with the Veterans of Foreign Wars? Surely one can't be a member of that if one served in New Jersey.
If I was that bugger, I'd resign in shame.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:02 PM UTC
Part of his justification, according to a report on one of the local TV stations (his home town is just across the river from me) is that the Massachusetts veteran's preference rules do not include the phrase "vietnam era veterans."
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:36 PM UTC
David, the VFW has a stricter requirement to get in. I've been a lifetime member for around 15 years. To get in the servicemember must have been awarded a campaign medal or badge from a list of qualifying military actions (VFW Eligibility Info). Notice on page two of the info guide, earning the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal (which every US serviceman earns for being on active duty at this time) does not earn membership, but the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal (which is awarded to servicemen who deploy to the area of operations) does.
One interesting thing to note, while Massachusetts may have more lax definitions, my home state of Vermont has stricter veteran definitions. When I registered my car there in 2003, I noticed they now offered Veterans plates. I asked if I could get a set for my car, but since I did not have discharge papers (I am still on active duty) I could not get Veterans plates. They also had VFW plates so I asked for them instead. All I needed for those plates was a copy of my membership card (which I had on me). I did comment to the DMV folks that I could not be a VFW member without being a veteran.
More than likely, the American Legion commander is not a member of the VFW, which is why he's in the American Legion vs. the VFW.
One interesting thing to note, while Massachusetts may have more lax definitions, my home state of Vermont has stricter veteran definitions. When I registered my car there in 2003, I noticed they now offered Veterans plates. I asked if I could get a set for my car, but since I did not have discharge papers (I am still on active duty) I could not get Veterans plates. They also had VFW plates so I asked for them instead. All I needed for those plates was a copy of my membership card (which I had on me). I did comment to the DMV folks that I could not be a VFW member without being a veteran.
More than likely, the American Legion commander is not a member of the VFW, which is why he's in the American Legion vs. the VFW.
Cavalry
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:43 PM UTC
Amazing how they get caught up in their lies. Sign of a true politician.
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Especially his statement, Amazing how they get caught up in their lies. Sign of a true politician.
Quoted Text
“When we came home, life was a little different,” Morin said, according to a transcript of the interview obtained by the Globe. “We do not want to see any veteran ever returning to what we did, so we’ll be there to be welcoming them home with open arms.”
He never left New Jersey. What's this "we" stuff?
Cavalry
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Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextEspecially his statement,Amazing how they get caught up in their lies. Sign of a true politician.Quoted Text“When we came home, life was a little different,” Morin said, according to a transcript of the interview obtained by the Globe. “We do not want to see any veteran ever returning to what we did, so we’ll be there to be welcoming them home with open arms.”
He never left New Jersey. What's this "we" stuff?
I just downloaded your quotes and posted them on the office bulletin board. The universal "we" and "they" ill defined but always good smoke cover....
Monsoon
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Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 05:40 AM UTC
Sounds like my last Wing Commander. During the annual dining out, he was saying stuff like, "When we deployed..." until someone in the back yelled, "BullS**t!!". He corrected himself after that.
barron
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KitMaker Network: 66 Posts
Posted: Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 06:52 PM UTC
Myself like Robin am a cold war vet . I did my time in Germany From 1985-1988. I was an instructor teaching 19K Bnoc at Ft. Knox during Desert Storm. I don't consider myself a ODS vet because I wasn't in the theater of operation, The same goes for Gernada, Panama, and the Balkins. I was in at the time these actions happened , but I wasn't there. 
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