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Hollywood vs. Reality
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 09:22 AM UTC
I was just re-watching the opening of "Courage Under Fire" and I was struck by how unlikely the friendly fire scenario seemed in the movie. Can anyone tell me if any M1's were hit by friendly fire in Desert Storm? Also doesn't the M1's targeting system have some kind of friendly target ID that attempts to differentiate between friendlies and hostiles?

Jim
M4Nut
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:21 AM UTC
Jim,
I have not seen any statement's about our losing any M1's in the Gulf war but I recently watched a show on the History channel about the M1. One of the people talking about the tank (he was involved with either the development or use of the vehicle, can't remember which) made the statement that none of the M1's lost in the Gulf war was due to enemy fire. Now that statement struck me as a back door statement that we did lose some to friendly fire. I also recently watched "Courage Under Fire" again and feel that a freindly fire incident could have happened as pictured. As to an IFF system on tanks, I don't believe any were implimented at the time.
Eric
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:43 AM UTC
Every M1A1 disabled during Desert Storm was due to friendly fire. No M1A1 crewmembers were killed.

At the time, there was no IFF system for tanks, even most of the systems being tested since are not fool proof. At 3,000 meters (roughly 2 miles), the crew is aiming at a hot spot on the horizon. Most crews can ID a vehicle at about 2,000 meters. In the mid-90s, a lovered panel was added to the sides of friendly vehicles to create a cool spot on them, it doesn't work at extreme ranges. During Operation Intrinsic Action in mid-1992, we added IR strobe lights to the back of the tanks and IFVs to reduce the chance of fratricide; however, the IR strobe light is visible to enemy passive night vision devices.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm
Remember, the "targeting system" on a tank is a 23 yr old sergeant's eyeball backed up by a 22-36 yr old tank commander's eyeball. The crew acquires and identifies the target, the gunner aims, lazes the target to determine range, the commander verifies the range and target and then gives the command to fire. The fire control system determines the wind speed, target speed (if it is moving), speed of the tank itself, and adjusts the position of the gun. The gunner must keep the target dead center in his sight at the moment he squeezes the trigger.
TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 10:58 AM UTC
What, the commander doesn't stick a wet finger in the air?
Jeeeeeeez.....(shaking head with dissapointment)

Next you'll tell me the crew sticks their feet out a little hole in the bottom of the tank for locomotion!

:-)
staff_Jim
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:15 AM UTC
Eric and Rob,
Thanks for the response. Nice to know that no one was killed in those incidents. A testiment to the M1's armor and design??

Good stuff as ussual Rob.... 39 till your a General!!

Jim
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Posted: Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:18 AM UTC
There were soldiers killed in the Bradleys hit by the M1s as well as the Bradley hit by the Apache.
ARENGCA
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Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 01:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What, the commander doesn't stick a wet finger in the air?
Jeeeeeeez.....(shaking head with dissapointment)



Actually, the tank does almost just that! The wind sensor on the turret actually allows the fire control system to compensate for cross-wind drift. This sophistication is why we can get 1st-round kills at 3000m, and two-round kills out to 4500m (called Kentucky windage, and not often practiced in peacetime).

We were told the same thing about the M1 losses, that all were "friendly-fire". Additionally, only two were catastrophic, causing significant injuries to crewmen. The rest just blew out the blast panels in the turret and took the tank out of the fight (no ammo!). Of the two catastrophic (both caused by aircraft), one crew had inoperative (or crew defeated, no one knows) ammo doors in the turret, and the other had serious hull damage.

I have heard two stories about M1s that were hit by Iraqi tanks. Both reported that the Iraqi projectiles entered the front of the armor boxes on the turret, but did not penetrate. Both tanks stayed in the game, but were later sequestered and the crews debriefed about what they saw inside the armor boxes. This is second-hand (unverified), from a guy who was friends with one of the crewmen, and knew the other crew.
Kencelot
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Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:19 AM UTC
While this has little to do with the body of this post but more to do with it's title, I somehow missed this little goodie when I posted the Hist. Chan.'s showings. It's the Harry Awards, which pays homage to the movie which did the best at portraying history.

On tonight at 10:00PM...ooops I mean @ 2200hrs. The Harry Awards 2002

In The History Channel's homage to Hollywood, esteemed guests review historical films from the previous year and award our very own "Harry" to the movie that contributed the most to the public's understanding and appreciation of history. The award is named for Herodotus, the Father of History. Includes clips and interviews with many of the actors and directors. TV G
:-)