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Allied Troops v Axis Troops
DutchBird
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Posted: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


However, there is no denying that many US and UK forces went eye-to-eye with the Wehrmacht on equal terms (and often at a disadvantage) and beat them, at all stages of the war. The pre-war doubt that Western Democracy could produce warriors on par with Fascism turned out to be wrong.



Hi Fred,

your post leaves me with one big question (not implying that you are surely wrong).

I seriously wonder where you get the idea from that the Allied troops were at a disadvantage against the Germans... at least in the later stages of the war (post 1942/1943 in the West, arguably a bit later in the East).


To my knowledge the only advantage the Germans might have had is that in defense they had a chance to choose their terrain. Besides the firepower at the squad/platoon level (machineguns and such).

To my knowledge they were consistently outnumbered in men, tanks, artillery, were equal in the air (post mid 1944 they had no aircover at all for all but a week for the rest of the war). They practically had lost all initaitive at the strategic and operational level.

So considereing this, I frankly do not see the reason why the Allies in the West (or in general) were at a disadvantage to Germany on the battlefield? They more or less outnumbered the Germans in every categorie on every front from 1942/1943 onwards
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Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:24 AM UTC
Yes, all soldiers are tough once they've been in battle and well trained. To me though, the Japanese infantryman is likened to the Vietnames Viet Cong or NVA. They subsided on miserable food, Fought in horrific conditions of jungles and despite the overwhelming advantage in fire power, fire support from the air and sea, logistics and manpower the US had, they gave an incredible account for themselves.

Yea, sure they didn't develop Armor and when the Russians came at them in August 1945 with tank armies and massive amounts of battle hardened troops used to fighting the Wehrmacht the Japanese were overwhelmed, I would refer you to the US vs. Iraq in both the wars or a standard Sherman tank going one on one with a King Tiger at 1,000 yards head on.

To get back to the very first post, no I don't think the Japanese were the best and would lean towards the majority thinking that overall the German soldier was the best. He was the best trained and had equipment, and most importantly the ability to innovate and adapt to conditions. The US learned a lot from this and consequently our troops are trained in this manner. I served under this system in the 70's and what I've seen in the combat operations over the past decade have me saying the United States has the best ever !!!
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Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 05:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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In a recent issue of Military History or a similar magazine, there was an article made up of a 1944 US Army survey of captured Germans,



Don't take this as a put-down or anything, but I would look a bit askance at some of those wartime surveys which often had a lot of propoganda to flavour them. Most indications are that the Germans would much rather have fought on the western than eastern fronts.



Hi Spooky,

No put-down taken. A good point. However, IIRC we conducted the survey not for self-congratulations, but as a self critique, as "how can we be better?" About fighting the western allies or the Soviets, they prefered fighting the Reds except for the no-quarter brutality of the Eastern Front; fighting in the west was harder because of more innovative, flexible CCC more akin to them.


Quoted Text

I seriously wonder where you get the idea from that the Allied troops were at a disadvantage against the Germans... Besides the firepower at the squad/platoon level (machineguns and such).

So considereing this, I frankly do not see the reason why the Allies in the West (or in general) were at a disadvantage to Germany on the battlefield? They more or less outnumbered the Germans in every categorie on every front from 1942/1943 onwards



Hi Harm,

We were at a disadvantage initially because we were green troops VS the preceived supermen who had conquered most of the western world.

Our firepower at the squad/platoon level was considered superior. The WH had the superb MG 34 and MG 42, but otherwise their squads were 8-10 Landers with 5-shot Kar 98 rifles and an MP 40; we had 10-12 (eventually 12-16) man squads with the superb 8-shot M-1 Garand, 2-4 BARs, 2-4 SMG, and frequently an organic couple of bazookas.

I addressed that the Germans were almost always outnumbered. That is part of it. As badly outnumbered, out-equipped, and out-supplied as they were, they still put up a serious fight. Consider Operation Totalize, the attack against Falaise in Aug, ' 44. Three infantry div., three armored Div. and a Polish armored Div against the burnt-out SS Hitler Jugend Div. and two infantry divisions which were practically without transport. It took the Allies almost 3 weeks to break through.
DutchBird
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Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 07:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Hi Harm,

We were at a disadvantage initially because we were green troops VS the preceived supermen who had conquered most of the western world.

Our firepower at the squad/platoon level was considered superior. The WH had the superb MG 34 and MG 42, but otherwise their squads were 8-10 Landers with 5-shot Kar 98 rifles and an MP 40; we had 10-12 (eventually 12-16) man squads with the superb 8-shot M-1 Garand, 2-4 BARs, 2-4 SMG, and frequently an organic couple of bazookas.

I addressed that the Germans were almost always outnumbered. That is part of it. As badly outnumbered, out-equipped, and out-supplied as they were, they still put up a serious fight. Consider Operation Totalize, the attack against Falaise in Aug, ' 44. Three infantry div., three armored Div. and a Polish armored Div against the burnt-out SS Hitler Jugend Div. and two infantry divisions which were practically without transport. It took the Allies almost 3 weeks to break through.



Hi JPTRR,

thanks for the reply and points well taken. And I guess as far as the disadvantages being there or not for either side goes, it is IMHO mostly a matter of how important you judge the various factors to be. Because I have the feeling that by and large those who have participated in the threat agree on the factors that come into play....

Does inexperience (and the psychological factor) outweigh the advantage you have in numbers in almost any category or not? If it does at the beginning (ie before Alamein), when does that moment stop?

Or even more precarious, to what degree does this inexperience/psychological factor explain the tough times the Allies had to crack the German nut? Or even to what degree is it an explanation or valid reason (instead of ie utter stupidity) for mistakes made?

I guess these things are very subjective, and will be a source for endless debate (when people respect eachother) or endless screaming matches (when that has stopped).

This subjectivity of weights attached to various factors, plus the time-line of history itself will make it very hard, if not impossible to determine for instance what the best division was... If you want to determine what the best "whatever" was, I guess, you either have to stick to very general areas (like "average soldier" or so) or specific topics (tank, airplane, etc). And even then you will have a hard time.... for instance the remark about the 82nd Airborne earlier in this post could be subject for a very tough debate (in the most positive sense possible).
spooky6
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Posted: Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No put-down taken. A good point. However, IIRC we conducted the survey not for self-congratulations, but as a self critique, as "how can we be better?" About fighting the western allies or the Soviets, they prefered fighting the Reds except for the no-quarter brutality of the Eastern Front; fighting in the west was harder because of more innovative, flexible CCC more akin to them.



Of course, Fred, I didn't mean that it was a piece of pure propoganda or something. But often military surveys are not as objective as they should be, and are sometimes used to justify an argument. I might venture that if the reasoning is the east was easier in tactics, that the survey was conducted on the views of German officers rather than ordinary soldiery.


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and what I've seen in the combat operations over the past decade have me saying the United States has the best ever !!!



This is highly arguable. Man for man, I'd give it to the Brits or Israelis.

While this is all very interesting and enjoyable, it's a bit . The original question was Allied troops vs Axis. I think that looking at the average infantryman or tanker of the time, the award would still go to the German.
JPTRR
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The original question was Allied troops vs Axis. I think that looking at the average infantryman or tanker of the time, the award would still go to the German.



I tend to agree.

However, there are a lot of intangibles. The Wehrmacht and SS of 1944-45 was not the same caliber of pre-1944. Due to attrition the units were full of replacements (same for the UK forces). In 1942, SS-Das Reich (?, or was it another--I just read about it in Armor Battles of the Waffen SS) lost 3/4 of its strength.

I just read Kurt "PanzerMeyer's" Grenediers and he commented how even the SS was absorbing, as replacements, non-volunteer displaced Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine troops.

One of the intangibles is the unknown factor based on a previous comment: the Germans were mainly defensive after mid-1943. We can only guess how determined the British or USA would have fought defensively if their home soil was invaded, and they were looking at a harsh occupation.
JPTRR
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Does inexperience (and the psychological factor) outweigh the advantage you have in numbers in almost any category or not? If it does at the beginning (ie before Alamein), when does that moment stop?

Or even more precarious, to what degree does this inexperience/psychological factor explain the tough times the Allies had to crack the German nut? Or even to what degree is it an explanation or valid reason (instead of ie utter stupidity) for mistakes made?



All valid.

In the 1940 Blitzkrieg, both Franch and Britain, individually, had more AFVs than the WH. The average French tank had thicker armor and a more powerful gun. Yet the Panzerwaffe trounced them both. Not always by nose-to-nose shootouts, but by superior tactics and employment borne of superior doctrine.

Same for the Royal Tank Rgmts in North Africa.

Definitely against the Red Army. How could it be that the Soviet armored units, increasingly equipped with the excellent T-34 which [at normal combat ranges] was almost impervious to the fire of the KwK 50mm of the PzKfw III (the most numerous AFV until 1943) were defeated by the WH?

This is valid in that units with inferior equipment and numbers have demonstrated time and again, that properly lead/trained/motivated, they can defeat units that are superior--on paper.
Mahross
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:14 AM UTC
It is interesting to note the bashing the British get in the historiography of WW2. Constantly we read, in the popular histories, how the average Tommy did not have the metal of his US or German contemporary. This is especially true in the works of Max Hastings. He started this trend in his work Overlord and has more recently expanded this criticism in Armageddon. A book which IMHO should be used as nothing more than a doorstop as it adds nothing to the debate on combat effectiveness in WW2.

However, there has more recently been a shift in this trend, similar to the shift in the views of British performance of WW1. Stephen Hart has written that British reliance on firepower was not borne out of the fact that British units did not have the metal for the fight but much rather it was a political decision to conserve casualties. It must be remembered that by 1944 the British Army, especially it's infantry, was facing a severe manpower shortage. Therefore, Hart has argued that it was natural for the British to rely on what they had the most of i.e. firepower. The method which Montgomery used was universally known as 'Colossal Cracks' in which he used to use massive amounts of firepower in order to breach the enemies’ front line and cause a breakthrough. While orthodox historians would argue that this was caused by Monty's WW1 experience what they have tended to neglect what I mentioned earlier the political factors. Not only was Britain facing this issue but it also did not wish its Allies to know the extent of the problem and therefore make them more of a minority than they were arguably becoming by 1944.

Both Timothy Harrison - Place and David French have looked at the British Army's training methods in order to analyse their combat effectiveness. In their analyses they have tended to conclude that British problem in the North - West European Campaign were not caused by a lack of metal but a misunderstanding of the experiences gained in the war so far. The experience of the desert had shown British analysts that in, for example, armoured formations infantry and armour found it difficult to operate together and therefore, should be separated. Hence the problems found during the early stages of the Normandy Campaign, most notable Operations Perch and Goodwood. It was the misinterpretations of lessons not combat effectiveness that led to the early losses in Europe. However, as both historians have noticed this was soon solved in the army unlike in the US army. Eventually the Armoured Divisions started operating in battle groups and combined infantry, armour and artillery in an effective combat team.

However, while the US Army made use of its Combat Commands these eventually became ad - hoc brigade style commands and US commands were more resistant to British Commanders to give up the units that had been assigned to command. This was probably the fault of McNair for not integrating all necessary support arms within the divisions. Thus, when units such as TD's were attached combat commands became dependent on them and therefore, rigid in its structure.

In terms of British armour, John Buckley has recently completed a study into its effectiveness in the Normandy campaign. While, he follows a similar line to the authors mentioned above in terms of operating procedure he does make one very important point which tends to, IMHO, destroy the arguments of Hastings et al. That is in attack German units tended to suffer just as high casualties as there British counterparts. Therefore, the traditional argument that the British suffered high casualties because of in competency can not be applied because the Germans suffered just as high casualties as the British. For example, when 10SS transferred to the American front for the Mortain counter - attack they suffered somewhere in the region of 90% casualties in their armour.

Just my two cents.

Bibliography:

Buckley, John, British Armour in the Normandy Campaign (Abingdon: Frank Cass, 2004)

French, David, Raising Churchill's Army: The British Army and the War Against Germany, 1919-1945 (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001)

Harrison – Place, Timothy, Military Training in the British Army, 1940-1944: From Dunkirk to D-day (London: Frank Cass, 2000)

Hart, Stephen, Montgomery and Colossal Cracks: The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-1945 (Westview: Greenwood Press, 2000)

Ross
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:22 PM UTC
Hi Guys
What a wonderful amount of information has come from these threads and very interesting points.
I suppose my initial thread was born from long conversations with my Dad and other vets who served on the sharpe end.
I found very much that to a man they had a very strong admeration for the the "other soldier".
I sat once with my dad and some German vets in Normandy and listend to them talk what an experience that was .
What appeared to come from it was very much what i mentioned earlier was a sense of unity even though they were at that time foes,neither group intimated that one was better than the other.
I have read many books and the perspective put out about British troops is at time wholely unfair ..lack metal...resistant to engage...holding back ,it is very easy for some of these authors to sit back and discribe the actions of groups and individuals after the event when at times they base there observations on books they have read and what they have studied,and for many combat for them was a TV series in the 70s.
I have walked many an area were these young men came of age both German American Britsh Polish Indean,Normandy to Monti Casino and it has always had a most profound effect on me.
I feel i will stick with the memorys and first hand accounts of the PATISCIPANTS from these awesome individuals who have no books to sell or no axe to grind and iam sure if you were to ask these 80 year + who was the best you would get a look that that would make it quite clear that the metal is still there and that there is a bond betwen adversarys that only Having Been There can one understand.
Chers Chris
spooky6
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 08:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It is interesting to note the bashing the British get in the historiography of WW2. Constantly we read, in the popular histories, how the average Tommy did not have the metal of his US or German contemporary. This is especially true in the works of Max Hastings. He started this trend in his work Overlord and has more recently expanded this criticism in Armageddon. A book which IMHO should be used as nothing more than a doorstop as it adds nothing to the debate on combat effectiveness in WW2.



Ross, Hastings is hardly a critic of the British soldier, and if you read his 'Battle for the Falklands', you'll see what I mean. And if you think his is 'popular history', it isn't very popular is it. Would be interesting to hear where the doorstop theory comes from.

As for the bashing of the British Tommy, I have seen very little of it, quite the opposite in fact. Often defeat is celebrated as some sort of victory. And not just in WW2. Eg: most accounts of the Zeebrugge Raid of WW1 miss the point that it achieved nothing.

But I digress. Hastings, Asher, and many others are not 'bashing' the Tommy, just pointing out how badly led he often was. Nowhere have I read of anyone questioning the courage or commitment of the British soldier.


Quoted Text

That is in attack German units tended to suffer just as high casualties as there British counterparts. Therefore, the traditional argument that the British suffered high casualties because of in competency can not be applied because the Germans suffered just as high casualties as the British. For example, when 10SS transferred to the American front for the Mortain counter - attack they suffered somewhere in the region of 90% casualties in their armour.



Well, post D-day the Germans were facing overwhelming odds and bereft of air cover, and they were bound to suffer accordingly. The point is, the British (particularly in the first half of the war) would have saved thousands of lives if their officers were better picked and trained.

Often the British soldier pulled something out of the hat and saved the day in spite of his officers, rather than because of them. The soldiers were fit, tough, and well trained (maybe not as well as the German soldier, but certainly better than the French, Russian or Italian). Their officers were another story. Fortunately this is not true today, and we see a British officer corps that is arguably one of the most professional in the world.
Mahross
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Posted: Friday, April 14, 2006 - 09:03 PM UTC
David

There is a difference between what Hastings think of the British in WW2 and in the Falklands War. There is a 37 year difference between the wars, plenty of time I think for changes too occur. As for a so - called doorstep theory it is generally accepted in the academic world that hastings has something to grind against the British. Note his work in RAF Bomber Command. This is full of emotive phrases and does not attempt to analyse the war from a neutral standpoint. When I mean 'popular' I am referring to books that you will see in Borders or Waterstones. The books I have noted you will be lucky to get on the high street. I do not think he is popular. I actual think his opinion and his 'style' of history do not not make for good reading, but they do sell. For example compare the sales at Amazon.co.uk; Hasting's Armageddon has a sales rank of 77110. Whereas John Buckley's book I cited has a sales rank of 329228. This is a big difference, thus showing that Hastings' work gets to a much larger audience. However this does not mean it is right. I know John Buckley and know for a fact that he spent about 5 years researching this book. I'm sure Hasting's did not take that long to produce Armaggeddon. As to Hastings not liking the British, I quote from Harrison - Place's work:

'...Hastings highlight the poor standard of co - operation between tanks and infantry among British troops and the reluctance of the infantry to fight without high - volumes of fire - power in support or continue the struggle when their officers became casualties...Hastings' interpretation...holds that Montgomery's generalship was constrained by the mediocre tactical qualities of his troops.'

Now if that is not an indicment i'm not sure what is.

As to armour losses. Yes it is true that German units were slowly declining in quality but the units the British faced in Normandy were of a very high standard. Generally the SS, up to the 12SS, and the Heer's Panzer Division's managed to mantain a fairly high quality despite the issues facing Germany in 1944. Also it is generally true that all through the war forces attacking generally sufferred high casualties, this is because they are attacking in - trenched position. This is why after the war in seeking a doctrine to defend against the mass of the Warsaw Pact forces NATO looked to the defensive experiences of WW2 as the model upon which to base their doctrine.

Ross
spooky6
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Posted: Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 02:27 AM UTC
I wouldn't use sales as a statement of accuracy either way, Ross. Low sales doesn't mean accuracy anymore than high. And just because one book is available on the high street and the other isn't means nothing either way. I also find it improbable that Hastings would have an axe to grind against Brits of a particular era and not of another. And even if that analysis of Hastings is accurate, I notice that there isn't any real criticism of the view by Place.

Ross, let's disagree on Hastings, but we're talking apples and oranges. You seem compelled to defend the British soldier when no one is attacking him here. Throughout this thread my criticism has been of the British company and field grade officers.

The fact that Britain didn't look at military training in the same manner as Germany did is pretty clear, and leads me to my earlier conclusion.

BTW, Ross, Hastings isn't alone in his views, check out Anthony Beevor. Surely you don't suggest he's a 'popular' guy too?

Mahross
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 01:31 AM UTC
David

I would be interested in hearing what you think is 'popular' as I would have thought that sales is one way of defining it. I mean we define music in that way. Yes I do think think Beevor is a 'popular' historian. If memory serves me right when Stalingrad first came out it went it the top 10 bestsellers list for non - fiction. To me that is popular.

As for opinion of British officers, I find it very interesting and I would like to know where it comes from because in everything that I have read I find no serious criticism of British officers at the battalion level. Even higher level officer have never seriously been criticised, ok Monty is the expection but the majority of that comes from American writers such as Carol D'Este. Yes some were dissmissed during Normandy but the majority of these came from veteran units that had served through N. Africa and Italy and were, according the reports, probably suffering from fatigue and battle exhaustion.

Even Liddell Hart, someone who is noted to be critical of the British Army of WW2, is noted to have said that instead of being 'Lions led by Donkeys' the army was 'Donkeys led by Lions'. Liddell Hart still had issues with the higher command which in light of recent research such as the ones I mentioned earlier, especially Stephen Harts work, is propbably unjustified.

Ross

P.S. This is a nice interesting debate
spooky6
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

David

I would be interested in hearing what you think is 'popular' as I would have thought that sales is one way of defining it. I mean we define music in that way. Yes I do think think Beevor is a 'popular' historian. If memory serves me right when Stalingrad first came out it went it the top 10 bestsellers list for non - fiction. To me that is popular.



Ok, this is all getting a bit tangled :-) . MY definition of 'popular' when it comes to history, is stuff that people are comfortable with and want to hear lots of (like Stephen Ambrose), usually follows self-justifying current views and isn't necessarily very accurate.

I get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that you denote 'popular' as high sales, and that somehow high sales mean inaccuracies. Which I fail to see. I think you can have high sales and be right, just as you can be obscure and wrong. One has nothing to do with the other.
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 01:11 PM UTC

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Hence the problems found during the early stages of the Normandy Campaign, most notable Operations Perch and Goodwood.


Sorry, Ross, Goodwood is not a good example of poor interaction between tanks & infantry, as it was conceived by the 2nd Army commander Miles Dempsey as an operation that deliberately used tank units (of which there was a surplus in Normandy at the time) over infantry units (which were in short supply & getting shorter). Infantry casualties were of grave concern at the time. Ironically, Goodwood didn't even achieve that aim, as infantry casualties still outnumbered tank crew casualties, as it was timed to include the final clearing of Caen by the Canadians.
As regards the Germans suffering equal casualties when attacking, as referred to elsewhere in the thread, this was nothing to do with training on either side, it was simply down to the difficulty of attacking in the bocage country, where the defender was at an automatic advantage, more so than elsewhere. 9th SS & 10th SS suffered the same heavy casualties attacking North on Hill 112, as the Wilts & DCLI did in pushing South to gain the crest. The Americans also discovered this to the West of the bridgehead. It was not until the break-out that Allied superiority in numbers & equipment could be truly applied.
spooky6
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Posted: Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 03:33 PM UTC
Good point on the Bocage, Steve.
tango20
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2006 - 04:34 AM UTC
hi all
Very impotant point regard Hill 112 Steve although you should mention the 53rd Welsh Div ,they were there..lol lol in fact thats were my dad was wounded first, and i agree the defender 90% of the time has the advantage. Which should have been the case with the Falklands and again "Certain Officers screwed up big time with the Bluff cove/ Sir Galahad fiasco where after on attack by ageing Sky Hawks No C.A.P and 5th Brigade ceased to be a fighting force.
Cheers Chris
PS Great Debate
Mahross
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2006 - 04:50 AM UTC
I do not think that all popular books are bad. Far from it. For example some of the recent Battle Orders books from osprey are superb. I just do not agree with Hastings opinion of the British in WW2. It is an interpretation, which is what history is all about.

As to Goodwood I still think had casualty conservation not been an issue,something I myself mentioned in an earlier post, Dempsey would have given the constituent brigades of the armoured units different tasks. This is based on a reading of his action from North Africa to Normandy. Dempsey had already, along with his corps commanders, had already made mistakes in Perch and Epsom were the infantry brigades were given seperate operations to the armour. Luckily the British did learn and by the time of Bluecoat the Armoured Divisions' were operating in battlegroups and the infantry and armour were co - operating effectively. Thus, the British for the NCO's up to the General's were learning from their experience's in Normandy and at least one historian has noted that this is becasue the British are intolerent of any 'official' doctrine. It is interesting to not that the British Army does not have any official Doctrine, that is doctrine with a big 'D', until 1989 when Bagnell introduces the British Military Doctrine.

Ross