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Hero or Zero?
jazza
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Posted: Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 02:43 AM UTC
Was reading through the "This Day In History" section on the History Channels website and found it somewhat interesting on how Joseph Stalin was remembered. Here are some points raised in the original article. .


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The outbreak of World War II saw Stalin attempt an alliance with Adolf Hitler for purely self-interested reasons, and despite the political fallout of a communist signing an alliance with a fascist, they signed a nonaggression pact that allowed each dictator free reign in their respective spheres of influence. Stalin then proceeded to annex parts of Poland, Romania, and Finland, and occupy Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.



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One month later, Germany invaded the USSR, making significant early inroads. As German troops approached, Stalin remained in the capital, directing a scorched-earth defensive policy and exercising personal control over the strategies of the Red Army.



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He is remembered to this day as the man who helped save his nation from Nazi domination-and as the mass murderer of the century, having overseen the deaths of between 8 million and 10 million of his own people.



He started off having the same motives as Hitler and allied with him for his own selfish reason but when betrayed by Hitler at the highest level, he saved Russia by resisting the Germans thereby being remembered as a saviour. Following that, he seeked to control the countries that he occupied after WWII even though he promised he would "set them free".

Im not sure i would call him a Hero but he certainly isnt a Zero either considering how he handled betrayal and saved his country. He seems to be the kind of guy that would be an important ally but you would keep your distance for self preservation.

What do you guys think? How do you remember Joseph Stalin? As a tyrant or a hero or just dont give a damn...?

Anti44Hero
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Posted: Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 03:22 AM UTC
No doubt about it, Stalin was a tyrant and millions died because of his purges. But he also built the Soviet Union from the ground up. Its been said that when stalin came to power the Soviet Union was industrially 100 years behind other countries and he made it into a world super power.
Halfyank
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Posted: Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:35 AM UTC
Absolutely no doubt about Stalin being one of the worst mass muderers in history. Nobody can possibly get past that fact. If he hadn't been so instremental in defeating Hitler he would have been totally villified by history.

I don't think it fair to say "The outbreak of World War II saw Stalin attempt an alliance with Adolf Hitler for purely self-interested reasons." At least it shouldn't be an insult. Does any major world leader do ANYTHING for anything other than self-interested reasons?

Snowhand
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Posted: Monday, March 06, 2006 - 01:24 AM UTC
From the moment he became a member of the communist party, Stalin has been scheming and conspiring to become the party leader.

He used propaganda to his advantage, even going as far as falsifying photos.

He started his purges long before WW2, eliminating about 75% of the officers of his army.

He saved Russia ? you'd be a big loser if you didn't. Russia at that moment in time was a deathtrap, and probably no army, and definately not Germany at that time, could conquer it. It's just too large
spooky6
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

alcoholic


Actually many accounts state that Stalin rarely drank.


Quoted Text

From the moment he became a member of the communist party, Stalin has been scheming and conspiring to become the party leader.

He used propaganda to his advantage, even going as far as falsifying photos.


Sounds like a perfect fit for most modern politicians! :-)

But seriously, what makes him stand out was his brutality. He certainly was directly responsible for far more deaths than even Hitler. On the other hand, at least he had the ability to hold the USSR together, make it a superpower, and ensure the majority of the population had decent lives. The last point is a relative one, but he did a lot better than other tyrants such as Pol Pot.
Drader
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 01:45 PM UTC
Who writes this stuff for the History Channel?

Stalin's alliance with Hitler was a stroke of genius on his part, involving Hitler in a costly and destructive war with the Western Allies at no cost to himself. There wasn't that much in the way of political fallout as fellow travellers in the West swallowed whatever Stalin presented to them. The deaths of millions of Russians, Ukranians and others meant nothing to most of them, as long a better socialist future was being built.
Halfyank
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Who writes this stuff for the History Channel?

Stalin's alliance with Hitler was a stroke of genius on his part, involving Hitler in a costly and destructive war with the Western Allies at no cost to himself.



I think this brings up a pretty good point about the opening phases of WWII. There was a lot more diplomacy going on, as far as treaties, in Germany than I think many people realize. Nazi Germany is often portrayed as scaring other nations into not attacking them. There is some truth in this, but it doesn't give Germany enough credit for their diplomacy. The non agression treaty with the Soviet Union effectively protected Germany from the east, allowing them to take Poland when they wanted. Then they came up with the Tripartie Pact that basically stopped the United States from attacking Japan because that would bring in Germany, or from declaring war against Germany because Japan would be brought in.


Back on topic.

This program seems to castigate Stalin for the non agression treaty. I also think it was a stroke of genius on Stalin, and Hitlers, part. It gave Stalin breathing room to get his army in some semblance of order before the war with Germany that everybody must have seen would happen sooner or later.




bgazso
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:45 PM UTC
You mean the guy who said,"Kill one person and it's a tragedy; kill a million and it's a statistic"?

When describing how he was going to obliterate the Catholic Church in the Soviet Union, one of his entourage said the Pope would never stand for it. Stalin's reply: "How many divisions does the Pope have?"

Stalin refused to believe Hitler would invade despite rock solid intelligence - heck, he executed one spy who kept trying to get him to take action - and retreated to his dacha when the invasion began. He sat in a catatonic state for days while his generals (the ones he hadn't had shot) pleaded with him to do something. Afterward, of course, he was the "savior" of the Soviet people, and heaven help you if you pointed out certain embarrassing facts.

Penal Battalions, genocide against indigenous peoples, sending returning captured Red Army soldiers to the Gulag for being "tainted" by the West, paranoia gone riot, blah blah...

A real sweetheart alright. The man was a thug.

With heroes like that, we don't need monsters.
Hawkeye
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:36 AM UTC
I have to agree with Barry on this one, i do not see Stalin as having any redeeming features, nor do i consider him to be a "great" amongst world leaders, then or now.

I have always thought that because Stalin never had an "official" policy of mass murder, nor put a name to it, that is part of the reason he was never brought up on crimes against humanity, such as the Nazis were. From what i have read about the gulag system, it was just as bad as many of the Nazi concentration camps, just without the crementory. One of the greatest regrets of mankind is that people such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler etc etc, are not stopped before they do the damage they do..........in the case of all the tyrants mentioned, the world had warning of the direction these people were pursuing, yet we did nothing.

Anyone reckon we will learn from history one day?

Regards from the Swamp

Hawkeye
spooky6
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 10:10 AM UTC

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II have always thought that because Stalin never had an "official" policy of mass murder, nor put a name to it, that is part of the reason he was never brought up on crimes against humanity, such as the Nazis were.


Well, the only reason the Nazis were tried was because they were defeated. Stalin never lost his grip on power in his lifetime, so who was going to charge him? If Germany won WW2, do you think successive Nazi leaders would have tried Hitler, Eichmann and the rest?

What is amazing, however, is that tyrants such as Pol Pot and Idi Amin escaped punishment, being allowed to live out their days by the international community.


Quoted Text

One of the greatest regrets of mankind is that people such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler etc etc, are not stopped before they do the damage they do..........in the case of all the tyrants mentioned, the world had warning of the direction these people were pursuing, yet we did nothing.

Anyone reckon we will learn from history one day


Plainly not, as Rwanda has shown us.
spooky6
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 01:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

disagree with the last part.


Hermon, I meant that in relation to other countries that have suffered, or are suffering, under tyranny, like Cambodia, Uganda, N Korea, etc. I wasn't comparing the lives of Soviet citizens to those in the west.

As for unity and stability, it helped Russia avoid war in the post-war years too.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Friday, March 10, 2006 - 05:22 PM UTC
I seem to remember reading somewhere that many Russians yearn for the good old days under Communism, before they had the Mafia running everything, & when hopelessly uneconomic factories continued to provide work for all. Not everything in the Socialist paradise was awful.
However I've never heard anyone express any sentimentality for "good old Uncle Joe". As homicidal maniacs go, Joe Stalin may have been the all-time great. He made Hitler look like an amateur where "wet" business, as it was euphemistically called, was concerned. No one knows how many russians perished under Stalin, estimates range from 20 - 30 MILLION. This makes Hitler & the Jews look like small beer. Also, no matter how deranged Hitler appeared, he was, in his eyes, targetting a group for a reason. Stalin would kill anybody who in his paranoia could in any way be regarded as a threat - Russian intellectuals, officials, other party bosses, army officers, Polish intelligensia, Catholic priests, you name it.
Whether it could be considered worth all the suffering to drag Russia into the 20th Century, is debateable. Was it really necessary? Was it vital for 3 million people to starve to death in the Ukraine so that Stalin could enforce collectivism on the Kulaks for example? Only a died-in-the-wool member of the old communist chattering clases in say, the UK could answer that in the affirmative surely? The class that spawned Burgess & McLean, Blunt & co.
hellbent11
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Posted: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:59 PM UTC
I think that the only thing that keeps most people from seeing Stalin on the same level of Hitler is that Stalin was not so racially motivated. In our culture one of the worst things you can be is "racist". Since Stalin acted in a more politically motivated manner modern society views him through rose colored glasses. There is no doubt that Stalin did great things but they indeed were mostly terrible. I think that we view him as the lesser of two evils and so he is not catagorized the way Hitler and the Nazi's are.
DutchBird
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Posted: Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 02:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Stalin refused to believe Hitler would invade despite rock solid intelligence - heck, he executed one spy who kept trying to get him to take action - and retreated to his dacha when the invasion began. He sat in a catatonic state for days while his generals (the ones he hadn't had shot) pleaded with him to do something. Afterward, of course, he was the "savior" of the Soviet people, and heaven help you if you pointed out certain embarrassing facts.


Yet, in his ruthlessness, when he got out of his lethargy Stalin adapted pretty well to the circumstances.

1) He played the nationalist card (though under a communist cover). So he appealed to peoples nationalism (something that went against traditional communism, or his pre-war views).

2) IIRC he ordered the evacuation of Soviet industries, on of the often overlooked and most important events in WW II, IMHO. Above all it enabled the Russians to quickly reestablish production (IIRC outproducing Germany by the middle of 1942) despite effectively losing the vast majority of their pre-war industrial areas. Another big advantage is that it denied the Germans use of the same factories (unlike in Chechoslovakia (Skoda!!!!!), France, Poland) which certainly could have shifted the balance significantly to the German advantage. Imagine what could have happened if the Germans had captured the tractor factories and ironworks in the Ukraine pretty much intact!!!

3) Stalin learned form his mistakes (probably under the pressure of survival) eventually handing most of the running of the war over to his officers (after the early 1942 Khrakov debacle).

Does this make Stalin a hero? Certainly considering his dark side it does not. However I think that Stalin as a politician was as instrumental in winning the war as Roosevelt and Churchill were.
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