I have noted alot of models make show circuits.I will see the same model go from show to show,big and small. I feel that this kind of takes some of the thrill away from a show.I can understand showing it at a local show then regionals and so on but, for it to just be reshown over and over again so as to garner as many awards as possible is wearisome. Alot of the work out there is exceptional but,room should be made for the fresh creations. I love our hobby and don't want to see it become bland because people are seeing the same thing everywhere it they go.I enjoy producing something different for every show I go to.Don't get me wrong,I understand that we can't crank out a model every week but,I like to see different subjects and styles.Sorry if I'm ranting....I don't mean too.I also am not pointing any fingers or trying to step on toes,just wanted to get some feedback.

I suppose there are two equal sides to this arguement. In one way what you said is right. I agree.
On the other it gives everybody all over, a chance to see these models, that cant get to many shows. Also when months of work, energy and expense go into one of these projects, maybe the modeller feels that they would like some competitive appreciation for their work.
Another point is that a modeller may have spent the whole year working on their latest offering, as no other work available, is going to as many shows as possible for the love of the hobby/meeting fellow modellers/ gaining experience and takes their one model with them to be part of the show. I guess its easier to talk to somebody about their work when you have your own to get return comments etc.
I suppose when it is in the one "season" it should be fair play but entering the same a few years running in the hope of winning something would be a bit off-putting

I would have to agree with you. I went to a local show last weekend and saw four models made by the same person in the past 3 consecutive shows.Yes, I would agree in some instance, that if a catagory is light with entries then yes throw something in the catagory to add more interest to it. But to just put something in a contest that you have been showing for the past 1 to 3 years, I don't agree.

I am a very wishy washy person, just call me Charlie Brown, but I do see both sides. I saw an incredible dio called "Godverdomme" (sorry can't remember the name of the modeller) in which a panther has had it's turret blown off in it's hiding place, which happens to be the chapel of a decimated church. A couple figures of a bishop and his wife, carrying their few possetions look on. The detail to the church and tank were mind blowing. I really liked seeing it and think a dio of that calibre deserves to be shown as much as possible. But if, for instance, that dio was shown in several consecutive shows, that would really detract from the event. I guess I don't mind so much that it is seen in several shows, but discression really is the better part of valor.

Maybe a one year rule would do the trick. Once a modeller starts showing a particular piece, he should limit the shows he puts it in to right under a year, that way it can be seen as much as possible, but doesn't become obtrusive. I am very much a person who believes in modelling for the fun of it. I do not show models for awards. My only competition is with myself, to continually improve my abilities, so I think that is why I am in favor of showing models more. People who are in it for the awards, though will feel differently, because they don't want to have to face a really spectacular piece again and again. It just isn't fair to them.

my cent and a half

Rob

It seems that you guys that have posted have the same attitude as I.I like the IMPS rule that states,I believe,that if a model takes a gold at a local,it cannot be evaluated for another, except at a regional show.This does not mean it can't be at a show but I think past winners should be shown,but seperately from the competition.The competion tables should help to bring creativity and insperation to the hopefuls.The 1 year rule is also a great idea.Win or lose,time to get back to the workbench and start anew.As for the dio described above,I know exactly the one you speak of.It is worthy of many viewings,but not to discourage others from competing.I love that diorama and enjoy seeing it over and over again.Should that crush the creativity of the people who desire to compete but,knowing that this masterpiece is out there and making its rounds,feel there is no hope?Maybe a platinum medal for show winners,and category for these models should be considered.Just $.02

That dio is by Marijn Van Gils. he is a moderator for the diorama section on missing links. There are a few dutch guys of whom he is one, who model together and have a shared homepage. Maybe somebody has this page address? Some of his work is shown on missing links in the gallery. A really gifted guy and also very helpful in the ML site.

Have to disagree vehemently here. If the builder were to do this, he'd get run over the coals for scoping the competition before entering.

I believe that is a local rule, not an IPMS national rule. In the area contests, there is only one that requires prior first place winners anywhere to go into a Masters category. They are at the end of the fall season of shows. So after having had a good run this fall. I was quite limited in what I could bring to the contest. They lost entry money and the attendees who went only to that show didn't get to see a couple neat models from me. I see that as a no win all around.


Most clubs have a standing rule that prior winners at their contests are ineligeble. That seems to work quite well.
I view competition as a learning experience as well as a celebration of the hobby. If someone puts a well done item on the table, that should challenge others to do better. Yes, those of us who do the rounds of a region's contests are going to see some of the same stuff several times. But many people only go to one show a year, regardless of their skill, and some folks go just to look. I believe they should get to see as any good and great models as possible. As to the masters' class, that become problematic in itself in that a figure is up agianst a plane is up against a car, etc. Further, if you have more than one kit that fits the criterion, you'd wind up competing against yourself.

Yep - in absolute agreement here! That modeler is derisively labeled a "sandbagger", and contest etiquette frowns on the practice of scoping out a model room, then leaving to empty out the trunk of your car to enter models. Modelers generally enter their models into the contest before entering the contest display room on smaller levels. Sometimes a model is damaged in transit to a contest, but most modelers make this known or even enter it and place the entry tag on its spot on the table while effecting repairs to avoid a "sandbagger" label. Some will even repair it in the contest room if facilities permit, and I've helped out when able on several occassions.

I know of individuals, who for some reason, still take the "sandbagging" approach - all the while tagging someone else who they think does it. Amazing what some modelers do at shows...

Gunnie

I agree with everyones comments on sandbagging.It is ,without a doubt ,wrong.As for the comment of people who don't go to all the area shows,will they be any less disappointed if a new model were submitted for competition and the medal winners placed into a diferent catagory? If shows are truely a celebration of the hobby,and not a ego boosting,then having 3 medals is just as fine as 15 medals.Also,if it is a ego validation,with the masterclass, wouldn't the winning or placing in such a class be an award along the lines of "Best of Show".I do realize that this cuts both ways.If it truely is a celebration of our hobby,why should it matter.I am not stating that a person should be in a mastersclass because of the medals he/she has garnered but,the model should be evaluated on its circuit rounds and previous medals.This of course would be mute at local shows,but regionals and nationals should review the idea.I just feel it is rather daunting for someone to enter an AMPS Regional show when competing against a model that has placed gold 7 times and toppled the competions everywhere they have gone.I,truely,don't care if I place or not.I would rather see the competion also geared toward getting new people enter the hobby,not scare them with"I could never compete with that "syndrome(3 friends said the very same thing to me when I took them to shows). By-the-way,I am not trying to upset anyone,just expressing myself and seeing if and where I am wrong so as to adjust my attitude.

First: I am in the same club as Marijn van Gils and the website address is http://www.kmk-scaleworld.be/, you can find a few dio's of him in the gallery.

I understand what you all mean and "sandbagging" is low, but be frank whenever you enter a contest you enter with the intend to win (not that I have much experience as a novice builder ) But even I entered my first dio and sure I did not win, I learned a lot and even got a lot of good remarks.
Competitions are always ego boosters, local or national all alike.
But .... I always noticed that most of us are there to show what we did the last couple of months to each others and maybe get some feedback and to show non-builders what kind of weirdo’s we are and hearing kids go OOOO, AAAA, GREAAAAAAT, or even the local veteran telling a story about the war.

That is why I love those shows and are continuing to go.

Ok, but what about those modelers who enters to go home with every award available??
Let me give you a few names: Marijn van Gils, Mario Eens, Steve Zaloga , Mig Jimenez.

I think every one agrees that those are some excellent modelers, right? Do you really think they only got one award on each model they made?? Don't think so?? Are they circuit builders?? some are others not, the fact remains that these guy's set a standard we accept because we are willing to learn from them.
Show organizers also want them, because they look good on the billboard.

the one year idea is not a bad idea (only hard to implement), but the serious models do this anyway.

For example that dio "Godverdomme", Marijn entered it in several, local, national and international events, and left with prices, did he not earned it?? I think he did because he made something we ALL love to look at. Now, he still takes that dio to events but does not enter it in to competitions anymore but just show it
Some say ok, but modelers like him give us a feeling of "I will never be that good", that too is understandable but unjust, I mean, did you know that he models for about 4 years now??? So there is hope for me yet #:-) .
I know that I won't be that good, and to be honest I don't care anymore, as long as I love what I did then I am at that level.

Gee, sorry for the rambling

#:-)

Oooh, Master Class - interesting turn of discussion...

The only place where I've seen a "Master" ranking and sectioning modelers who've been "elevated" to that status separate from other modelers apparently work is AMPS. It gets tossed around IPMS circles frequently, and local chapters experiment with it from time to time, but it never seems to gather any steam for the long term. How to administrate it is a problem.

By what criteria does a group decide that a modeler has 'risen' to a level where they should be sectioned away from other modelers and tagged "Master"? Who judges a modeler's work on this level so created - or do they get judged at all? Automatic? Have they been elevated so highly that they are now respected and should no longer taste desire to compete again? Should other modelers genuflect when they walk past???

I'm getting facetious here, but AMPS created and implemented a system that works for them after careful thought and consideration. At present, IPMS doesn't espouse such a system because it doesn't fit well with their philosophy.

Personally, I fall between the two. I like the British IPMS practice / system a little better. I think placing a model at a local or regional level contest is a thing that should be recognized by allowing that entry to enter a national level event. I also think that modelers who've won consistently at national level events should be grouped together. And I think that if a Master Class is to be created then the pool of modelers that fill it should come from that rank.

Flip side of this for me is what happens to a modeler so dubbed "Master". I like to go to shows, and enter models. Sometimes I'll only bring one - other times I'll bring five, seven, or eight models. It all depends on how I feel. I've been told on a couple of occasions that I should not be 'allowed' to compete because I participate in a 'professional' side of the hobby. I certainly don't think that's fair - and I didn't find it flattering either. If contests were administered by robots with flat, objective, consistent rules and parameters for evaluating models - then I could buy the argument. I think all hobbyists like to get together, regardless of skill level and experience, and that desire doesn't lessen as modeling success increases. I feel that a "Master Class" certainly isn't ego-boosting - it's segregation in a subtle form. Just because I've reached a certain level of modeling ability does not translate into a lesser desire to participate in shows and be accepted by fellow modelers.

A model can't be a "Master" because it's been awarded at multiple events. A modeler isn't a "Master" just because one model they built has won awards at multiple events either. I think the highest recognition a modeler would hope for is an elevation by his or her peers to a "Master" because of the scope and depth of their displayed works over time. AMPS is far better suited for this condition to happen than IPMS shows because of the nature in which they're conducted.

I started out like everyone else, and I initially felt quite intimidated by who I perceived "Masters" of the armor modeling circuit. I was all for segreating juniors from seniors, from intermediates, from "masters" when I began to test the contest waters. Sometimes I wanted to enter, feeling pretty good about my chances to win, place, or show. Other times I didn't want to because I caught wind of the latest "Uberproject" the local master had just crafted.

Thank God I didn't get all the changes that I thought I wanted.

The intimidation was a challenge to learn. Sometimes, the smarter you are - the softer you're behind is. You'll take more butt-whippins to learn until you get tired of it and open up your patterns of thinking and become receptive to all the ideas around you. I took some butt-whippins

I gauged myself against what I saw, and invested the time and energy to learn. To place was my goal at first, then it became a goal to win my category. Setting steps and milestones to reach the goals you set for yourself is critical in any endeavor. Put the milestones behind you and perspectives begin to change. Now, I couldn't care less what categories there are on a table - they could eliminate them all. I'd still put my work down for it to be judged - no segregation - winner take all. About 10 years ago, a guy who I gauged myself and progress against, a "Master" of AFV modeling to be sure, said the very same to me. I gasped in horror and disbelief at that time . Funny, the things you remember. I still don't consider myself his equal, but an inspiration.

I think things are okay overall the way they are. Further segregation of modelers into assumed skill levels and classes promotes mediocre modeling - in my eyes. Sure, you can win a lot of awards potentially, but is that what it's all about??? Sure, you gain some time to model and find success without getting "thumped" by the big dogs in the area - but is that what it's all about???

The way I found to settle all the mixed feelings and apprehensions I had about contests and modeling was to determine what I was trying to get out of it. Once I layed that down clear and honestly on a piece of paper in front of me - it all became clear. The path you select to acheive that then becomes your responsibility, not dependent on what any modeling group or organization comes up with.

Sorry for the longish post - a recent record for me. The thread became relevant to feelings I had recently...

Gunnie

If you folks dont mind me putting in my 2 cents heere. I noted that the article is entitled
Circuit or satisfaction Builder. I dont really know anything about Contests and have never attempted to enter any of my work in a contest. I KNOW that I would never stand a chance.
Too many others out there that build WAY better than I could ever hope to. BUT that does not stop me from taking my time and putting as much care into each project as I can. I know
that I have aways to go. And I hope that I am getting JUST A LITTLE BETTER. With each new completed project. I would LOVE to be able to show My TEAM BRAVO sometime next year. AS it is still in the building process. ANYWAY I guess I have made it pretty clear by now that I am a satisfaction Builder with No dreams of Glory and Awards. BUT in the same token I give all my praise to those of you who can build that greatly. You give the rest of us something to strive for and you keep the hobby alive to those who are not familiar with it.

Humbly DAGGER-1

My friend Dagger, you ohave no way of knowing how you would do. On any given day, you could be the best builder who chose to enter. In my road running days, I once finished 6th overall. That only 24 people showed up doesn't matter. My wife took several trophies/awards over the years for being among the first in her age group. Take the glory where you can. A plaque or ribbon can be a tremendous bit of positive reinforcement. That being said, rememer to build for your enjoyement. I couldn't imagine having less fun with this hobby than choosing to build subjects in which I had no interest to be able to get a trophy for a class that goes poorly attended.

Thanks everyone for your posts!!! Not only did I get to hear boyh sides of the coin but got to talk about ideas that have been bouncing around for awhile. I,like many of you,build for the enjoyment. I get more enjoyment from a build then a competive spirit ,any day.My favorite model is always the one I'm building.I hope that my opening this post didn't cause any bad feelings or bruised egos. I do enjoy all of the "Masters" works(even if they don't have the title, I will call a part a part) and like to see them as often as possible.Just wanted to hear your thoughts.Thanks

No Sweat Jackhammer:
Though I did not all the replies, It was an intersting post. And I liked the response as well . I agree with Al, He could be right, I MIGHT stand a chance BUT I just enjoy building and showing my kits on the net. I may not ever win an award. But at least the feedback that I get here or at other places will help me to continue to build that much better the next time around. I think the information that I learn and the feedback that others give is always what helps keep me building PLUS.... I LOVE Y HOBBY !!

DAGGER-1