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Modeling in General: Advice on...
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Advice on model competitions
rfeehan
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 05:45 AM UTC
Ok, this may be a weird post but I haven't actually entered into or gone to any type of model competition or show since I was 15. I have decided to enter into a local AMPS show here in KC tomorrow and I was wondering if anyone had some advice on what to expect. Also any tips for transporting my armor entries would be appreciated as well. I am probably stressing over nothing (my wife tells me I do that... lol) but I usually feel more comfortable know what to expect from things that are new to me.

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom.

Rob
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 05:53 AM UTC
You can expect the judges to be there with dental mirrors and mini fiber optic flashlights looking for the most minute inaccuracy to flame your model on. The ones that will win will be the wrong version, and unrealistically weathered as well, but it will have all sorts of artistic BS to it. Also most of the judges will never have seen nor been near an actual AFV in their lives, but they are the experts.

Sorry, I don't really like the AMPS or IMPS judging styles. Their catagories are screwed up as well.

Go with the expectation that you will not win anything, and if you do, even better. I usually place my models in shoe-box sized Rubbermaid storage tubs, with some styrofaom blocks for bracing to keep them from banging around.

Good luck and have fun.
Sabot
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:06 AM UTC
I say go with the thought that you do build good enough to compete and the expectation that you may not win anything.

Go with an open mind, and try to learn by looking at models and talking to others about their models.

You've seen my stuff first hand. I'm not a great modeler by any stretch but I've always walked away with something.
Red4
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:07 AM UTC
Rob, Having been thru the wringer a few times at IPMS and AMPS events, here is what I would suggest, volunteer to be on a judging team. This will do a couple of things
1. It will teach you what the "experts" are looking for when they judge.
2. It will also show you where other modelers make mistakes. Seams, alignment, silvered decals etc. (The basics if you will)

If you happen to be on the team that is judging your category, quietly excuse yourself just before they get to your model, then return once they have moved on to the next. I did this to avoid getting my feelings hurt and it lets the other guys/gals be honest in the judging without the "builder" being right in their face. Sometimes words hurt.....go figure.

If at the end of the contest you didn't do well, don't hesitate to ask those who judged the category what they felt was wrong. Gino is right about the "experts" comment. I try to take these guys witha grain of salt. I have seen it all too often, but there are a lot of folks out there who actually DO know what they are talking about. I try to pick these individuals brains and gather more info myslef.

Above all else, just enjoy the contest and check out the other models on the tables. Spend a little $$ at the vendors. Its a good way to meet others with like interests and make new friends. Hope this helps you. "Q"

ps. After looking at the pics in your gallery, I'd say you have just as good a shot as anybody else there. Nice work from what I can see in the pics.
INDIA11A
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:12 AM UTC
Had the same experience about amonth ago. Had not been in a comp for ages. Suffered from major stress preping for it. Checking stuff, questioning myself on this and that. BAH Should have just did minor touchups (antennas). Just do the best you can and not worry about the comp. Checkout the other models and socialize. If you win something good and if not maybe next time but enjoy yourself.
As far as packings kits the styrofoam works weel as well as using pieces of bubble wrap. Make sure the models do not have room to move. I took a repair kit (read half the work bench) and all that needed fixing after a 6 hour drive was 1 antenna.
Do not worry about competing, instead its about showing your work off and socializing with other models.
rfeehan
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:20 AM UTC
Thanks guys and I really am not concerned about winning I just don't want to look totally foolish

Robins stuff is quite good so don't let his post fool you plus he is an all around great guy to talk with (I miss being able to chat with you and the other Mass guys on a regular basis it seemed like I just found you guys and then I had to move and of course now your moved away also).

My big problem with my model building or for that matter anything else I do with my own hands is I see every single flaw in everything. One of my entries is an STank I did and while I was very pleased with the paint job on it (some early pics in my gallery of it before I made some changes based on comments here) when I took it to work to show a guy I work with who is Swedish I saw about 3 things that made me say.. "ewww I can't show other people this kit...".

Will let you know how my day goes tomorrow.
Sandy
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:25 AM UTC
Hi , My Honest opinion is that on the day all entries are winners for the simple reason it is their best effort on that day . Having said that Some are better than others and it shows. If you are honest with yourself ask why am I entering ?
It is far better to place your model on a club stand and hear the comments of other modellers as they pass by . If placed in the comps then you cannot hear anything siad about your model good or bad . You only see the results later .
I have judges at UK Level in the past and based on 20 years of experiance I now no longer enter or judge but put my models up for all to see on a display stand at shows. You soon find out who are the true modellers and hearing the comments makes your day and helps to interact with the public. My ten cents worth . Just enjoy it as a hobby . cheers ian
sgtsauer
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:37 AM UTC
Hi rfeehan,

Everyone has their likes and dislikes about AMPS. Try not to let it discourage you too much. I have been a member of the KC AMPS group for a couple of years now. On a personal level, the guys are good bunch who can be/are very helpful. Judging in AMPS does tend to be pretty tough but it depends on what catagory you are in and who you get judging your models. I've entered in two of the shows and feel the judging I received was fair with accurate criticisms. The KC AMPS group meets once a month in Overland Park.

I will be at the AMPS show also. I'm 6'2" with high/tight military haircut. I will be wearing my Armorama t-shirt. Feel free to say hello if see me. There will be some good vendors at the show also. It is across the highway from the Truman Sports complex.

Feel free to contact me if you want.
blaster76
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:56 AM UTC
The advice on being a judge is a good one. I competed several times only winning 3rd place once (out of 4 entries). Couldn't figure why my bent and beat-up REALISTIC looking tanks were not beating the ones that looked like they were on a showroom floor. First thing they look at is track. Is it lined up square and true, is it flat, does it sag realistically. Then things like silvered decals, glue spots, seam marks. These are called the modeling basics and eliminate about 80 % of the competitors. At that point, things become subjective. This is the thing that probably ticks a lot of competitors off. I know here (DFW area) that there is a hardcore goup that is the same judges over and over again. They prefer things and styles in what they look for. This is probably the area that ticks Gino off so much. (and why I don't compete ). It is why the same guy who enters 2 or three models seems to win the top couple ofawards every time. Here, the less you weather it and bend and break everything up the more likely you are to takea prize home. Now I bring stuff in and put it on display. Then I get critqued by folks when they look at it. Thus I improve my skills, and I can also admire others work and still have an absolutely wonderful time.
rfeehan
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 06:57 AM UTC
Brent I have attended one KC AMPS meeting since I moved here but due to work I haven't been back since February however Scott has me on his mailing lists ie hasn't removed me for being tardy yet lol. I guess I didn't run into you at that meeting and to be honest most of the names haven't stuck with me it takes me a while to attach faces to names (I will never be a politician). I am sure I won't remember one of them tomorrow lol.

Look for the slightly lost middle aged guy.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 07:07 AM UTC
Whew! Someone had their knickers in a knot over judging!
While it's true most judges have never been near the prototype (many of the World War II and earlier subjects don't even exist in real life anymore) they're judging, what they are looking at is your work as it compares to other models in the same class (IMPS 1-2-3 style) or to preset modeling standards (AMPS gold-silver-bronze style). Make a point of visiting each site, AMPS and IPMS-USA to get an idea of what the judges are tasked with looking for.
Dental mirrors and lights? Well, if the builder or event allowed items to be picked up, mirrors would be unneeded and if every venue had the same great lighting as our work benches, no additional lighting would be needed.
At AMPS, if you enter the beginner class, you may only be eligible for a bronze medal, but the expectations are less than in the higher classes where you could qualilfy for gold or silver as well as bronze. The AMPS event out here, AMPS East, provides feedback on the judging sheets which are available at the end of the show.
As Matthew says, offer to help with judging, It's one of the best ways to learn the craft and what the judges, and none of us who judge consider ourselves experts, look for in a well constructed model.
As several have said, go, have fun, meet new people, pick brains how others achieved what you are trying to do, spend some money at the vendors.
Absolute worst case scenario would be to come home without a medal but with a lot more direct knowledge than you had going in.
By all means, have fun and let us know ow it goes.
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 08:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Look for the slightly lost middle aged guy.



Gee, Rob. That pretty much describes the entire membership of KC AMPS! :-)

But back to the "serious" stuff. I'll be heading up a judging team for at least part of the day. When you register, tell the guys at the desk you are looking for me. I'll be wearing my ever-present Packer hat and probably an Aberdeen Proving Ground t-shirt with Tiger tanks on it.

We'll take away all the mysteries of judging. You'll be welcome to join us to see exactly what we look at.

Here are a few biggies:

Alignment -- are the tracks straight and parallel to each other? Is the gun barrel square and straight? Do all the wheels make contact with the ground?

Seams -- They should be filled and sanded. Ditto for casting lines and knock-out pin marks.

Paint & decals -- Silvered decals are a no-go. We don't stress too much about color of paint, just that it covers and is consistent.

Details -- Let us know if you added aftermarket parts and/or made modifications to the kit. If you did it well, it can get you extra points.

Reference -- If your model is of something unusual or has wacky paint or markings, it helps to include a reference photo or two.

For your first show, enter in the Beginner or Intermediate category. Advanced category is for the masochists.

I'll see you and Brent tomorrow at the show! Good luck!



P.S. We don't use no stinking dental mirrors or pen lights!
18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 08:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You can expect the judges to be there with dental mirrors and mini fiber optic flashlights looking for the most minute inaccuracy to flame your model on. The ones that will win will be the wrong version, and unrealistically weathered as well, but it will have all sorts of artistic BS to it. Also most of the judges will never have seen nor been near an actual AFV in their lives, but they are the experts.

Good luck and have fun.



I have to concur. While I actuilly did quite well at AMPS East a decade ago, the only time I entered anything there, I have pretty much stopped entering anything of mine. I've been told that guide teeth on a Paladin would NEVER be bright silver (they should be a more realistic dark steel said the judge) when in fact I have photos of bright silver guide teeth . By the way, I chiefed M109's once. I've also been told that the shade of gray I chose for my .50 cal was too light and unrealisitic. I guess he'd never heard of Parkerization. And if you know what 18 Bravo REALLY means, not the silly reason I posted, well, it was kinda funny.

As for the artisitc weathering, I agree as well. I judged once in Fort Worth moons ago, and could not believe the T-34 that won, with the panel shading done as it was-spraying around the center of each panel with a lightened shade of the base color-you could see exactly where the modeler had gone with the airbrush. I admit it was one of the most beautiful effects I've seen on a model, but not realistic in the least.
I usually find desert vehicles overdone as well. I know how harsh the climate is as I've been there, and train in those environments all the time. But the sun has a nasty way of of bleaching everything out, making the highly unsought "monochromatic" look a reality in real life. The overdone preshading effect doesn't exist, as the light reflects off of the light colored paint into the less lit areas. The harsh contrast rarely exists in that light. Take a look at the vehicles at Ft. Hood in the summer. Even after a good romp through the dust they're quite boring colorwise.
Finally, as I've stated before, the sun NEVER shines directly into a hatch. NEVER, unless your particular piece saw duty on the equator at high noon. An open hatch is not a invitation to stick a SureFire into the opening. It simply means I like the look of my tank with the hatch open.
Don't even get me started on picking up my model to see what's underneath. Rembrandt didn't paint the obverse side of his canvas in case anyone turned the painting around. If I wanted anyone to see underneath, I'd model it flipped over from a daisy cutter blast.
I've won enough plaques in the few years I entered models. They mean little, but make good bases for models. If I run out, expect to see me back on the circuit, but not necessarily winning, especially after this rant.

I don't want to spoil your fun though. Contests are a great way to meet people and exchange ideas. Go, have fun, spend money, and eat lots of good local food.
Then go home, work it off, and ask the Minister of Finance for more allowance money.
Angry_Ensign
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 08:46 AM UTC
I've speed-read most ofthe posts in this thread, and there's not much else I can add (but Al's right, there's some disgruntled modelers out there) except the following, which most seem to have missed:

Go to the meet, look at models, buy models, talk to other guys about models (the two-legged swimsuit type are fine too), then, if you're lucky, pick up an award, and go home. Use the time you spent there to apply what you've learned, or use it to motivate you through the next project. The only thing to avoid doing is talking to the models...because then no one usually talks to you...

Seriously though, it doesn't have to be about the competition. I went to the AMPS national at APG this year, and to the IPMS Nats, and didn't enter anything...and I had just as good a time as I've had in the past.

Jeff
Red4
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text


And if you know what 18 Bravo REALLY means....


I know what it means as I've worked with you guys enough over the last 22 years. When you see Elrod again, Tell him "Q" say hi.
Funny how everyone knows exactly what shade a particular item should be. I had a .50 cal barrel fresh out of the cosmoline turn od green after it was fired a few minutes. Wierdest thing I ever saw. I wish i had my camera with me to get a pic of it. No judge would believe it thats for sure. "Q"
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Don't even get me started on picking up my model to see what's underneath. Rembrandt didn't paint the obverse side of his canvas in case anyone turned the painting around. If I wanted anyone to see underneath, I'd model it flipped over from a daisy cutter blast.



Unfortunately, at most contests, the judges are required to pick the three best models for awards. If two are equal on top, where is the judge supposed to go next? Obviously the bottom. That said, I can't remember the last time I had to do that to a military vehicle. The cut can be pretty much be made without looking underneath. That is not the same with aircraft. That pesky seam goes along the bottom as well as the top.

As to hatches, you will be gigged if a hatch is open and there's nothing inside. If you want to build that way for the shelf, no problem, but put it in competition and you will loose points. That's just the way it is. Same as not painting the cockpit of an F-16 or the wheel wells of a car.
rfeehan
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 11:55 AM UTC
Good info all thanks Guess that Cromwell which has all the hatches open waiting for a crew stays home tomorrow :-)
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:04 PM UTC
Rob, take it from an old man.....
1. Go and have fun
2. Meet new people with like interest
3. Enjoy the day
4. The awards make good bases.

Have fun, and good luck.
Moezilla
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:15 PM UTC
So you can bring models to the shows just to show them and not compete? That might be something worth doing, just to get feedback from people who know what they're talking about. I build mainly OOB with no additions at this point really, be a good way to get some pointers without putting anything in competition.
jRatz
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:29 PM UTC
Ignore the attitude posts above -- don't let their issues become yours & ruin a good day.

AMPS judges models against their standard, not other models. They fill out a little form to tell you why your model scored what & you may get a few good comments also.

AMPS is pretty relaxed because of the judging. I find more people willing to talk about their models and provide advice.

Pack your model as you see fit; take a small repair kit just in case.
Enter at your skill level.
Fill your paperwork out ahead of time, or at least draft your description of work, so you just have to recopy, not start from scratch.
Take a camera & a notebook for ideas.
2nd mortgage your house for the vendor room.
Don't hover over your model, go see what everyone else is doing -- if conversation leads you back to yours for discussion, fine.
Identify & ignore idiots ...
Take your own mirror and flashlight so you can best see details on other folks work that you can learn from.

AMPS is fun.

John

barv
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:49 PM UTC

Go-for it.....pack well ..take the repair kit (mine goes in a spec case).....give yourself time to put it on display.......then when happy....bale -out and see the rest of the show When you return ....if you have won ...GREAT...IF NOT .....No problemo...you had a go
Remember:--
Modeling is for YOUR.. Enjoyment ....Not for the glorification of Rivet Counters!!
Good luck.......
aye
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18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2005 - 01:52 PM UTC
WARNING: The photos contained in this post may be deemed quite offensive, and inappropriate for some viewers.


Quoted Text


Unfortunately, at most contests, the judges are required to pick the three best models for awards. If two are equal on top, where is the judge supposed to go next? Obviously the bottom. That said, I can't remember the last time I had to do that to a military vehicle. The cut can be pretty much be made without looking underneath.



All I can say is "Thank God."


You can badmouth my wife and kick my dog, but let it never be said I built for competition.
rfeehan
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 07:22 AM UTC
Well show went very well and I enjoyed the experience so I will be attending more I hope. Met some nice people, learned about judging (thanks Bob!), and managed 3 bronze medals out of 4 models I entered. So all in all a great day. Oh and I never win anything but I did win 2 raffle prizes a Stur Emil and a dragon Elefant.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Rob
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 07:33 AM UTC
Congratulations on the awards Rob, and winning some goodies also.
Glad you enjoyed the show.
blaster76
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 07:43 AM UTC
Moe:

Both the Mesquite / Squadron show and the Arlington show have display areas I've utilized that method for showing my models for the past couple of years. I didn't bring anything to the last Arlington show and regretted it. It was a pretty weak showing this time with a couple of the regulars not brining their "shaded and high-lighted" entries and my KIng Tiger would have won something. Well, we have to wait for the end of May for the next one. Problem for me is I've been building those 350 scale ships and they are too big and delicate to bring. Hopefully I'll get my "MEOW" campaign up and running so I can get one of those sweet Dragon Tigers built
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