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Causes of world war one
3442
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 06:47 AM UTC
Hi folks! hopefully everone having a good day
I took world hsitory this year in high school and were begining to study world war one. According to what were being told in class it seems like germany is responsible for it. Soon were also going to have debates were we will defend our contry and accuse the others. I was wondering if anyone could share there opinion on the topic and maybe links to a good site for info.

Thanks

Frank
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:06 AM UTC
IMHO, WWI was another stage in the territorial wars that plagued Europe throughout the second millenium and vestiges of that are still seen in the unrest in Bosnia today. periodically, one country or another would lust for the land controlled by another and would look for a reason to take this. It happened to have been one of the worst episodes as methodology (massed attack) clashed with technology (the machine gun) resulting in the murderous stalemate of trenches and no man's land.
See Wikidpedia for an overview.
ProfessorF8
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:06 AM UTC
Hew Strachan's monumental book on World War I for Oxford University Press has a decent essay at the beginning on this. Fairly concise, not too boring. Of course, if you look for Strachan's book on the shelf at the library or bookstore, your first thought will be "OH MY WORD IS HE SERIOUS?!!" Yes, the first volume is easily over eight hundred pages (all on events up through 1914) or so, but you won't be reading a tenth of that. Still, it'll arm you with heavier guns than anyone else. (For the record, Strachan is a Briton, but his account I think is fairly even-handed).

Much more reading, but almost as readable as a novel, is Barbara Tuchman's old The Guns of August and, it's prequel covering long-term causes, The Proud Tower. Actually, G of A is probably all you need, most covers the first few weeks/months of the war, too, and the book is a surprisingly gripping read. An almost Napoleonic atmosphere (cavalry sabres and red trousers), before Europe set about building the horrifically efficient murder-machine that was World War I.

Sorry to suggest books, but once in a while they do come in handy.
m1garand
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:06 AM UTC
This may be a good place to start:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm
m1garand
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:10 AM UTC
Here's another:

http://sdsd.essortment.com/worldwaricaus_nbk.htm
3442
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 08:34 AM UTC
Thanks for the responses guys. Thanks for the very usefull link ben, thats exactly the kind of stuff i was looking for.

Frank
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:34 AM UTC
Well if you think about it, WW1 is a serbian nationals fault,and deffinitely more Austria's fault than Gremany's, thoguh I suppose WW1 was almost fated to happen.
ProfessorF8
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 11:12 AM UTC
Today, Germany's fault is generally considered to be their glib 'blank check' to Austria, instead of doing more for mediation between Austria and Serbia. That said, Germany was not alone in generally treating the war as an inevitability. At the time, the spectre of what was going to happen (long war, horrific conditions due to new technology and organisation, political, strategic, and even moral bankruptcy of leadership and war aims, etc.) was predicted by only a few 'voices in the wilderness,' and these were generally ignored. Military men, if they didn't outright treat it as though it would be a 'roaring good show" and "over by christmas,' failed to show the proper measure of sombre, sober, reflection as they mobilized. If they had, albiet unlikely, perhaps things could have been different.

Contrast that, for example, to coalition leadership in the lead-up and opening hours of desert storm- granby-daguet, when they kept cautioning against "euphoria" and warned that the worst could still be to come. The most dire predictions didn't come to pass, but it was a healthy attitude nonetheless.
ProfessorF8
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 11:19 AM UTC
Indeed, as I think on it Europe had precedents to realise what the war would look like and cost. The close of the United States Civil War saw the beginnings of the fundamental problems of increased firepower without added mobility and protection (i.e. the triumph of the defensive in war of such density). More telling was the Russo-Japanese War. But European commanders were not disposed to look overseas. Of the US Civil War, Field Marshal Von Moltke (the elder) was reported to have said: "Nothing can be learned from two giant rabbles chasing each other about the wilderness." In retrospect Germany was lucky a few German politicians, egged on by various developments (including the socialist mutiny of the High Seas Fleet), acted decisively to end the war, and possibly spare German cities the fate of Atlanta, and parts of France and Belgium, for at least another several decades.
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:41 PM UTC
You have asked a very BIG question and you can go down an almost infinite number of rabbit holes to answer it, especially when all the nationalist revisionists get involved.

Allow me to offer a slightly different view.

The causes of WW1 were, in order, the Railroad, the Mobilization Process, the Treaties, hundreds of years of regional/national hatred, and a Serbian with a gun.

-- The Railroads gave all countries the means to move massive amounts of men, equipment, and supplies rapidly.
-- The mobilization process of each country became a very complex series of call-ups & movements to maximize the rail capability to get troops to their positions quicker, or as quick, than the other guy.
-- The Treaties of course locked various countries into if-this-then-that scenarios, many tied not to shots fired, but to start of mobilization.
-- As someone mentioned above, the Balkans are a hot-bed of hatred, which probably will never get sorted out (it isn't yet). Add to that the traditional French-British-Russian-German-etc-etc fooling around for centuries ....
-- Lastly, one hyperactive "patriot" with a gun, gives Austria an excuse to start a bar fight, which Russia just has to join for cultural/religious reasons, which gives Germany an excuse to cheer from the sidelines,and everyone else to take their treaty sides.
-- Rolling backward, the Treaties lock in, the General Staffs pull the Mob-plans, the trains begin to roll. The decision to go to war, if in fact there really was one, becomes locked into a tight schedule, backed up x-days/weeks to get ahead of the other guy, with no slack and no ability to change, modify, shorten, etc, this process to account for last minute diplomatic efforts. In short Armies had to mobilize & that just about always cuts off reasonable discourse.

IMHO ....

John
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Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 04:54 PM UTC
It is interesting how the railroads and mobilization problem caused a 'momentum' that European politicians proved unable or unwilling to swim against in order to prevent the conflict. Most historians agree that these are important.

For my money I'll go with the long-term hatreds/nationalism and general overconfidence of many leaders and peoples in the respective countries, that the war would be swift, decisive, and of course, for their side, vindicating, ala 1870, as the big causes. During the cold war, everyone rhuminated over the same sort of problem of "timetables of mobilization", but with much quicker time-tables. How much time do we have, if we think someone's fueling up solid-fueled missles? We can't talk if their fueled; they gotta lift off. What if he gets his first-strike birds in the air? Bombers--keep them in overhead alert! And yet, somehow we've survived so far (and God(s) willing we'll continue to do so), because unlike people before World War I, most of us on earth are quite certain that World War III will not be a camping trip, boy's night out, or a 'bully' opportunity to display our national prowess.

EDIT: Postscript: In a way, the lessons of the twentieth century's large-scale, 'total wars' is why I've always had respect for people who manned the IGB in Europe during the cold war. It's not as glamerous a story as the 'shooting wars' of the twentieth century, but to live, day to day, in the midst of what journalist Michael Skinner called "the largest piece of unfinished business" in the world at the time must have taken some fortitude. These troops and their families, if they didn't think about it all the time, must have known that if some fool politico makes a misstep it will mean a titanic tragedy in central Europe, even without nuclear weapons. Brigadier Simkins, a long-time Royal Army soldier, in his book Race to the Swift, pointed out that essentially, the pacifist movement was correct in pointing out that if war broke out between NATO and Warsaw Pact, there wouldn't be a Europe left winning. To just go about training, preparing, standing a post, and living, knowing that your life expectancy is measured in hours or, for example, with the US ACR or German border police, minutes, seems to me to display Spartanesque mettle. Same could/can be said for Korea.

Okay, wildly off topic, but there it is.
3442
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Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 08:33 AM UTC
Thanks for the info guys, im enjoying all the reading

Frank
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Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 08:14 PM UTC
This is exactly the kind of thread I would like to see more of on this forum. Well-mannered and considered this is exactly the kind of thread I would like to see more of...Francois, Nice One!...Jim
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:11 AM UTC
Frank,
Here's another to add to your reading list
"The First World War"
John Keegan
Vintage Books
1998

Steve
95bravo
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

. To just go about training, preparing, standing a post, and living, knowing that your life expectancy is measured in hours or, for example, with the US ACR or German border police, minutes, seems to me to display Spartanesque mettle. Same could/can be said for Korea.



More like seconds for some of us. Those in the Fulda Gap could be measured in seconds, for those of us in the south, (Augsburg and points southward) we were told in Bad Tolz that we had about three to five minutes after the first Mig screamed across the border. In addition to all of this, our mission was to traverse the distance between Bad Tolz to Augsburg via the Munich-Salzburg Autobahn to link with our company (218th MP Co) and deployed from there. We never expected to make it. It was over 80 miles on the open autobahn with (very slow) jeeps armed only with M-60s.

I appreciate very much your recognition of those of us who served during the Cold War...Thank you.
blaster76
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 06:37 AM UTC
If one goes back a few decades prior to the start of the First World War. It boils down a lot to imperialism. In 1870 the Franco - Prussian War would be a great place to start. Unification of Germany scared both France and England who began to bond after centuries of warfare between them. The beginning of the seapower race between Germany and England was another problem as well as the colonization rivalry that took place in Africa. Lets not forget all the alliances that actually set the stage for the final spark. World War 2 was but a continuation of the First War, as nothing got settled. We now see after the SOviet Unions rigid control over the Baltic area dissolved in the 1990's that once again the battles started up again. At least this time we all learned something from 90 years ago and didn't get wrapped up in a major conflict, thought in the mid to late 90's I thought we were repeating history
blaster76
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 06:53 AM UTC


I want to thank the "Professor" for his acknowledgement of the so called "cold war". As a participant of it, I tell people with great pride that we won that war. It was no less intense than the Iraqi war, Starring down the gun tube of a 122mm smoothbore mounted on a T-62 pointed at you from a klic away wasn't fun. Especially knowing that it was loaded and the guy had his finger on the trigger. Two buttons (release of safety and firing the gun) to Armagadeon.
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 09:10 AM UTC
Jumping in here late. I haven't got any of the references that the others have mentioned. This is just my own personal impression but it always seemed to me that WW1 was just a case of the countries in the world being primed for a war. This particularly seems true of Great Britain and Germany. After years of the naval arms race it was unlikely they were going to let all their pretty battleships go to waste without a good war to test them out in. That's just my take on it.

As for you and the cold war Steve, thank God the leaders of the world didn't have the same attitude towards their bombs.

Arthur
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:34 AM UTC
WW1,where do you start,take 1812,Napoleons defeat in Russia,Prussia breaks alliance with France,joins the allied armies,defeats Napoleon at the battle of Leipzig with other Allies including Austria,Prussia and Austria gain a self importance in European affairs,after the Napoleonic wars Prussia gains dominance over the Gemanic states,Austria gains the Austrian Hungarian Empire,and Russia is once more pushed into the sidelines,Britain retreates back into Empire and shuns Europe.Prussia flexes its muscles and takes on Austria and wins,Bismarck the Iron Chancellor has won out and the Germans have an Emperor to rival Franz Josef of the Austrian Hungarian Empire.A second Napoleon though a coup tries to restore the glory of France and the end result is disaster at Sedan and the occupation of Paris by the Prussians.The open sore left in this conflict was the Provinces of Alcasce and Lorraine.
Britain meantime was still concentrating on Empire,
and the race for Africa was on,and most of the European States were in it.Gemany felt it was the underdog in all this,and it wanted its"place in the sun"
and was modernising at a terrific pace,German steelworks at this time were the most modernised in the world and the German Navy was pushed ahead as a result of all this new technology,but Britain was always one step ahead in the race..Austria at this time was trying to hold together a ramshackle Empire together through brute force,with a ramshackle army,and was losing the plot,from then on in it was all down hill.Through a very complicated series of agreements to support each other in case of aggression by other states,the silly buggers were locked in by diplomatic agreement to support each other,Germany and Austria,France and Russia,and Britain and Belgium,(Britain was to guarantee Belgian neutrality}....Germany and Austria were partners,France and Russia were partners,Gemany looked upon Austrians as being Germanic,Russia looked at the Serbians as being fellows Slavs,it was a tinderbox,a centuries old tinderbox,and when Gavrilo Priceps lit the fuse it all went off......this is a vey simplistic post but it is a vey complicated story.
Arthur
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 11:31 AM UTC
Hi Francois, just my two-penn'orth. In my view the reasons for the outbreak of WW1 were more subtle than mere sabre-rattling & "imperialism".
The early years of the 20th Century mark the end or the beginning of the end of the global influence of the old empires, Russia, Britain, Austro-Hungary & France, & the rise of the newer indusrialised nation states, Germany & USA. It was not realised at the time, but with hindsight it was obvious that this would happen. It might be easier to examine each country's view at a time.
The continued cost of the British Empire was becoming a millstone around Britians neck, & it is often forgotten that there was a recession in the early years of the new century. Britain had just fought the Boer War, the cost of which in monetary terms or in casualties had far exceeded expectations. The large fleet was a steady drain. British foreign policy continued to be to discourage the appearance of any dominant force in Europe, a view that was sure to bring them into diplomatic if not military conflict with the Kaisers Germany. In 1839, Britain had signed a document (the famous "Scrap of Paper") guaranteeing the independence of Belgium, & it was this that brought Britain into the war when Germany marched in in 1914.
France had been humiliated in 1870. It was plain that it was no longer the dominant country in Western Europe, & was living on it's past. In 1871, France had lost Alsace & Lorraine to Germany, & dearly wanted this territory back. To stave off future German aggression, France allied itself to Czarist Russia, thus threatening Germany with encirclement fuelling German paranoia.
Russia itself was in turmoil, already the seeds of the coming Revolution had been sown, despite belated reforms (eg the end of serfdom). While Russia was strong in population, it was backward industrially. Many of the European nations did not totally trust Russia, as they feared Russian expansionist aims southwards.
Austria-Hungary was a broken reed, a loose confederation of states & peoples which was rapidly coming unravelled. Many of these states sought independence from the empire, & it is not surprising that the spark for war came from the Balkans. While it was a Serb who fired the fatal shot @ Sarajevo, it was unreasonable demands from Austria threatening Serbia that ensured the squabble in the Balkans would lead to more wide-ranging war. The two Germanic states were of course, allies, this is what pulled Germany in.
Germany was the new major power in Europe. With an expanding population & industry, Germany, for centuries a loose amalgam of small states, was now united under Prussian leadership. Germany felt itself surrounded by unfriendly, envious nations in Europe. It colonies were an expression of its need to expand somewhere. The futile naval race with Britain reflected it's growing industrial might. German grand strategy for a major European war was to hold on the Eastern front & strike rapidly against France (the Schlieffen Plan, which dated back at least 20 years). With France destroyed the Germans would be free to turn on Russia at leisure. German strategists discounted British interference. The British Army was considered too small to affect their plans, & anyway the British performance against the Boers (who many Germans championed) was not inspiring. The Schlieffen Plan ws not really relevant to a conflict originating in the Balkans, but when war came in 1914, Germany found that it was the only plan they had on the shelf, so they used it.
In European terms, America at this time had little interest. The USA was inward looking, it had a large land mass to administer & colonise internally, it had little real need of outward expansion. The frontier had only been closed for a decade or so. While America took a close interest in Mexican & Central & South American affairs, Europe was too remote, although it would soon provide a market for growing American industry.
It can be seen that in this volatile atmosphere, the spark in the Balkans was fatal. The military men of Europe had not heeded the warniings from the previous century, & the recent Russo-Japanese conflict. The French doctrine was firmly grounded in attack, preferably with the bayonet. Britain had at least trained its riflemen well, but all the nations underestimated the effect of quick-firing guns & machine guns. Germany had a lot of nice new equipment to try out. I don't know if this necessarily makes them the guilty party though.
jRatz
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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:11 PM UTC
To sum all this up, WW1 was just a big Gang-Fight.

The same macho BS that leaves people, many just kids, laying in the streets of every city in the world today -- somebody disses(disrespects) somebody else & neither one can let it go until some perverted sense of "honor" has been satisfied .... On the high-faluting global history scene, these of course are larger than some comment about your mother, but the principle is the same ...

Sometimes I think a nice quick GTW (Global Thermonuclear War) would be great & we'll see if whatever springs up a few million years from now can do a better job ....

Break:
Cold War. I was a trip-wire for 4 years (US 3AD, 70-74). We all knew our mission was to die gallantly so public opinion would justify a massive response. Of course, dying also meant our families over there, because soldiers dying wouldn't be enough, there had to be some women & children .... We were on a simple CPX when the Arabs & Israelis decided to do their gang-fight thing in '73. Orders came out to stay there, "just in case", but they wouldn't send us any ammo, "just in case". .... There was this unworkable evac plan that all dependents would somehow flow seamlessly by autobahn to Rhein-Main Air Base & be flown out, with 1st stop being the UK. No one really asked what the UK would do with 400K dependents, or how the US would even "vet" all those folks to see if there wasn't an infiltrator. My wife's plan was to grab some lederhosen & a schnitzel & stand on the corner saying Ja-Ja while the T-xx rolled by ....

I better quit, getting a bit sarcastic here ....

But it is a wnoderful discussion.

John

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Posted: Friday, September 16, 2005 - 04:06 PM UTC


John I was there 77-80. When I fist arrived that was our plan too. In late 77 -early 78 we got ahold of some of the T-62's and found out what absolute pieces of crap they were. We lost our fear and doctrine changed from waiting for them 5 klic's west of Fulda to greeting them at the border. My Brigade moved form Baumholder to Chicken-Liken (PCS) to greet them if they came across. Now this is what is really interesting. I talked with a guy this past week who served with that Oposition force. He told me that 2 /3 of their vehicles were broken down and unserviceable. They would literally tow them around at night and park them someplace else so our recon satalites/ aircraft would see they had moved and didn't kow they were broken. They were scared to death WE were going to find out and come crashing across the border to get them.

Back on topic. I always thought I knew so much about the origins, but taking it back as far as the end of the Napoleonic wars is truely enlighening.
ProfessorF8
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 01:46 AM UTC
If you want to really get wild, you can take it back before the Napoleonic wars!

The concept of a 'nation at war' (re)emerges during the French revolutionary conflict. Most eighteenth century armies in Europe were like the armies that many countries are working toward today; small, very elite, in some cases 'all-volunteer,' (although this generally meant the most destitute in society enlisted), and, in the minds of their princes, very expensive. Kings, Queens and Generals didn't like to throw these troops away willy-nilly, so the best strategists attempted to avoid battle unless at great advantage. Well, "war means fighting, and fighting means killing," so very often these plans went awry and you had several hours of butchery, like Blenheim, or Minden. There were exceptions, but generally, most field armies stayed below the 100,000 mark.

The French revolution, to generalize, changed all that. Now, the army was a 'people's army." At the core were Louis' whitecoats, the old royal army, but surrounding them were a mass of hundreds of thousands of troops. What was the King's private chess-set became the army of the revolution. Now, real slaughter was unleashed, becuase these people weren't mere mercenaries, they were hard-core believers. (interesting to see how tactics change in the period as well--light infantry REALLY takes off, now that individual troops can be trusted with initiative, without this meaning instant desertion, for example). Essentially, the rest of Europe went hte same direction, nationalism, to defeat France. (England can be regarded as an exception, regarding army size, but the 'conscription' in the Navy makes that a dubious exception)

The French revolution taught Europe and the world a lot in terms of representative government, social justice, human rights, but as a result, unwittingly unleashed a new form of warfare more terrible than ever before, culminating in the horrendous slaughter of the twentieth century.
blaster76
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 05:08 AM UTC
I 've always kind of lumped the French Revolution in with the Napoleonic era as he was instrumental in it's continuence and influence on the rest of Europe. Personally, my opinion is all wars influence later wars in some means or fashion. So the origins of World War 1 could even be pushed back to the 100 years wars and probably as far back as the Roman Empire if one wanted to push it.
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Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I 've always kind of lumped the French Revolution in with the Napoleonic era as he was instrumental in it's continuence and influence on the rest of Europe. Personally, my opinion is all wars influence later wars in some means or fashion. So the origins of World War 1 could even be pushed back to the 100 years wars and probably as far back as the Roman Empire if one wanted to push it.



Good point, although well past my capability to "prove", I would suspect that one could develop threads from different regions & times that lead to WW1.

Some thoughts:
-- The Crusades with Muslim/Christian conflict certainly influence Balkan conditions.
-- 16th-17th Century for much of Europe.
-- 19th Century for rise of German state.

John