I would like to throw out a question to all of you on the subject of Judging. What was the worst model that you have judged, that actually a 1st place or worst yet Best of catagory? The reason why I am posting this is to get very ones opinon on their worst model show experiences. A couple of years ago I had gone to a model show and contest, and judged it as well. After all was said and done I went around to get my opinon on the judging and to my surprise the model that I thought should have taken 1st place did not even place. The model that I knew for sure would not even come close to even placing took a 1st and Best of catagory. I saw glue marks, sean lines................etc. on the winning model, end of story. #:-)

Wolf - I can recall several, upon several, instances like you mentioned. But, summing them up, all were cases of mild, unintended, and overt cases where it's easy to suspect "home cooking" in absence of figuring out any other cause.

Though I've judged models that I sincerely felt were not of the caliber of others in the running for a "Best" award - mine was but one opinion among others. The higher the award placement, the less objective it seems to get sometimes. Sometimes technical merit falls to artistic license, other times the "biggest is the bestest". Sometimes an aircraft modeler who's sucessfully completed a model kit renown for being pretty rotten gets a nod over an armor or car modeler who did an equally impressive "dog" from their own genre - all because not everyone is equally knowledgable on the quality of all the model kits present in the room.

Hell - there's only one Sabot!

And, there's other ugly events I've witnessed where the modeler obviously thinks more of their work than the judges present in the room - and spits this venom back freely at any and everyone present. I've dealt with these instances personally. There is no hard-and-fast rule with handling modelers gone ape-$#&@ over what they think is an injustice leveled on them, and it isn't fun! There's one clown who got in my face in 1995 - who still carries the grudge for me telling him is opinion was uninformed and garbage to this day still!

I see plenty of models get lauded but bear ejector pin marks, glue blobs, severe alignment problems, seams not removed on tires, windshield masking patterns either spurious or gone awry, missing parts from the kit altogether, and canopy or frame masking that looks horrendous win at contests. Instead of letting it get to me, I smile and congratulate the modeler. Sometimes the encouragement spurs one on to get better.

You, as a more experienced modeler, can really set a positive and lasting impression by sharing your knowledge and technique when in the middle of a situation like those - sometimes with little more than a smile and nod.

Gunnie

This is the primary reason I dont enter anymore. I was caught in the middle of a situation where I was asked to judge at the last moment.
I tackled the oppurtunity with great zeal!!! I enjoyed myself beyond belief!
I decided to concentrate on what made each model unique in its own way and the effort and time each modeler invested in his subject. Realism was a tremendous % of my overall judging.
My decisions in the Best of class catergories were all pretty much on par with the other judges.
It was when they announced best of show that all hell broke loose.
My entry, 4 F-11F Tiger Blue Angels, WON. I was stunned!!
My excitement and pride lasted all of 30 seconds. I hadn't even received the trophy when I was accused of "fixing" the vote. I was no longer stunned. I was livid!!!!
I found my judging notes and showed them that I didn't even include my kit. I COMPLETELY BYPASSED IT!!!!!
After I had been physically threatned,insulted, and told that my membership in the modeling club might be "/reviewed". I told them they could shove the trophy up their *%#, I collected my set and left.
About 6 months after that fiasco, I heard the club fell apart.
I didn't care, I had already started my own club, but the experience has soured me from ever entering again.

Wow - sorry to read that LambertJR - I've heard stories like that before but chalked them up to "modeler's urban legends" - but haven't run into somebody that it had happen to them.

Just when you think you've heard it all...

Gunnie

Why the heck do people get so upset about stuff like that??? IMO, a medal (or trophy) is just that, a medal. It dosent say that a particular model is yor best work, is the most accurate, or that you're even satisfied with it. It just means a judge likes your work. I don't, and never will, build something just to make other people think it's good. I build for myself, because I enjoy the challenge of the hobby.
I don't try to make better models in pursuit of a medal. What's the fun it that?
I also think the idea that one person's model is better than another's is a joke. Whatever happens, people build what they like, how they like it.

YodaMan

While not necessarily a "bad" experience, I can give the details of a recent event which gives further insight into how some do judging.

I recently entered into a competition where we all had to paint/model the same figure. As the entry deadlined loomed, myself and a friend were the only one's who had shown up. At the last minute, a couple of new entries showed up. One look at one of them, which was based on an incredibly sculpted piece that represented waves breaking on the rocks as they rolled in. The judging took place and we could see the judges actually arguing with each other and pointing at the various models.

Now, I had already figured out who had won. The model with the custom base was, in my book the best, followed by mine and then my friend's. When they announced the decision, I was a bit amazed, but I learned a lot.

The one I chose as first, did indeed win first place. However, the judges made it clear that they had discounted the base. While it was impressive, the base was not part of the contest rules. Instead, they pointed at some particulars that impressed them. They had decided that, the overall piece, was the one that most represented the character that was painted.

My friend, who I don't think is a great painter, took second place and I took third. They pointed out what they had liked on each of our models. Afterwards, I talked to the judges, looking for criticism that could help me improve. I was told that my technique was good. Good enough to consistently rank in future contests. It turned out that my friend placed better than me because his piece was more "pleasing to the eye." The judges had decided to judge based on a) which piece illustrated the essence of the subject and b) which piece "worked."

I learned a valuable lesson that day: learn the concept of the color wheel, use complimentary colors (hots vs. colds), and don't be afraid to ask for help. I'm partially colorblind so I guess I have to live with the last one. *grin* I also learned that, sometimes, technique alone isn't enough to win. (Sorry about the diatribe, but I figured it might help make someone pause and think about what they are judging....or maybe help someone understand why they may not have done as well as they thought they should have.)

You are wise beyond your years, grasshopper.

I don't have any intention of entering one of my projects into a contest. Those that do, good on yah, mate, and best of luck. But I, too, build for my own pleasure. I have yet to award myself a medal, because I always see where I could have done better, and the next model will be the better for it. The only trophy I want, is for a friend or acquaintance to walk past my bookshelf displays, and say, "wow, that looks cool." For me, it's like dying and going to heaven.

Mike

I've been judging for almost 20 years now at local and regional events, mostly IPMS style, though I did work at the AMPS East show in Sept. 2001. I can honestly say, I don't think I've ever been involved in a Best of category/placement that has been questioned. I've had people complain that their work didn't get an award, but my judging teams and I were able to justify that without a qualm. On a couple occasions, I've been been very dissatisfied with my own results and I think a couple of these may have been the judges wriiting the results inreverse order. My personal worsts were a supre detailed M-2 Bradley which didn't place when another piece of armor had riders with kelly green web gear took an award and when a heavily detailed Ti-67 (Israeli reworked Russian T-55) came in third to an M-113 based mortar carrier that still had ejector pin marks in the doors.
But as the song says. "Loose your money, learn to loose". Or you pays your money, you takes your chances.

I have been mostly in the Automotive model crowd for the last few years for one reason. NNLs! The NNL, and all of its offshoot shows are based on fun, rather than winning. They dispense with the judges, and do a couple of theme awards, a people's choice, and maybe a celebrity pick.

I got to the point where I hated going to a big show, even if I wasn't competing, because the whining of the losers seemed to overpower the rest of the show, and by Sunday, everybody was glad to be leaving. I always figured that, if I didn't win, I needed to build a better model. The main reason I went to judged shows was to improve my modeling abilities, and force myself to build better models. Losing actually achieved that goal better than winning did!

One show I really remember is one where every loser said his piece publicly at the awards banquet, ,and most of the contestants got their trophies to a mix of applause, (Their friends) and boos, (The loser's friends) The second in show finisher didn't even come up to get his trophy, he just hollered an insult at the promoter, and the judging process. The Juniors showed the adults how to take second place with dignity, although two parents had to be restrained, ,and one winner got his trophy smashed.

I used to judge, so I know some of the problems associated with it. Too many models, not enough time, and always a model that looks pretty good, but you don't know enough about the real subject to give it a fair shake. It's really cool to come to a show with a Pigeon-Fraiser pursuit, or a Christmas Bullet, (both actual planes that I have seen at Flying Aces events BTW) but don't expect the judges to know it by heart. Better have documentation for it!

I have also faced the wrath of contestants, and the modeling community is not always blessed with the most graceful losers. Maybe it is our military nature, (Although the car guys can be really hostile too) or the fact that we attract some antisocial types to hobby, because of its solitary nature. I have also judged fish shows for the past fifteen years or so, and I have almost never gotten a rude response or accusation after one of them. The stakes are a lot higher there too, as most of them pay a grand or more for Best in show, and breeders can get quite a premium for offspring of show winners. Of course, there are quite a few more variables with fish, and the show people know that, so they usually cut the judges a bit more slack. (A model never hides in the back of it's tank, or clamps its fins shut, and changes its color when the judge is looking at it!) I have also been at several Flying Aces types of events, and they don't have many problems with the judging either. (Flying Aces are the Stick and tissue, rubber powered flying models) Although maybe because after a day of flying and chasing models in the hot sun, the scale judging is mostly forgotten.

I like showing off my work, and looking at other people's, so I will continue going to shows, but I tend to seek out the NNL events, and the fun shows, now. I'm getting too old for all of the cloak and dagger stuff! I also don't judge anymore, (Unless it swims!) I wish the military and Aircraft shows would try the display only concept more often. It really brings out the newer modelers, and the guys who don't get into the politics.

Dave

I would take not winning at a contest to be a good opportunity to improve my skills.

Of the 3 contests I've ever entered, I've won 2. The first was when I was about 8, and I won with a 1/72 Fw-190D-12 coversion (with scratchbuilt cockpit, which is what I think gave me an edge. But I have no idea what the other entrants looked like, because I wasn't there for the day - I just dropped the model off. For all I know, I was completing against unpainted beginners.

The second was not for kits - it was to design and aircraft (basic plans) and scratchbuild a model of it, if desired. I sent in an entry that was derived from the XB-70, with a model made from paper, tape, putty, varnish and paint, and won (but never collected the prize, which was an aircraft flight). Again, I wasn't there for judging - I was at boarding scool in another city.

The third was recently, with the local IPMS. My entries, which I bult over ten years ago (I only recently resumed modelling) were so completely outclassed I could possibly have taken "worst on show" - but I learnt a lot about what I need to do to improve my skills.

I just want to thank all of you for your comments and stories [good or bad]. But as a kinda, closing word, I just want to say this, as model, figure, and or diorama builders, we are in a sence, artists. I beleive that we as builders should be building for our selfs and also to be building [for lack of a better comment] to preserve the historical aspect of what you are building. In short build the best representation of that model you can! Have doing it also Thank you all.

My Judging Opinion - Judging is Subjective! Just as the build is subjective, the judging is too.

My lesson in that was actually with my son and his Karate. Off models so I'll keep it short. My son practiced and nailed the karate routine technically better than all the other kids. BUT, was not as flashy and did not get the judges attention and did not medal. Bummer lesson to learn for him. PITA lesson to learn for me as his Dad.

Bottom line - Build to suit yourself, enter a contest for the FUN OF IT.

I've been on both sides of the contest table. For the most part, I do have to say that model judging is subjective, but I do think some judges go to the extreme. One example of this was at a contest where an entrant had an M1A1 on the table. I was not judging the catagory but in my opinion it was one of the best models in it's category. However, when judging was done, it didn't even place. The reason? The judges thought that the color was wrong. The entrant had an answer for this. He was in the Army and used the same paint that they used on the actual M1A1.
Of course the judges responded to this with the ol' scale effect ploy.
Now as to when I have judged, I usually take the following approach:
1. eliminate the models that are definately substandard, i.e. sloppy glue marks, bad joints, hair in paint, etc.
2. examine all details of building: all joins that should be puttied and sanded are done so, paint is applied with expertise, road wheels touch the ground (always a big one for me), no silvering of decals, etc.
3. if by this time you don't have a 1st, 2nd, &3rd, look for the fine points of detailing. kitbags and packs are depicted as actually hanging from something, not just glued onto the side of a tank., overthick parts thinned down, weathering is appropriate to the tank, etc.

Listening to some of these "Horror" stories, I don't know if I ever want to enter in a show,regardless if I think I should win something or not. I mean really I thought we were all adults here.

I attended the IPMS Helsinki Open show some weeks ago with five dioramas that fell into two categories, hardware and figure dioramas. There were only three works in the hardware category and not many more in figure dioramas. The work that won the figure diorama category, was a white metal historical figure vignette. I wouldn´t call it a diorama but it was technically excellent. However, it didn´t feel much of competition but when I was spending some time there I realized a better reason for me to be there than the contest as two young boys came to ask me about techniques about making a base, groundwork, painting...They also attended in the armor category and I was quite impressed because at their age I wouldn´t have touched any tank model as I thought they were so difficult to build. These guys had managed very well indeed!
The next time I go to a show it will be for those boys and I will be there to give any help I can. Finland is a small country with small amount of modelers..
The best reward for me would be to make models that inspire people including myself! !


Toni

Great story Toni, That is the real reason I do contests, to help, and learn from other modelers. I don't care so much who wins. We have a group up here that might try to hold a display only show, next year. We have done one for cars, and it was a big success. Now we are talking about adding planes, Armor, ships, and figures to it. With no judging to worry about, the builders can feel free to share ideas, ask questions, and enjoy the models.

Ah, contests -- the place to see the best and worst things about our hobby.

I've been involved in many, many contests -- everything from IPMS Nationals down to mall and hobby shop contests. I have judged with IPMS rules, AMPS rules, Chicago rules and no rules. I've also been involved in NNL-type shows. All (except "no rules") have plusses and minuses.

Don't let a bad experience or two sour you from attending contests. If all you are worried about is winning or losing, you will likely be disappointed. If you go to a show with the attitude of learning and expanding your experience, you wil have a better time. This is a rather solitary hobby -- before the Internet, clubs, contests and shows were the only places modelers could get together and share their love of the hobby. Go and enjoy -- and let the medals and ribbons fall where they may.

One contest "war story" -- the Kansas City area has several model contests each year. One year, our local club in Leavenworth hosted a contest in which we used a modified IPMS system -- and we had LOTs of added categories, especially for car and truck models. One modeler, who we nicknamed "the Whiner," came in right before entries closed, scouted the room, then went out to his car trunk to pull out models to enter in categories that had few or no entries -- thus "ensuring" he would win something.

Well, the Whiner's stuff was awful -- glue smudges, THICK dust, fingerprints, silvered decals, runny paint jobs, no attempt to fill gaps or sand seams, many models not painted at all, broken and missing parts ... you get the picture. Now this guy wasn't a newbie or disabled -- he was just lazy. A couple of his models managed thirds, but most were just too awful to reward with a ribbon. A few of the judges thought we shouldn't shut out his models, no matter how bad they were, but the majority ruled -- we based the decision on the basics of model building, which is the first consideration in IPMS judging.

All through the show, the Whiner and his girlfriend roamed the contest room lobbying judges and promoting his stuff to anyone else who would listen. They never praised another modeler's work, never asked a question, never tried to interact with other modelers ... in fact, they seemed to take great delight in pointing out comparatively minor problems on other people's models, especially the junior entries. The kicker came when we counted the "People's Choice" ballots and realized that he and his girlfriend had stuffed the ballot box.

When the awards were passed out, the Whiner and his lady friend became loud, profane and argumentative. Our head judge tried to tactfully explain things, but they wouldn't hear it. Whiner and friend scooped up all their models, threw them all in a big box and dumped them in the trunk of the car. In the process, they managed to damage a few other people's models and insult just about everyone.

In retrospect, I can't help but wonder how many people -- some attending a model contest for the first time -- had their opinion soured by this jerk's actions.

I don't/won't judge. I don't enter either. I prefer to display my kits and take constructive criticism. I'll also give constructive criticism when asked.
I like to bring in kits to my local club for others to see. I build for me and me alone.

Disclaimer: If this question was answered in error, or an answer not required/expected/wanted, please notify me and I will delete the post. This post is not intended as an attack on any persons posting prior to or after this post. Please feel free to disregard/disbelieve/discount any information contained in the post.

I'd like to add my own horror story to the mix.
I went to a brand new show in a neighboring state. A nice show, well organized and attended. There was an entry in the diorama catagory of an automotive junkyard. The base must have been an old door. Huge! Tons of vehicles on it plus buildings, fences, etc.
Very impressive! Unfortunately, the build quality was rather poor (my opinion). I think it took "Peoples Best", which I can understand. What I could not understand was how it won Judges Best of Show. It was big and flashy and all but the judges should know enough to ignore flash in favor of quality.
I too no longer judge if I can get away with it. But I will say that when I did judge, it taught me more than I would have expected to learn. I now know that I cannot be objective enough to suit myself. And when I judged with people whose opinions I respected, I realized that I did not have the "eye" for detail that a good judge needs. I would miss errors that they would easily pick out. And I would see what I thought were flaws that they felt were minor at best.
And listening to fellow judges campaign for a friend's model that was just awful was very disheartening.
So now, I go to shows just for the fun I can have. I get to see lots of good models, visit with my "twice-a-year" friends, and just have a good time. I still enter my models but if I don't win, I don't let it bother me. My first and most important critic is me. If I don't like my model then I have only myself to blame.
Enough of my ranting!

I recently entered a show that I usually enter(except for last year)and place in.The club recently entered IPMS affiliation and I was pleased.I entered an out of the box model but missed placing to a "New Product" kit. I don't believe in fighting the judging or complaining about my placement,it's unprofessional and doesn't promote the hobby.What I didn't like,apon reflection,is that I had no clue as to the reasons I didn't place.No way of knowing where to improve or what needed fixing.This does lead to feelings of fustration.I believe that,maybe, there should be a comment sheet for each model.I wasn't sure if my model was disqualified from OTB because there was photo-etch, gauze for netting,or white metal parts, which were all included in the kit,but written as not allowable as OTB.Maybe the paint job wasn't up to snuff.Maybe there was a mistake somewhere that I didn't see.All of this aside,there can be no constuctive comments if there is no comment at all.How can we grow,as a group,if we don't share information?The internet has changed that alot but with the sacrifice of interperson contact.I do understand that the suggestion of judges comment papers would open up the judges to contestants refuting thier judging but,"all judging is final" should be all that is needed to be said.The show I attended was civil,though,so it was enjoyable.I plan on having comment npapers for my model at the next on and not just for judges.I believe any comment is better than stumbling around uninformed
CONFUSION

Jon.
Did you seek out the jjudges? I know at the end of some shows the day has gotten way too long and everyone want to get home, sometimes a long way off. Did you try to e-mail the addy from the flyer, if there was one? I just replied to a 3rd place winner about why his Panther didn't come out better in our OOB contest. Hopefully, the info wil help hom grow in his skills. Some clubs do have the comment sheet option, but the judges are often way pressed for time and don't get to fill these out. Did you indicate the "extras" were included in the kit and include the instruction sheet? Not all judges know what comes with every model.
BTW, your kit sounds like the Heller AMX-13 Israeli version.
Al

Close on the model! It was a Heller AMX-30 AUF 1. Real pig of a kit but would love to find another one.I want one in Iraqi service.The judges were pressed for time and so was I.As for the Club page,there is no way of knowing who judged what.Also,I don't want to deter anyone from judging or holding shows by submitting what could be construed as a complaint.I am appreciative of the fact that someone volunteered for the judging roll and maybe I will volunteer for next years. I am truely happy with, what I consider, the continued growth of our beloved hobby. I just felt that I needed constructive criticism that I could use to better fullfill the potential of my models.In all fairness,I don't think that the judges were wrong.I was rushed on the project.I was out of the hobby for over a year and wanted to get a model in so I started 2 weeks earlier! Plus,I was also working on a Trumpeter Type 88 K1!
I only entered the AMX because the K1 fell short of completion.Now,this doesn't mean that the AMX was a disaster.I believe it came out great! Yet,there were some things that I knew could be improved.I like to converse about the subject of modelling(can you tell?!!!) but feel very isolated at shows.