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Modeling in General: Advice on...
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Some questions about snipers
YodaMan
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 09:59 AM UTC
In preparation for the group diorama campaign, I have a few questions: ( for the sake of ease, I'll say the sniper in question is a WW II era US soldier )
What makes a sniper a sniper? I assume he has at least some special gear, the rifle and ammo... but would he have a different uniform? (patches, camo, etc.)
Would he typically carry only the sniper rifle, or would he also have the mainstream weapons?
What kind of weapons would he be carrying? Could I just give a plain 'ol figuire a high power rifle to turn him into a sniper?
And finally, who makes some good sniper figures? Where can I get a (scale ) rifle?
...there was one more question, but I forgot it...

Thanks to all who reply!

YodaMan
Envar
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 11:03 AM UTC
I seems that in the war the equipment vary a lot according to the availability of items. I just bought a book about Finnish uniforms, and most of the pics showed soldiers wearing whatever they had to put on! Some of men in the same picture wear polish helmets, other guys wear german models. One has a Mosin-Nagant rifle, another has a ppsh SMG...
The equipment of a sniper depends greatly on his mission.
Veijo Meri wrote about a Russian sniper in his short story "The Killer" and described the routines of a day in a sniper´s life. He woke up early, ate porrige and bread, did his things in the toilet and packed up with a rifle and 60 rounds of special quality ammo.
He had a knife, some sort of blanket to lay on and an overcoat in a backpack plus some drinking water. With this set he could lay down in one spot the whole day...crawled in the position, camouflaged himself and started waiting...

Toni
Armor135
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:03 PM UTC
I dont have answers for what makes a Sniper a Sniper but I might be able to help you with something else. Tamiya does a figure set 1/35, and theres an American guy laying down holding a rifle, you could replace the rifle with something else? Also, Verlinden does a 1/16 scale WWII German Sniper. Thats about all I know, and Iam sure you could alter a lot of figures to make them Snipers, especially modern snipers, just dress them up in a Ghillie suit.

You can rent the movies "Enemy At the Gates," "Sniper" And theres a movie with Harrison Ford, theres some Snipers in there, one guy goes through training with 1 guy looking for him and 2 guys in a tank spotting.

Hope this helps.
Mike
salt6
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:45 PM UTC
WW II snipers would use either a M1903A4 or a M1C or later a D. You could also get away with a pistol as an additional weapon.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1903.htm

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/Variations.html

http://www.snipersparadise.com/fm2310/fm2310.htm

http://www.snipercountry.com/BVT_Reviews/Sniper.htm

http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/snipers.htm

http://www.io.com/~pogue/US.htm
YodaMan
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 01:59 PM UTC
Thanks for the help guys!
Toni, did US snipers ever carry much camoflauge? What if one was hiding in a half destroyed guardhouse? (think a small shack at one end of a bridge...)
Mike, thanks! I remebered seeing some of the figures you mentioned, but I forgot they were Tamiya.
Steve, thanks for the links! I didn't know the M1 could be used by snipers... but then again, 8 months ago I didn't know what a Sherman was either!
...Then came ArmoramA :-)

YodaMan
SS-74
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 02:29 PM UTC
Actually the M1 was constantly used as Sniper rifle from WW II, all the way till early part of the Vietnam War. There was an Oz Movie called "The Last Bullet" which features the duel of two snipers, One Oz with an American M1, another Japanese one with a Japanese long rifle. Very powerful movie, you might also wanna to check it out, as it gives an unusual sniper dio, you can build either an Oz one, or a Japanese one. The New Smiley are too cool!
salt6
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 03:51 PM UTC
The M1C/D will have a scope and two types of flash supressors. The scope is detachable so the rifle could use standard sights. I believe the cone type was late or post WW2. Our CMP just finshed a lottery selling off the last of the M1C/Ds that were in the army inventory. I believe some Were still in issue to special units until the mid to late '80s.

The 1903 was less front sight so couldn't be used with out a scope.

Camo I've seeen in phots is minimal but I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't do a gillies suit in any event. Maybe a white sheet or snow suit for snow but not much else.

Here's one more idea. I've seen phots of GI using captured equipment. Who's to say a guy isn't using a captured 98 or G43 as a sniper weapon?

Plasticbattle
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 11:39 PM UTC
Im sure DML have a set of snipers in 1/35. There are four in the kit.... 2 are dressed in winter camo and the other two, in spring, or autumn camo.
shiryon
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:30 AM UTC
DML's sniper set is more toward NAM or DS and includes accurised M14 and some bolt action rifles. To the best of my knowledge US snipers in WW2 were at least early on an ad hoc thing.I dont believe there was a sniper school per say. So I would doubt that there was any special gear aside from some scopes,(probablyoff the shelf).That of course doesn't rule out field modification dy individual troops.MAybe some one could shed light on the US sniper history.

Josh WEingarten
aka shiryon
AIRB842586
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:31 AM UTC
Is that the DML/Dragon Modern Sniper Team? Because I've been looking for that but it's out of production from what I've been told. Anyone know where I may get it?
penpen
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 03:23 AM UTC
If you're looking for DML's modern sniper team, you can by them et blast-models .
DML also has a set of german WWII snipers.
slodder
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 03:53 AM UTC
To let you know - Dragon does (did?) produce a german snipper kit - four figures are included, two winter, two 'other' seasons.
I just got it yesterday from my local shop and I know a month ago they didn't have it in stock.
ARENGCA
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 04:16 AM UTC
Weighing in:

Sniper is more of an occupation or mission than it is a certain group of equipment. Any soldier (preferably one who can shoot straight) can be assigned as a sniper. His targets are individual high-value targets, according to whatever definition of high-value is appropriate. Officers and heavy weapons teams would be two examples. The US Army used to have (and I believe still does have) several sniper weapons in each infantry company, which were/are usually an accurized M14 or something similar, which were/are simply assigned to the best shooters in the company. Usually the ad-hoc snipers are shooting at relatively shorter ranges, not the 800-1200 meters of the specially trained and armed snipers.

Trained-to-purpose snipers are more common these days, and most of the docu-channels have had a special or six about them. These are the guys who will move invisibly and silently through the woods, or hide in the hayloft for hours waiting for the one shot at ludicrous range. These are the guys in the ghillie suits and snow smocks, and have been trained to account for wind, temperature, mood of the bullet, and target attitude. Their training is intensive, and results in a literal man-hunter. Often these types of snipers are sent out in teams of two or three men, without other troops to support them.

So, simply handing a soldier a slightly better rifle, or giving him a mission to shoot a certain type of target, makes him a sniper. Sending him to a special school, and giving him special equipment makes him a Sniper.

Clear? Probably not, eh!? Oh, well. Hopefully this helps a little.
MadMeex
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 05:17 AM UTC
I purchased a book on German snipers from 1914-1945, and they seemed to have a bunch of specialized gear that could be modelled to make them stand out. What I remember off the top of my head are red goggles so that they don't lose night vision when in a friendly camp, some specialized camo gear, and some funky hides, like an artificial hollow tree, etc.

An Osprey book on the Soviets shows the sniper with what look like baggy coveralls, and some thread (artificial camouflage) sewn all over it. It also shows women snipers, so that could be a change of pace. They also often travelled with spotters, so two figures could be modelled.

Mika
YodaMan
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 08:47 AM UTC
I found my sniper!
Took a trip to Hobby Lobby and got Dragon's 101'st Airborn troops... It's got four figures dressed for winter, with heavy clothes and overcoats. It's got the perfect sniper, he's crouching and taking aim... I just need to add a small scope to the gun.
I also picked up some of the craft paints too. Nine 2oz. bottles @ .88 cents each. Cool! I can actually afford to get more!

YodaMan
PS - Here's some German snipers at Squadron.com
penpen
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 09:01 AM UTC
Sorry Yoda, but these german guys are not snipers... The scope that you see on the gun is an Infra Red scope (if I'm not misled). I don't know if an assault rifle would be used for sniping.
YodaMan
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 09:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Sorry Yoda, but these german guys are not snipers... The scope that you see on the gun is an Infra Red scope (if I'm not misled). I don't know if an assault rifle would be used for sniping.


Hmmm... Guess the should change the name to something else then... Can you tell I don't know too much about weapons?

YodaMan
REMEARMR
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 06:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know if an assault rifle would be used for sniping.


Most purpose built sniper rifles now-a-days are still bolt action rifles(except the Dragunov which is semi.).The problem with having an assault rifle as a sniper rifle is the recoiling working parts. On an assault rifle the propellant gases created that force the round forward are also vented of to recock the weapon, making it semi/fully automatic. This is done by driving the breech block to the rear to rechamber a new round,this causes a redistribution of weight making the weapon move(loss of accuracy). On a bolt action rifle the bolt remains locked until unlocked by the firer, so there is no movement in the rifle. The problem is there is then a lack of firepower but then the sniper should not become involved in a firefight. During WW2 most of the sniper rifles were standard issue rifles with a telescopic sight fitted. Really any weapon could be used by a sniper, it all depends on the firer,a certain rifle does not make you a great shot.
Robbo
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 07:11 PM UTC
PSG-1 is also a Semi, so is the M-21 (variant of M-14). But I do agree that bolt-action is more accurate.
SS-74
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 07:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

DML's sniper set is more toward NAM or DS and includes accurised M14 and some bolt action rifles. To the best of my knowledge US snipers in WW2 were at least early on an ad hoc thing.I dont believe there was a sniper school per say. So I would doubt that there was any special gear aside from some scopes,(probablyoff the shelf).That of course doesn't rule out field modification dy individual troops.MAybe some one could shed light on the US sniper history.

Josh WEingarten
aka shiryon



US sniping effort till the early Vietnam war was ad hoc, the first marine sniping school was established in field in Vietnam. And the rifle of choice range from M1C/D, to Springfield, to Remington M700, etc.

The standard anti-human sniping weapon for the US armed force is USMC : M40, M21, and US. Army : M24, SR-16 ( I think SR-16 is a variant of M-16, but sniper version, I am not sure If I am 100% correct)

matt
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

US sniping effort till the early Vietnam war was ad hoc, the first marine sniping school was established in field in Vietnam. And the rifle of choice range from M1C/D, to Springfield, to Remington M700, etc.

The standard anti-human sniping weapon for the US armed force is USMC : M40, M21, and US. Army : M24, SR-16 ( I think SR-16 is a variant of M-16, but sniper version, I am not sure If I am 100% correct)



It looks like the Sr-16 is a "knock-off" of the M-4 carbine (newer M-16) I've seen Photos of the SR-16 & M-4 (which has a rail system instead of the handle on the reciever.

HTH

Matt
shiryon
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 01:24 AM UTC
Yoda, I think the old Tamiya wepons set 'allied' had either the springfield with scope or a scope to attach to say an M1. If you don't have I look around for one in my junk drawer.

Josh W
Aka shiryon
yellobelli
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Most purpose built sniper rifles now-a-days are still bolt action rifles



In reality, there are several semi-auto weapons being used by law enforcement/military forces today. Sniper Central has a good list of what country is using what weapon http://www.snipercentral.com/worldrifles.htm.

Aside from Sniper Central, Sniper Country http://www.snipercountry.com has some good information/articles, some of which have been written by those practicing the craft. Sniper's Paradise - http://www.snipersparadise.com/index_hq.htm also has some good generalized information.

My experience (No, I am not an operator, just someone who grew up with the concept of the long shop) shows that weapons built on the Remington 700 bolt action seem to be preffered amongst those that are able to choose their own system.

On one of the above sites, I remember reading a couple of entries from a gentleman who was part of a two-man sniper team that was assigned to a Mechanized Infantry unit. He detailed one training exercise where he and his partner were left in a "rear-guard" position to serve firstly as "eyes" for the approaching enemy column. They were also given the secondary task of removing targets of opportunity that were exposed (senior officers riding in open hatches, etc.) His experiences gave me a bunch of interesting modelling ideas.

One final burst of diarhea from the mouth: Someone mentioned that a sniper didn't have access to a "lot of firepower". I'd disagree: In the hands of someone trained to do so, a bolt action rifle (many of which have been modified to accept the M14 mags, it is possible to still to prove oneself as a threat, despite the lack of a semi/full auto weapon. Gordan and Shugart, both posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor, are examples of what a "sniper" weapon (or in today's fru-fru nomenclature a "precision rifle") can do in the hands of a highly trained individual.

Just my two cents. Just my opinion and I may be, probably am, wrong.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:11 AM UTC
For fictionalized information on the life of a sniper, look up Stephen Hunter's Bob Lee Swagger novels or his novel "The Master Sniper". Exciting, fast paced reads.
http://www.stephenhunter.net/books.html
yellobelli
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Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:13 AM UTC
Oh yeah...for those who can afford it/wish to "play" ...

Springfield Armory http://www.springfieldarmory.com is still making/offering the M1A to the civilain market. This is a good weapon, if only you can convince the girl to let you bring another one home.

"But hon...I *NEED* another hunting rifle. This one matches the truck."
 _GOTOTOP