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Recommended book: An Army at Dawn
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 05:02 AM UTC
I am currently reading "An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942-1943" by Rick Atkinson. Atkinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer who was once an editor at the Washington Post and is author of "The Long Gray Line" and "Crusade."

"An Army at Dawn" is the first book in a planned trilogy on U.S. role in the Allied liberation of Europe in WWII. The second book, on the war in Italy, is due out in 2005. The third volume, on Western Europe, is due in 2008.

I'm only about 1/3rd through this book, but it is impressive and enlightening. So much has been written about the Afrika Korps and and British 8th Army, but little seems to be out there about the North Africa landings and battles in Tunisia. Here we see Eisenhower in his first battle command, the beginnings of the Patton myth/legend, Mark Clark involved in secret infiltration and negotiation with the Vichy French.

Wow, it's an eye-opener for me. I knew the landings were a major botch, but never knew the details. (Seems like there should have been more lessons learned here and applied to the D-Day landings.) I also never realized the extent of the Vichy French armed resistance to the invasion.

Excellent read so far, with lots of anecdotes and vignettes. Atkinson covers all the major players, as well as the common GI in the trench or tank. There are also lots of maps and photos (most of which I haven't seen before). Recommended.
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 08:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am currently reading "An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942-1943" by Rick Atkinson. Atkinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer who was once an editor at the Washington Post and is author of "The Long Gray Line" and "Crusade."

"An Army at Dawn" is the first book in a planned trilogy on U.S. role in the Allied liberation of Europe in WWII. The second book, on the war in Italy, is due out in 2005. The third volume, on Western Europe, is due in 2008.

I'm only about 1/3rd through this book, but it is impressive and enlightening. So much has been written about the Afrika Korps and and British 8th Army, but little seems to be out there about the North Africa landings and battles in Tunisia. Here we see Eisenhower in his first battle command, the beginnings of the Patton myth/legend, Mark Clark involved in secret infiltration and negotiation with the Vichy French.

Wow, it's an eye-opener for me. I knew the landings were a major botch, but never knew the details. (Seems like there should have been more lessons learned here and applied to the D-Day landings.) I also never realized the extent of the Vichy French armed resistance to the invasion.

Excellent read so far, with lots of anecdotes and vignettes. Atkinson covers all the major players, as well as the common GI in the trench or tank. There are also lots of maps and photos (most of which I haven't seen before). Recommended.



Bob--thanks for the heads up. I just bought the book through Amazon. It will be next on the list after I complete the latest book on Patton. Did you get that one also? So far, it is plowing through old ground. I have not read anything "startling" in the first fifty pages. I trust this is not another hype drill. Let you know.
DJ
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:45 AM UTC
DJ --

You're more well-read than I am, so I look forward to your opinion. I'm trying not to hype, but this book has captured my attention.

A general observation: often history books start with a lengthy set-up, giving all the background, decribing the major players, military order of battle and political situation. By the time you get to the "meat," the author has bored you to tears. I almost put down "We Were Soldiers Once ... And Young" because of this, but was ultimately glad I stuck it out.

I haven't seen the Patton book you mention -- who wrote it?
210cav
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Posted: Monday, October 28, 2002 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

DJ --

You're more well-read than I am, so I look forward to your opinion. I'm trying not to hype, but this book has captured my attention.

A general observation: often history books start with a lengthy set-up, giving all the background, decribing the major players, military order of battle and political situation. By the time you get to the "meat," the author has bored you to tears. I almost put down "We Were Soldiers Once ... And Young" because of this, but was ultimately glad I stuck it out.

I haven't seen the Patton book you mention -- who wrote it?



Bob--the book is entitled "General patton:A Soldier's Life" by Stanley Hirshson. He is a good writer and you can pretty well fly through the book. Once again, the pre publication hype.about "revelation" concerning Patton has me saying "okay, so what?" In my humble opinion, it is better wroitten so far than D'Este's "Patton : AS Genius for War." However, you got me fired up to try reading both this one and the Atkinson one. Truly, a remarkable book. I like the way he develops the subject matter. His figures on the pre-WW II draftees are insightful. I wonder if we would but mirror them in the future.
DJ
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 10:48 AM UTC
I just purchased "An Army At Dawn" today.
It cost a pretty penny but I am sure it will be worth it.
I was surprised at the age of Rick Atkinson though, he is quite young.

Andrew

Ranger74
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 11:34 AM UTC
I have completed Part One, the landings in Algeria and Morocco and have found the book to be excellent. It has given me another view with some additional info not found in the US Army official history. This especially applies to all the political games of the Vichy Frensh.

Jeff
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Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 05:17 PM UTC
Patton eh?I used to live out at Ft.Hood and right down the street from me was Pattons old home,now sorda a museum.The irony of it all was that my last name is Patton lol.Just thought that would slip in there somewhere;)
210cav
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Posted: Monday, November 11, 2002 - 05:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have completed Part One, the landings in Algeria and Morocco and have found the book to be excellent. It has given me another view with some additional info not found in the US Army official history. This especially applies to all the political games of the Vichy Frensh.

Jeff



Jeff-- I second your observations on this book. I found it highly readable. The placement of diverse subject matter from strategic to tactical level is done smoothly by Atkinson. You can follow the intrigue surrounding the Vichy French and then say to yourself "so what's changed since 1942?" I got mine relatively inexpensively through Amazon. Go to the used book notation once you get the title search done. There is some outfit in New York that sends you a brand new book for several dolars under Amazon and that includes S/H. I thought it was a good deal. Great book.
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 06:24 AM UTC
I basically finished the book yesterday, have just the summary. Boy does this show how many US casualities, not to mention English (Commonwealth) casualties, were caused by poor british operational planning: The three attempts to storm the Morrovan and Algerian ports by coup-d-main operations - costing three US battalions, the frontal attacks by Montgomery at Mareth, and GEN Anderson's completely unimaginative attack for 1st British Army, to which II (US) Corps was attached. But neither does Patton come thru with many honors - He has a long way to go to 3rd Army fame!

There are stories, familiar to those that have read about Operation MARKET-GARDEN, of British armor breaking thru German defenses, then stopping the exploitation to brew some afternoon tea The British Generals, Montgomery, Anderson, Alexander, blasting performance of green US troops, but then nothing is said about similar performance by unblooded British divisions, once at Mareth and twice in 1st Army.

The beginning of the end of British infantry strength was in North Afica - there are numerous examples of the British relying on frontal attacks with minimal artillery support and poor, if any, combined arms attacks. British infantry is smashed continually in Tunisa (don't get mw wrong, British infantry is probably the best conventional infantry in the world, but the British generals did the Tommies no favors) - to include Montgomery's final attacks on the last two days so he can garner some honors in the capture of Tunis, when the 18th Army Group commander had cut him out of the plan.

It is definitely a difficult birthing for the US Army in ETO.

Excellent book with plenty of maps

Disclaimer: If this question was answered in error, or an answer not required/expected/wanted, please notify me and I will delete the post. This post is not intended as an attack on any persons posting prior to or after this post. Please feel free to disregard/disbelieve/discount any information contained in the post. (Thanks Sabot)


#:-)
210cav
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 07:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I basically finished the book yesterday, have just the summary. Boy does this show how many US casualities, not to mention English (Commonwealth) casualties, were caused by poor british operational planning: The three attempts to storm the Morrovan and Algerian ports by coup-d-main operations - costing three US battalions, the frontal attacks by Montgomery at Mareth, and GEN Anderson's completely unimaginative attack for 1st British Army, to which II (US) Corps was attached. But neither does Patton come thru with many honors - He has a long way to go to 3rd Army fame!

There are stories, familiar to those that have read about Operation MARKET-GARDEN, of British armor breaking thru German defenses, then stopping the exploitation to brew some afternoon tea The British Generals, Montgomery, Anderson, Alexander, blasting performance of green US troops, but then nothing is said about similar performance by unblooded British divisions, once at Mareth and twice in 1st Army.

The beginning of the end of British infantry strength was in North Afica - there are numerous examples of the British relying on frontal attacks with minimal artillery support and poor, if any, combined arms attacks. British infantry is smashed continually in Tunisa (don't get mw wrong, British infantry is probably the best conventional infantry in the world, but the British generals did the Tommies no favors) - to include Montgomery's final attacks on the last two days so he can garner some honors in the capture of Tunis, when the 18th Army Group commander had cut him out of the plan.

It is definitely a difficult birthing for the US Army in ETO.

Excellent book with plenty of maps

Disclaimer: If this question was answered in error, or an answer not required/expected/wanted, please notify me and I will delete the post. This post is not intended as an attack on any persons posting prior to or after this post. Please feel free to disregard/disbelieve/discount any information contained in the post. (Thanks Sabot)


#:-)




Jeff--I give up. I thought Rob was goofing with the disclaimer. What gives?
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Monday, November 25, 2002 - 09:41 AM UTC
DJ - Just using it as a joke!
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 04:19 AM UTC
Jeff--I am mid way in the book. He has a superb blend of details that does not reader saying "where'd this come from..." Now, I am also parallel reading Hirschon's Patton. It is proving a very interesting experience. Advertised as some breakthrough book on Patton, Hirschon's has put old wine in a new bottle so far. However, if you are not a Patton reader it is interesting and well written. D'Este had essentially the same type Patton book on the market sometime ago. I also have D'Este's book on Eisenhower to finish.
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:08 AM UTC
DJ - I also have several books on Patton. Several I have at the office are (As I work full-time for the Army Reserve, what better place to have them?):

"The Fighting Pattons", Brian M. Sobel - covers life & times of GSP III and GSP IV, interesting career for post-WW2 Patton.
"The Armies of George S. Patton", George Forty - This book covers Patton's early career, in and out of armor, in and out of cavalry, II Corps ops, 3rd Army ops, then discusses the personalities behind 3rd Army's success: his personal staff, major commanders at corps and division, his army staff, to include personalities and duties (some of this is redundant for those that have served on staffs, but its good to see how it was done in WWII). Also covered is training of soldiers and units, uniforms & equipment, liviing conditions, etc.There is also a Battle history og 3rd Army. More of a primer on the US Army in WWII, using Patton's units as a model.

I also have "War, as I knew It", and the first two volumes of "The Patton Papers" which go up to start of WWII, I need the war years.

A book that should be mandatory reading in every officer basic & advanced course, and then followed in all pre-command courses and in C&GSOC is "Patton's Principles, A Handbook for Managers Who Mean It!" by Porter B. Williamson. LT Willaimson had served as Patton's G-4 (as a LT to be a corps G-4, Hooah!), in I Armored Corps, after which Patton released him to go to flight school. It shows Patton as more of a realist and common-sense thinker than is visible behind all the spit, polish and profanity. I would have to place it in the top five books of actually useful stuff I have ever read - please do not ask me what are the other four - it whould hurt my head too much to figure it out. It is to Sun Tzu's art of war as tactics are to strategy.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:57 AM UTC
Jeff--that's a nice run down. If you get Army magazine, Coleseed has a nice review of the current Patton book. As I said, the book is interesting, but nothing earth shattering. I don't think Rob is kidding with the disclaimer....wonder why he is using it?
Ranger74
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 01:34 PM UTC
Rob must have either violated one of Murphy's Rules of Combat - "Don't be conspicuous, it tends to draw fire" or he is training to be a low-life....uh, I mean a lawyer
210cav
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 05:29 AM UTC
Jeff--I do not believe Rob has sunken to the level of wishing to be a lawyer. If he has, we need to help him regain his sanity. #:-) #:-)
Ranger74
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Posted: Monday, December 02, 2002 - 05:48 AM UTC
We have got to get Rob away form school at Ft. Lee, he is too close to teh Pentagon , and back to the Taxachussetts
210cav
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Posted: Monday, December 02, 2002 - 06:05 AM UTC
Jeff--for whatever reason, he dropped it...thank goodness.