People

I am chasing a bit of feedback or some ideas.

We had our local annual model competition last weekend and will be having a bit of a debrief this weekend.

We have always had 2 categories - out of the box and modified. OOB was just that - with an allowance for stretched sprue or fishing line for antennas.

Modified covered additional scratchbuilding, resin detail sets and PE.

The question is this - with the plethora of kits now coming out from Dragon, Trumpeter, Roden and even Mr T that include PE and even turned metal barrels already included, which category do they belong to?

Taking Tamiya as an example someone could build a 5 yr old Panzer IV J out of the box while another could build the recently released version with PE and would seemingly have an unfair "advantage" in an OOB category.

While this "problem" didn't occur this comp it could well arrive at the next - seeing I am building the Trumpeter 1/16 T-34/76 - and I m aware other are working on similar kits.

Have any of you struck this at competitions you have attended and if so what rulings were made?

I used to have the IPMS and AMPS rules in my favourites but they seem to have been misplaced - like my memory :-)

Any feedback or thoughts will be passed on at our meeting.

Thanks

Brian

Bilko -

Interesting topic/question and I agree that it will probably come up again. There was some questions along these lines in the recently completed "AGE 2" campaign. It was decided that if the kit in question had the metal barrel, PE, etc in the kit, it was still considered an OOB build. This was fine, but I do agree that it could give an advantage over the "strictly" OOB older kits. I'd recommend that there be 3 categories; maybe "Stock" for the older, no extras kits, and "like a "Super Stock" for those with the indi tracks, barrel, PE, etc. and then an "open" for everything you want. Just my thoughts,

Blade48mrd

Ahoy Brian!

I undersatnd your feelings, but you have to consider them OOB (the latest kind of Upgraded-models).

But I still think that a "good old" OOB model can compete and win over this latest state-of-the-art-full-upgraded-models... Why?
Because the things that are going to be evaluated for competition apply equaly to both - being the last kind more suitable to have mistakes

Just my 2 cents!

Skipper

Brian
We have OOB in about every category we have at our local contest. One of the things we insist on is the kit instrcutions with the finished model. And we have encountered what we call generation 2 kits. The instructions help us to determine the degree of difficulty and exactly how much work the modeler had to put into his kit. Most times the older kits win out over the new generation kits, as the modeler has gone the extra step to finish it. Not depending on glitzh to win.
Jerry

I think if the builder can supply an inventory list or set of instructions detailing that PE and turned barrels were in the box then by all means that specific set of PE and turned barrels should be considered OOTB

That's normally a requirement to having your entry judged as an OOB model. The kit instructions should be displayed with the entry form.

I agree that the latest trend raises the bar on OOB models. I agree that it is the model skill that is taken into consideratiopn first. But, if two modelers with similar talents build the new Dragon Flak 88mm and the old Tamiya Flak 88mm, unless the Dragon builder really messed something up, his kit will look better than the Tamiya builder's kit.

Interesting discussion.

As the rules are generaly and currently written, the latest generation of kits with PE, aluminum barrels, etc, built only from parts supplied in the original box have to be considered oob.

Should the trend continue, the inclusion of super stock, as someone suggested, might be appropriate.

Conversely, there was discussion recetly at IPMS/USA's forum of the continued need for OOB as a separate award. At my club's recent contest, most of the OOB winners also palced inthe top three, validating the question of whether there is still a need for this sub-division.

As always, when you attend a contest, read the rules. the local event generally sets these based on their experince.

I see the problem but I don't know what to solution would be. There really isn't much one can do if there is a superior kit OOTB and it is done according to instructions unless there is a subcategory OOTB plastics and OOTB plastics plus PE. However would that bump my Italeri Marine Sherman into the plastic/PE simply because I have two little screens in the wading trunks?

I like the "super stock" idea. I think the original intent of OOB was aimed at the novice to intermediate modeler who was either not aware of aftermarket items or lacked the skills or funds to use AM items.

The so-called "super stock" kits are aimed at an experienced modeler. Allowing the "SS" kit to be judged as OOB is technically correct, but does not follow the intent of the original OOB award.

If a "Super Stock" category was created, I think your Sherman with two small PE screens would fall into that category. In another example, I have a Revell of Germany NBC recon Fuchs armored car. Inside the box is a long slender wire for the antenna. That could potentially fall into the "SS" category since it is not plastic. You could stretch sprue to use in lieu of the wire and be OK though.

Very interesting, I beleive that OOTB means just that. Thus "Super Stock" is OOTB. If you choose to enter a contest for fun, what's it matter if you use the upgraded in teh box Pz IV J or the non upgraded version. If you enter to win, then I would think that it behooves you to get the Super stock version, but be prepared to do what it takes to make it great.

Could a non-ss beat a ss kit, sure, why not, all depends on the skill of the builder, but with all things being equal, the advantage goes to the ss kit.

The same applies to tennis, golf, etc, if you are playing for fun, really doesn't matter what equiptment you use, if you play to win, then the best never hurts.

Just my $0.02

Personally I would not have the Super Stock category. I think that the higher bar may actually benefit all model builders because an older kit will no longer be able to compete. That will mean more demand for super stock kits. The greater the demand the more people willing to produce kits. With more people producing super stock kits there will be competition on price. Soon everyone will be making super stock kits at a reasonable price.

Careful kit selection was always important when entering for an OOB award. Having been around a long time.... read that as really an old gezzer, OH the shock of Fujimi, and Hasagawa including photo-etch in their aircraft kits 20 years ago.... and the "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE" it gave those "cads" that entered them in a contest. How dare they show bi-plane rigging..... !!!
OOB still comes down to the proper assembly, and finishing of a basic kit, using what comes in the box, or as instructed by the instructions/boxtop. All these newer high ticket kits/super detailed including the kitchen sink in the box kits do, is give judges more stuff to look over more carefully. That old not familar with the kit holds no water since OOB requires the instructions to be displayed with the model.
The picking of the kit, and the skill/talent of the modeller are what's important. There are some manufactures, and kits I would never consider entering as an Out Of the Box for a contest.
Does it really give a modeller an unfair advantage.... ??
Not with proper judging..... one glue smear, misalignment of parts, silvered decals on the super duper kit, against one with out the bells and whistles, older, more affordable kit but one that has no flaws..... or less flaws/problems.

Unfortunately far to many "Judges" get caught up in the bells and whistles, and so called "wow factor" that they seem to miss these flaws sometimes. And I'm not even talking about the nuts, bolts or rivet counting.
WOW.... did you see that great F-14 over there.... amazing....
too bad the canopy looks like it was painted by a different modeller, and the plyons are on backwards.
Hey did you see that Panzersloppenwaffernab 1147 over there, that the one with the photo etch, turned barrel, and three cheerleaders/ and CD of "ata boy" in the box.......
Sure I saw it Mate..... did you see the silvered decal? the machine gun upside down, and the tracks backwards? Not to mention the figure could stand in for Marty Felman!!!!

Off topic/Whos is Marty Felman? Did he play Igor in Young Frankenstein?/Offtopic

Well... I have to "enter again"!

David (GrumpyOldFriend!!!) is just making emphasys on what I said before:
- OOB means that "what it really matters is the skill of the modeler"
If you're going to make a winner in OOB, it must be flawless! No ejector marks, seems, glue spots, silvering or bad decals, misalignment of parts, painting .. and so on and so on!
If the model should happen to have PE, indi links, brass parts or alu barrels, these are just more parts and pieces that you have to worry about, since the Judges will take extra work to see if any flaws are visible.. And believe me, Judges (I am one ) at a given point have to start picking on the smallest flaws to arrive to the winner!

"Keep it simple" usually works!
And a show stopper doesn't need to be BIG! It can be a 1/72 AFV!!

Possibly adding the category :
OOB: Just a standard kit
OOB Multi media kit: New series kits with Brass, White metal and resin.
OOB Enhanced: A kit to which the minimal addition of multi-media products has been used.

Well, for my $.02 cents in the matter:

I think the newer multi-media kits qualify for OOB consideration as they come - but I think OOB itself should likely go away because it causes too much confusion.

I speak from a very long time judging from the local all the way to being the Contest Director at an IPMS/USA National Convention. I've heard droves of curious commentary from judges over the years that leads me to feel that OOB or any other modeling category put up for judging isn't really about the "skill of the modeler" - it's about the "skill of the judges".

I continually hear about the merits and original intent of the OOB Class - but also hear how it is used as a foil against Advanced and "Master" level modelers. If one perceives a highly-skilled modeler entering such class, the tag "trophy hound" comes quickly. I have heard judges carping about this vehemently, to the degree of personal attacks. It is very sad and really hurts that part of the hobby - and is a reverse form of discrimination against the perception of "elite" and "master-class".

I've also witnessed the flip-side where OOB is used as a handicap to not developing and honing modeling techniques - and reward mediocrity. That last sentence might raise the hackles of some - but it is also what I've heard and seen.

In my opinion, if model competitions were really all about judging the skill of the modeler, and the judges were equally up to the task - then there would be no need for classes at all. The problem isn't the class - it's the judging of the class. I still read absolutely inane comments like, "wow - see all the colors of plastic and brass on that model! He really did the work and that makes it great..." on display models as well as finished models. "I couldn't see a thing extra he did on that model..." oblivious that the model displayed in front of them isn't available commercially and the modeler scratchbuilt or kitbashed the heck out of it to get it there. It just goes on and on and on.

What I feel OOB is, is more of a Novice Class - allowing and encouraging entry-level modelers to be evaluated against each other. If you're skilled enough to win consistently - you are not a Novice model builder. One nice model does not make you a great modeler - many think contrary - but what I'm saying is that you know whether or not you're skilled enough to compete in a open category with other modelers. No panel of judges or contest officials needs to tell you that.

If I had my druthers, I'd turn the OOB concept into a recruiting tool. Setup the after-contest judges panel specifically for the OOB Class as a way to share techniques and crtiique of results. I'd stop labeling it "OOB" because it confuses those who use aftermarket parts as an aid to compete with those who just want to build the model they just bought for fun.

I wish a model contest was really all about judging the skill of the modeler...

Gunnie

OOB should mean OOB. If you build the 1975 Tamiya Tiger 1 or the new 3 in 1 Dragon Tiger 1. JUdges are judging modeling skills according to the charge given them. Having been a judge that is what I alway strived for. The IPMS has its contest rules . Maybe the creation of more categories will alleviate rather than confuse the issue

For some 13 or 14 years, the local air museum co-sponsored an OOB contest with us. They provided space and trophies and we did the judging. The people who won there were typically the people who won in the open contests.
At this year's Valleycon 15, there were 16 OOB awards given out (Not all calsses with an OOB had one represented). 6 of those took a place award as well and 2 took first in class. There were 10 discreet builders represented. I know at least half of them as previous winners at various levels at various contests. The other 5 names may have been newcomers, or simply people whose names I don't immediately recognize.

:-) :-) :-) Yes John..... he was I-gor..... :-) :-) :-)
He suffered from a condition called walleyes, the opposite of crosseyed. Not sure if I spelt his name correctly, but he was a rather funny comic, from my youthful days.




Jim I agree, and I have always favored the open judging system, over the class system.

I don't ever enter anything I build in contests (if you've seen my stuff, you know why :-) )

But, I have to ask myself,

Somebody went to the trouble to create a category called "out of the box".

Why? What was the "intent" behind creating such a category in the first place? And implied with the designation OOB, is the understanding that there is something "other than" OOB.

What did THAT mean at the time the designation was created?

While it is certainly correct that if something was in the box when you bought it, then if you use it, your kit is "OOB".

But lets go back to the intent.

It seems to me that what MAY have been intended was to differentiate between kits which, at the time, consisted of the plastic in the box, and kits to which the modeler applied items the manufacturer did NOT include, for the purpose of "improving" the build, either in accuracy or appearance. Items, many of which are quite a bit more difficult to work with.

Clearly the "same" kit with and without aftermarket or scratch built items can not be judged "equally".

With that in mind, it would seem to me that a "different" set of criteria or a "new" category might be appropriate.

Since there are "simple" kits ("old style") and "enhanced" kits (those that now include items which were formerly aftermarket) it would seem tp make more sense to create a separate category.

To put both types of kits in the "same" OOB category seems to me like removing the "degree of difficulty" which is assigned to events in sports like diving and gymnastics.

What is the comparison of a "10.0" in a simple action with an "8.0" in a much more difficult one?

Would a "snap together" kit have a chance in an OOB build category?

Tom

Since I don't enter too many model contests I didn't have anything pertinent to add to the main discussion. I had to throw this out though, it's Marty Feldman, not Felman.

Dr Frankenstein "Ware wolf"
Igor "There wolf, there castle"

Igor , mimicking Groucho Marx, "You take the blond, and I'll take the one in the turban."

Dr Frankenstein "Whose brain did I put in?"
Igor "Abby something"
Dr Frankenstein "Abby?"
Igor "Abby normal"

Dr Frankenstein "what a filthy job!"
Igor "oh, could be worse, could be raining."
It starts to pour rain
Dr Frankenstein "Damn your eyes!"
Igor, pointing at his bad eyes, "too late"


Great Movie

My nickle...... 2 catagories

1) OOB/All Plastic
2) Multi-media/Everything Goes

Chief

Thanks Rodger..... :-) :-) :-)

Here is my .02 cents.

OOB-Styrene only

OOB-Multi-media

If it came with the kit, it is OOB. Plain and simple.

Otherwise, if you add any aftermarket items that were not included in the kit, doesn't matter how many, you no longer qualify for OOB consideration.

I think keeping OOB catagories are important to encourage novice builders to compete. That catagory is what encouraged me to begin competing.