Adding extra categories is fine...except every trophy adds another $8-10 to the cost of running a show. And classes with no OOB entries leaves the organizer eating that money, unless the trophies are extremely generic.
Using our most recent contest as an example again, we had 21 categories with OOB awards, 16 of these had entries by 10 builders and at least half of those are well experienced and successful builders, with one guy taking four of the car classes and another guy taking two if the aircraft classes.
While it may have at one time been intended for novices, it is not they who are taking the bulk of the awards. It's the seasoned builders who re taking the bulk of the awards. Having been around this hobby and the organization of contests for more than 20 years, most of th etime, OOB was justified as being an award for guys who didn't (couldn't) add a lot of extra detail, which, in the day, meant scratchbuilding details or adding vacu-formed or white metal conversion parts before the days of resin conversions and PE detail sets.
Perhaps it's time to scrap OOB and add a novice award in their places.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Your thoughts on OOB competition rules
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 12:12 PM UTC
capnjock
Member Since: May 19, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 03:45 PM UTC
I agree with scrapping OOTB and substituting novice classes. I personally put all my stuff in open classes anyway, even if the model could be considered OOTB. I also think there are too many classes anyway. Open rules are the way to go.
capnjock
capnjock
barv
Member Since: December 24, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:12 PM UTC
I remember standing out side the Scottish National's Show, the other week ,with a few guys from other clubs ,and the "OOB" subject was broached ......the out -come was not conclusive.......but the feeling was that it isa fair category.......if it is "OOB"
An agreement was reached , by those in discussion, that the title is misleading as it is not true.....the "glue" and "paint" are not normally in the box so ..............??????
Who is the politically correct "twit" who is going to enforce this rulling....and there are a few more "mines" in the mine-field of competition.................who can tell what is "after -market" or inthe box ...when it has been painted .... will all judges to have "-kit instruction crib -sheets" for all kits submitted------------NUTS !!!!!!!!
....aye
BARV MODELLING IS FOR ENJOYMENT --------NOT FOR RIVET COUNTERS
ps........I was asked to judge at show ..when I asked why (views known on R-COUNTERS ) was told "that was a good enough reason".......?
MikeMummey
Member Since: February 09, 2005
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Posted: Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:58 AM UTC
Howdy Brian. I see being out of the box as just that. You can still poorly build a "super' kit. No matter how many cool do-dads come in the box. Hopefully the judges have enough knowledge of what comes in the box. That is why the insrtructions are provided alongside the entry to be eligible for OOB. Out here. 
barv
Member Since: December 24, 2004
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Posted: Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:39 AM UTC
,SEE above.........case of judges at SMW last year ......guys judging sections they have never modelled in?????????
OOB is where we all came from.......well I did -(plasic packets ,before boxes)...and thats where our "junior modellers" have to start.
Who makes the rules any way......like most things these days the "wee few"?....justification of position?......lets "can" this nonsense (classes) and get back to pure modelling .......in the box ..out of the box....who cares (pot -hunters)----not me ----if it looks the part and the person who built it likes it ..GOOD -OH !..and well done.
aye
BARV 
SORRY if I have offended any -one MODELLING IS FOR ENJOYMENT --NOT FOR RIVET-COUNTERS
MikeMummey
Member Since: February 09, 2005
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Posted: Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:27 PM UTC
Steve, what is SMW? To me the best thing about scale model competition is that it is not mandatory. You do not have to participate if you do not want to. It is not required for the"Successful Life"merit badge. Modeling is for enjoyment, right.? Well for some so is rivet counting. I am with the former but see the perspective of the latter. Otherwise we would be entering all of our stuff in the fantasy catagory. Out here.
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:56 PM UTC
Ohh well, I'll just jump in and bore you with my opinion.
If judging my effort takes this much disscusion before we even start to look at my model, no thanks..
I don't enter competitions, for all those reasons already stated. I build for fun, for enjoyment, for other people to enjoy. If you get hung up on ' the rear rivet on the left turret doodaa is not the right size and therefor your model is crap' you can jump in a puddle.
If I like it it's nice, if you like it it's good, if my occasional clients like it it's even better. Personnaly I take more gratification from the opinion from someone who paid for my model, rather than somebody who I have not seen any work of....
OOB means Out Of Box. Simple. with the latest dragon kits probably not right, but that's what it means.
The term After Market might need to be redefined if Dragon carries on, as AM might well become standard issue in all (most) kits. But then isn't evolution what it's all about?
Cheers
Henk
If judging my effort takes this much disscusion before we even start to look at my model, no thanks..
I don't enter competitions, for all those reasons already stated. I build for fun, for enjoyment, for other people to enjoy. If you get hung up on ' the rear rivet on the left turret doodaa is not the right size and therefor your model is crap' you can jump in a puddle.
If I like it it's nice, if you like it it's good, if my occasional clients like it it's even better. Personnaly I take more gratification from the opinion from someone who paid for my model, rather than somebody who I have not seen any work of....OOB means Out Of Box. Simple. with the latest dragon kits probably not right, but that's what it means.
The term After Market might need to be redefined if Dragon carries on, as AM might well become standard issue in all (most) kits. But then isn't evolution what it's all about?
Cheers
Henk
MikeMummey
Member Since: February 09, 2005
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Posted: Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:11 PM UTC
Well Henk, I do not consider myself a good enough builder to be a model whore yet. But I can dream. I still do it for self gratification. Who knows, maybe in the future. But if it comes in the box it is still an OOB model. Out here.
bilko
Member Since: April 22, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:17 AM UTC
Guys
Thank you very much for your thoughts - I certainly don't disagree with anyone's point of view.
I will take them to the meeting tomorrow in case nothing similar is raised so that we can have a fuller discussion ......... and hopefully arrive at a decision.
For your interest if we reach some decision I will pass it on.
Again Thanks
Brian
MikeMummey
Member Since: February 09, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:18 AM UTC
Hey Brian,, "tanks" for bringing the OOB subject up. There are many interesting resoponses. I would like to hear your groups decision as my club has been throwing the subject around too. Out here.
bilko
Member Since: April 22, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:46 AM UTC
Well after a bit of tooing and froing this afternoon we have decided to try an experiment for the next comp and see what sort of feedback we get.
We have decided that there will be no OOB and modified classes within each category. All categories will be open to whatever is entered - whether just plastic or with scratchbuilding, resin, PE etc.
What we will do in order to keep the number of prizes up is to have additional categories. So instead of military vehicles OOB and modified it will now be military vehicles - armoured and Military vehicles - softskins for example.
The general consensus was that the judges should be looking at the final model not the start of the model - if that makes sense.
Again thanks for the feedback, my fellow club members were impressed with the responses from this site.
Brian
AJLaFleche
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:14 PM UTC
To add to this discussion, the best of show at the region 1 convention/contest, Noreastcon, held yesterday in Rochester NY, was an oob Accurate Miniatures TBM Avenger in an Atlantic scheme. It bested an essentially scratchbuilt (beautifully so) 15 cwt Chevy by one vote.
They had oob for each major area and there was very little enterred in any.
They had oob for each major area and there was very little enterred in any.
Recon
Member Since: October 19, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:07 PM UTC
OOB means just what is in the box, with the exception of decals. What is so hard to understand. If you start adding or allowing more than that it is not OOB.
Recon
Recon
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:10 PM UTC
Remember it's a hobby... hobbies are for fun.
Ohh, and another reason I wouldn't like to enter a model in a competition.. As I build and painted it, I know about at least one thing (possibly more :-)) that's not quite right/ covered up...I would feel far to uncomfortable during judging... like doing my driving test again.. 
. I don't really need that..
Cheers
Henk
Ohh, and another reason I wouldn't like to enter a model in a competition.. As I build and painted it, I know about at least one thing (possibly more
:-)) that's not quite right/ covered up...I would feel far to uncomfortable during judging... like doing my driving test again.. . I don't really need that..Cheers
Henk
jRatz
Member Since: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 12:52 PM UTC
Brian:
I'm just kinda waxing philosophic here, but ...
You have made a very good comment: "The general consensus was that the judges should be looking at the final model not the start of the model - if that makes sense." and I would tend to agree on several levels.
OTOH, let's assume a two-person head-head contest. One guy does a Tamiya P-47 OOB while another takes the old Monogram one & whacks & hacks & adds to create an identical model to the OOB one -- ie, both models are indistinguishable. Shouldn't the tie go to the guy that did more work -- ie, there has to be some recognition of what they started with.
I myself am torn on OOB, and probably would vote to eliminate it (even IPMS OOB is not OOB 'cause of the things allowed). I favor the AMPS skill levels -- you enter a Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Master & there is also a Junior category.
John
I'm just kinda waxing philosophic here, but ...
You have made a very good comment: "The general consensus was that the judges should be looking at the final model not the start of the model - if that makes sense." and I would tend to agree on several levels.
OTOH, let's assume a two-person head-head contest. One guy does a Tamiya P-47 OOB while another takes the old Monogram one & whacks & hacks & adds to create an identical model to the OOB one -- ie, both models are indistinguishable. Shouldn't the tie go to the guy that did more work -- ie, there has to be some recognition of what they started with.
I myself am torn on OOB, and probably would vote to eliminate it (even IPMS OOB is not OOB 'cause of the things allowed). I favor the AMPS skill levels -- you enter a Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Master & there is also a Junior category.
John
zoomie50
Member Since: March 20, 2005
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 06:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
OOB is where we all came from.......well I did -(plasic packets ,before boxes)...and thats where our "junior modellers" have to start.
......lets "can" this nonsense (classes) and get back to pure modelling .......in the box ..out of the box....who cares (pot -hunters)----not me ----if it looks the part and the person who built it likes it ..GOOD -OH !..and well done.
aye
MODELLING IS FOR ENJOYMENT --NOT FOR RIVET-COUNTERS
Steve
I couldn't agree more.I build for me, for enjoyment. We have OOB in every contest I go to. It was meant for the novices in the beginning, but now it has become a haven for trophy mongers.
That's why I like the capaigns here. it doesn't matter your skill level. You build, you finish, you get a ribbon. SIMPLE.
Sorry.
I like the idea of a " novice " category instead of an " OOB ". I think putting a novice class will eliminate the controversay over a plastic only kit as opposed to one with extras in OOB.
What all of you and myself have voiced here we have , at our club , talked about more than once. And with no results.But it does give me ammunition to take to our next club meeting.
Jerry
Tarok
Member Since: July 28, 2004
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 07:26 PM UTC
What would a day be without me throwing in my ignorant 2 cents worth or trying to fit both feet in my mouth... :-) :-) :-)
So here goes...
My interpretation of OOB is everything within the orginal model kit box... if that includes metal bits, PE, or resin bits... hey, great!
If not... so what??
At the end of the day, it's final product, the fully assembled and finished model that is judged... a great DML kit with all the cool sparkly bits can look crud if not done properly, just a re-re-re-re-released 30 year old Tamiya
kit can look like a masterpiece if done well.
Basically what I'm saying is at the end of the day it lies within the modeller to produce the end product... a magic lies within, not without...
So here goes...
My interpretation of OOB is everything within the orginal model kit box... if that includes metal bits, PE, or resin bits... hey, great!
If not... so what?? At the end of the day, it's final product, the fully assembled and finished model that is judged... a great DML kit with all the cool sparkly bits can look crud if not done properly, just a re-re-re-re-released 30 year old Tamiya
kit can look like a masterpiece if done well. Basically what I'm saying is at the end of the day it lies within the modeller to produce the end product... a magic lies within, not without...
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My interpretation of OOB is everything within the orginal model kit box... if that includes metal bits, PE, or resin bits... hey, great! If not... so what??
Would that mean that to qualify for a trophy, you would have to glue the kit together using only the small tube of cement provided ?
Tarok
Member Since: July 28, 2004
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextMy interpretation of OOB is everything within the orginal model kit box... if that includes metal bits, PE, or resin bits... hey, great! If not... so what??
Would that mean that to qualify for a trophy, you would have to glue the kit together using only the small tube of cement provided ?
Yes, and in the case of those "beginner kits"(eg Airfix, Revell), you have to use the paints provided!
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, and in the case of those "beginner kits"(eg Airfix, Revell), you have to use the paints provided!
And the 'brush'....
Sabot
Member Since: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It is not hard to understand, as it stands now, OOB is OOB regardless of what the manufacturer includes inside the box. Manufacturers are just changing what was normally included "in the box". Items traditionally associated as aftermarket like aluminum barrels, photo etched frets and individual track links are now being included by the manufacturer.OOB means just what is in the box, with the exception of decals. What is so hard to understand. If you start adding or allowing more than that it is not OOB.
Recon
The question being discussed is whether or not the definition of OOB needs to be redefined or eliminated.
I still think modeling skills are the most important factor, but someone building the new Dragon 3 in 1 Tiger has a distinct advantage over someone building the original Tamiya Tiger straight OOB.
BTW, my only first place award was for an ancient Airfix VW Beetle that also won best OOB in a car category.
barv
Member Since: December 24, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 02:09 AM UTC
,Hi, guys,
This question will never fully be resolved.......because the kits are being "hyped" with all the"nice" bits (and seem likely to do so for a while)..it therefore must result in either ..ALL the "competition secretaries "will have to get together to agree on "classifications
aye
BARV 
DRAGONWAGON
Member Since: February 05, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 05:44 PM UTC
Hi Gang,
I think this is quite simple.....I go to my LHS and buy a kit. Everything included in this kit is OOB....!!
Any addition of AM-stuff, makes it no longer OOB...!!
I'm a simple guy...John.
I think this is quite simple.....I go to my LHS and buy a kit. Everything included in this kit is OOB....!!
Any addition of AM-stuff, makes it no longer OOB...!!
I'm a simple guy...John.
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