I was watching the news about the election of the new Pope, and one of the leading candidates appears to be the German Cardinal (Razinger) sp? . Apparantly, he was also a member of the Hitler Youth and was drafted into the German army. This prompted me to th ink about others who fought with the Nazis in WWII. Call me forgiving, but I think some of them should be excused for fighting under the swastika for several reasons:

1) they were not fully aware of what the Nazis actually stood for

2) they were desperate to achieve their own political goals, such as freedom from communism, and thought their lot may be a little better by siding with Hitler rather than siding with Stalin.

3) they were conscripted into the German army and thus had no choice

Cardinal R. may have been too young, in my opinion, to really appreciate what the Hitler Youth really was. And besides, wasn't one of the objectives of the HY to indoctrinate young people to Nazism before they learned to think for themselves?

Another example would have been the father of the former chairman of the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff, General (Sh....). I can't remember or spell his name, but I believe he was Ukranian. Didn't a lot of Ukranian and other nationalities in the Soviet Union side with the Nazis because it offered a glimmer of hope for independence?

Finally, I was a little surprised to learn that the symbol on Finnish armor and aircraft during WWII was a blue swastika. Although they allied themselves with the Germans in WWII, I find it hard to think of Finland as being a pro-Nazi state.

Chuckster, this is a extremely sensative subject here on armorama. As I found out the hard way.

Point 1: The Hitler Jugend were children. The guy was born in 1927. In 1939 he was 12 at very end of war 18. Don't think he ws part of political system.

Point 2: The Fins were NOT a Nazi state. They merely fought against their traditional foe...the Soviets, who invaded them

Finnish swastika is called hakarista and was symbol of their army just after WWI. So it has nothing in common with nazis.

Piotr

A swastika doesnt automatically mean a nazi,

The swastika is an ancient symbol (usually meaning peace) that has been used by various groups and countries for centuries. It was unfortunately hijacked by Hitler and his vile regime for their evil purposes.

While the cardinal you mentioned was probably too young to realise the true ideals of the Hitler youth, a good proportion within the HY had been indoctrinated with the nazi ideals almost to zealous levels. The same goes for the SS-hence the atrocities against civilians/POWs etc

Having said that many of those serving as part of the German armed forces did not think the same, particularly in the Wehrmacht.

We had a family friend (passed away a few years ago) who was Croatian. He was consripted into the German army after the fall of his country, and he was sent to fight in north africa. He was all too willing to surrender to the first British troops he saw, as were most of his conscripted unit.

regards

joe

No problems yet guys, but can we just be a little careful with this VERY interesting thread? Thanks, Jim

Well, at the risk of getting my head bitten off, here's my 2 penn'orth.
There were several nationalities who joined the Nazis supposedly for "higher" reasons. Examples are the French, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian & other Western European volunteers, who felt they were fighting against Bolshevism, to keep Europe "free" of Soviet influence. Presumably these people regarded Nazi Germany as a lesser evil, though one has to question their motives when they volunteered AFTER their countries had been invaded. Were they all dupes? One of the most notorious, Leon Degrelle, had been a right-wing politician before the war. He fled to Spain after it, & wore full SS uniform to his daughters wedding in the '70s! How do we explain the "adventurers" who joined out of boredom or a thirst for adventure - presumably they got more than they bargained for!
There were also instances of Nationalist organisations, who espoused Nazi beliefs in each of those countries, eg Quisling, the Milice.
We are on even dodgier ground with Eastern Europe. Yes there may have been people who joined the Nazis with the ideal of an independent homeland. If so they were soon diabused of this by Nazi Eastern policy. How do these ideas sit alongside the unsavoury reputation of 14th SS Division "Ukraine"? Also many of the guards @ Auschwitz were Ukrainians. Nor were the Poles immune from anti-Jewish feeling, despite suffering from Nazi aggression & persecution themselves.
As for the German themselves, well although Hitler was never actually voted in by a majority, any opposition in Germany was pretty much ineffective. The Army, as the most powerful institution, consistently failed, despite numerous opportunities pre-war, to curb Hitler & the Nazis. Yes there were many who didn't agree with all Hitlers policies (especially the anti-Semitism), but they allowed themselves to be seduced by his early diplomatic successes, & later his early easy military victories. When the tide turned, these same people were cowed by the regime, while being frightened of the likey outcome, but isn't this also partly self-preservation instinct? Hitler & the Nazis appealed to all the negative, nihilistic human traits - pride, greed, envy etc. Once in power, their rule was absolute, but it also inefficient, divisive & chaotic - the rule of gangsterism. While it was hard for individuals to make a difference, as it is in any modern state, Germany in the 40's never produced a convincing opposition to Nazism.

As an adjunct to my previous comments, I'm sure there were also many people "shanghaied" into German uniform with no real understanding of why they were there, eg the Russian "Hiwis", who were regarded by their employers as labourers who were useful but utterly disposable.
The Hitler Youth were of course brought up to be Nazis in their outlook. The HJ Division fought with complete fanaticsm in Normandy. Contemporary Allied accounts refer to them as "nasty young beasts" & other derogatory terms, while admitting their fighting skills. Of course not all German youth was similarly affected, one can consider for example the Jazz "Pirates" or the "White Rose", but they were in a minority. Nazism projected itself as a fresh, new, young movement.
There were , of course, many more mature (in years & outlook) soldiers in the Wehrmacht who were fighting simply for their country, as in other armies.

The leader of the Britisches Freikorps, Richard Emery (?), was the son of a prominent politician. He was hanged as a traitor. Several of the members claimed to have been ordered to join by their superiors, in order to infiltrate the unit & discover how strong it was & what it's likely function would be. Total strength is usualyy given as about 60 all ranks. 10 or 11 men served with 11th SS Division Nordland for a while in 1945, but saw little or no action. The unit was never considered combat worthy.
There was also a "George Washington Legion" of about a dozen Americans. Both these units were of propoganda use only to Nazi Germany.

Sorry that should be Amery I think.

Too many people are quick to label anything WW2 era German as "NAZI". As a modeler, I put a couple of pictures of my work (a Tiger tank and a Panther) on my desk. One of the managers came by and took it down calling it a Nazi tank and that it could be offensive. OK, he wins but I did point out that the Nazi's were political party and that most of the Wehrmacht was just soldiers as Hohenstaufen says fighting for their country. BTW I think he wrote an excellent treatise on foreigners in the German Service. Too many blame the entire holocaust on the Germans totally unaware that more often than not the Jewish people were eagerly handed over to the Germans. Denmarck, Holland, and Italy are about the only ones that come to mind that actually tried to resist the German round-ups.

Steve, I don't want this to go into the Holocaust particularly, but as the architects, instigators and facilitators of the Holocaust were Germans primarily, this should be taken into account as well. The subject of collaboration is a fascinating one.

One SS unit which wasn't mentioned was the Indian SS. Nor was Handschar (Muslim)...Jim just bet I spelt hat one wrong

Here are my only somewhat educated two cents worth on this.

A person's motives can always be suspect. If somebody is drafted into the armed forces they hardly have any choice in the matter. The Nazis drafted huge numbers of people from all over Europe. What they did once they got into the armed forces though should count for or against them. If somebody is drafted then turns into a sadistic concentration camp guard they should certainly be held accountable.

As you say some people did join because they thought they were fighting communism. Others though joined because they wanted to wear a fancy uniform, lord it over others, or thought the Germans were going to win and wanted to be on the winning side. Hardly laudable reasons.

As far as the Cardinal who may be Pope I have mixed feelings. The fact that he was once a member of the Hitler Youth sounds to me like the kind of political issue that is raised whenever somebody becomes prominent. It hasn't seemed to be an issue up to now. I would like more information on how he came to join the HL before passing judgment. The fact he was drafted into the armed forces, as opposed to volunteering for something like the SS, should weigh in his favor.


EDIT: I now see that the Pope has been elected. Cardinal Ratzinger is indeed the next Pope, Pope Benedict XVI.

There are some things to be taken into consideration:

first, a lot of the saints that the catholic church knows were soldiers, or even criminals, who repented, turned christian, worked a miracle or 2, and then became holy men.

Second, let's give pope Benedict XVI the benefit of the doubt. He specifically chose the name Benedict, to succeed Benedict the XVth, who was pope during WW1, and who was a pacifist; rather than, say, Pious XIII, who was pope during ww2, and gave his blessing to the holocaust.

3rd, indeed, a lot of people, from allmost every country, chose to join either the allies, or the nazis... Poles and Czechs joined the british army, while Danes, Frenchmen, Belgians and Dutch would join the SS.

4th.. as a kid, you didn't probably had a choice.. if your parents put you into the scouting, or the Hitlerjugend, you had to go!!!!!.

This is a good example of joining the nazi's for a 'higher' cause- namely Indian nationalism. I only recently found out about this group, via the BBC website, where a documentary can be downloaded
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document2004_indians_comments.shtml

Apparently they were deployed at Royan on the west coast of France.
It's a fascinating subject, but I think that it must not be overlooked that soldiers in any army are used by their government, whatever the individual soldiers beliefs. How many of those British troops packed off to the Falklands voted for Thatcher?
MC

Amery Is correct.

Thomas Mellor Cooper joined the SS in 1938 and fought as a member of Das Reich. It is noted that he was the only Enlighmen to be awarded a "Nazi" combat award.

I feel you have argued this case superbly. Seldom are the motives that drive human actions ever black and white. Participation in the Nazi agenda was no exception. Call it fear, opportunism, or even apathy, there were a number of factors that prevailed throughout the world that fed their success.

Well done indeed.

I have Finnish cousins who fought with the Germans. The Finns kicked the living heck out of the Soviet Union in the Winter War (1939 - 1940), but lost the southern Karelian Isthmus when they had to sue for peace. The Continuation War (1941-1944) began with an attack on Finland by the USSR. In 1944 fighting intensified, causing Finalnd to form an alliance with Germany. Finland's goal was to survive as a nation.
As the saying goes politics (and war) makes strange bedfellows.

Very interesting thread we've got here, I'd like to get more information about this Indian SS and the Handschar.




Any good sources? (the link provided did not work)

It is rather strange that the Pope at one time could be part of one of the most evil political parties in history. Almosts sounds like one of those conspiracy books where the bad guys try to take power from within over a decades of planning.

On the other hand, having been part of that evil empire may give him extraordinary insight.

First of all, this is historically and factually incorrect - please, in this forum we stick to history, not misconceptions.

1) The new Pope, was Drafted into an AA Unit of the Hitler Jugend.

2) Drafted at that stage of the war, did not mean a polite invitation to serve one's country - refusal signified a rapid execution along with reprisals against one's family which could involve being sent to a concentration camp. How many of us could say we had the moral courage to risk that?

3) He at no time was part of the Nazi Party. At that time, many young men were forced into the Hitler Youth and all undertook some form of military training.

Finally, as the subject of the new Pope's past, is a theme I would prefer to avoid on this forum, I trust this will be the last post on his subject, I have no problem with the subject of the HY being raised or discussed, although the Pope is a subject wich could (no pun intended) which could rapidly become a minefield...Jim

I'll try that link again!

I've re-done the link to the BBC site and now it works, in the above posting.

Ok,

a few points considering collaboration and the like:

By many, especially in Eastern Europe, Bolshevism and Communism were seen as THE evils. For the capitalists as they feared for their way of life, and added to that the chaos which ensued in Russia (and 1918-1919 in Hungary). This went so far that Churchill was reluctant to invite Russia into an alliance, untill Hitler made the choice for him, and even then it took the stunning successes of the Germans and the spectacular collapse of the Red Army to win him over 100%. The West helt much the same view... and their power-politics game was actually instrumental in getting Hitler in a position to dominate the Successor States (the states craeted from the Habsburg lands)before the start of hostilities.

Another, general factor is that fascism was seen as a legitimate choice of government by many (including in the West), together with Communism and Capitalism/democracy. And due to some shrewd propaganda and the social economic problems in many countries, this illusion was only reinforced.

Add to that for Eastern Europe the fear for Russia and pan-Slavism, prevalent especially in Poland and Hungary. This fear and hatred was only reinforced (at least in Hungary) in the post-WW I settlements.

Anti-Semitism was quite wide-spread all over the world, though we in the West do not like to admit it. (But the German refugee ship is a perfect example). This was due to both economic factors and Social-Darwinistic ideas. In Eastern and Central Europe this anti-Semitism probably was more prevalent, due to social economic circumstances. Historically there the middle classes were formed by Germans and Jews, the local nationalities being the peasant masses. These later became part of the bureacracy, and naturally the industrialists. Also, these were the onlyones with time and money to become intellectuals, and hence become liberals or socialists/bolshevists. Many of the intellectuals and leaders of the brutal Bolshevik Revolution in Hungary (and in Eastern Europe in general) were therefor of Jewish decent. Hence it was very easy to say Bolsheviks = Jews. A similar story goes for big money and the capitalists, at least in Hungary. And again, in the economic hard times of 1919-1924 and 1929-1934 it became very easy to say evil capital = Jews.

Hence it became quite easy for racial anti-Semites (like Hitler or Gombos in Hungary) to hijack the social economic version of anti-Semitism.


Now as far as collaboration goes:

Fighting for the Germans. A good number of the Western volunteers were indeed anti-Semitic. However, the vast majority of them decided to fight against the evils of Bolshevism and the Russian menace. They saw that as being worse then fascism. Also, the Nazi regime in many of these countries was quite benign for quite a while. The Netherlands and Flanders were actually seen as brothers (closest thing to "pure" Germans) by the Nazi's. Only these (together with Danes, Swedes and Norwegians)could enter the (Waffen-)SS proper. In fact, the 5th Waffen SS division, Wiking, contained the Regiments Westland, containing Dutch and Flemish volunteers. Scandinavian volunteers were included in the 11th Waffen SS division. They joined in quite large numbers, and fought hard untill the end. Probably because many realized there was no way back. In fact, it seems that these were one of the very few non-German Waffen-SS units considered reliable and (very) good combat units.

The Eastern European units were mainly recruited based on their hatred for Russia, Bolshevism or other ethnic groups. In the later stages, many were drafted into the German Army (the Ost-battalionen). Generally their fighting quality and spirit was indeed low.

Why ended so many in the Waffen-SS ? The explanation is to be found in the battle between Himmler (and the Waffen-SS) for recruits vs the regular Army. Himmler secured the foreign volunteers/"volunteers" for the Waffen-SS. In fact, a number of foreign volunteer units originally being under the responsibilty of the army were transferred to the (Waffen-) SS. Not though that within the (Waffen-) SS a distinction was made between "arian" units and others. Which, IIRC was continued in for instance the uniforms.

Why did so many, predominantly Eastern Europeans collaborate with the Holocaust? My guess is partially because the Germans used the existing socio-economic anti-Semitism for that purpose. Also, the fact that, possibly, as long as the Jews were treated worse, the Germans would be comparatively mild to them. Money or food was an incentive. Mind you that some of the most notorious people in the German concentration and death-camps were not the SS-guards but the KaPo's, most often Jews themselves.guards but the

Last word:

Hitlerjugend membership was compulsory... and forsocial advancement so was pretty much membership of the Nazi party. The younger generation, mostly used later in the war had only known the Nazi regime. Even those in their mid-20's by the end of the war hardly knew better, as they were around 12 when Hitler came to power.

The younger generation was later (ab)used by the SS for recruits. In fact, the age of many of the NCO's (even early in the war) could and probably will have played an important role in the warcrimes perpetrated by Waffen-SS units.

And by the end of the war, even many Waffen-SS units had had enough, and still actd like human beings.

These are my $ 0.03

Harm

Mech Mechanic,I know this is a bit late but I have a photo of a shiekh in german uniform Turban the works, also i have photo's of a diorama by f.Verlinden showing a Indian in german uniform in the Western desert (not sure if that is historically correct).