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Non-Nazis who fought under the Swastika
007
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Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 01:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There were several nationalities who joined the Nazis supposedly for "higher" reasons. Examples are the French, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian & other Western European volunteers


Hola Steve, hold it right there!!!
Perhaps I understand you wrongly here but just to make clear: we did NEVER join the Nazi's!!
Perhaps a few did, but never, NEVER, we did 'join' them as a state, or as a nation.
Like French and Belgium we were occupied after a (short) war! For 4 long years we were terrorised and my familiy fought against the Nazi's in the resistance, so you could say there was a contstant war.

Some Dutch joined the Dutch Nationalist Party (NSB), but that was a vast minority. Also some volunteered in SS or other troops, (but so did Brittish and people all over the world).
But never we volunteered as a nation, like for instance Vichy France (not the occupied France, who had a simular occupation as Belgium and The Netherland (to all readers: please do not say Holland, that's just a part of it our little country )

That's my 2 cents!

Paul
andy007
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Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 04:48 PM UTC
This is a great thread I have really enjoyed reading it.

Quoted Text

One SS unit which wasn't mentioned was the Indian SS. Nor was Handschar (Muslim)...Jim just bet I spelt hat one wrong

On the topic of Indians "Changing" sides. I have a close Gurkha friend who fought in Burma from 1941 til he was wounded in 1944. He told me that many of the Indain POW's were visited by the leader of the Indian national party (Bose was his name I think) asking them to join the Japanese and fight against the "imperialistic' british rule and many did. Not because they wanted to get rid of the british but so they could get back to their units. During the battle many would quickly "surrender" to the Allies they were meant to be fighting. Of course their were some that joined the Japanese to fight the British. But from what I can gather they were in the minority.

On the note of foreign SS units, this has always interested me specially the British and American units. If anyone could direct me to any information online or books about the subject it would very much appreciated.
TIA
Henk
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Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 05:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Quote:
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There were several nationalities who joined the Nazis supposedly for "higher" reasons. Examples are the French, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian & other Western European volunteers

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Hola Steve, hold it right there!!!
Perhaps I understand you wrongly here but just to make clear: we did NEVER join the Nazi's!!


Hallo Paul,
with regards to the above quote, I believe he refers to the Nationality of the individual volunteers he mentions, not the Nations themselfs. I don't think there could ever be any doubt about the feelings and reactions of the Dutch to the occupation by the Germans, but there where some chapters which have left an unsavoury taste, such as the 'Englandspiel' where the Germans managed to infiltrate the, otherwise very effective, resistance with disastres consequences, or the dubious 'honour' of the Dutch SS volunteers who where regarded as the best and most fanatical foreign volunteers.
I read these threads with interest, but try not to get involved as I can sometimes get a bit carried away... Being Dutch does that to you I suppose.. .


History should be tought and remembered, not rewritten or denied..

Oh and with regards to Holland, as I was born in Den Haag, I can officialy call myself a 'Hollander' and state that I come from Holland.. .
Maar je hebt wel gelijk hoor, ik probeer ze dat hier in Engeland altijd uit te leggen, maar ja... :-) :-) :-)

Groeten
Henk
007
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Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 08:46 PM UTC
Being Dutch does that to you I suppose..
Henk, I suppose you are right :-)
I was not sure if it was mentioned that way, just wanted to point it out

I was born in Den Haag
Ah, greetings from out of the province than :-)

Paul
screamingeagle
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Posted: Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:01 AM UTC
Hi gents, I keep an open mind when it comes to this kind of subject matter. Being a very patriotic American, as I am, I still try to see things on the other side of the line.

When we use the word "fanatic" or "fanantical" to describe German soldiers ( and yes there were fanatical Wehrmacht Heer, Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine soldiers too ), I think anyone of us would be a bit " fanatical " if our homeland was invaded and our friends & family were killed by another countries invading military forces.

No matter if governments leaders are "right or wrong .... evil or good " I will do my best to keep an invading army from conquering my homeland and its citizens.
007
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Posted: Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:27 AM UTC
Euh, Ralph...

It were the Germans who invade and killed friends and family... not the other way arround!
That's also why they stated 'fanatic' amd 'fanatical' often. They killed and invaded because they choose to follow their leaders politics blindly, like also the Japanese back then and the Iraqi's today.

A non-nazi would not be fanatic, just followed his orders, I guess.
And when the time did come and Germany was invaded by the Allies, there was not so much 'fanatism' anymore. The most actually did want to end it asap...

An open mind is a good thing, but also keep with the facts please...

Paul
DutchBird
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Posted: Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:17 AM UTC
A few things here...

I forgot the site, but depending on the numbers used, in numbers, the Dutch provided the 2nd largest (just behind the Flemish) or by far the largest contingent of volunteers (between 22.000 and 55.000 men) from the west if not all non-Axis states. The vast majority who joined the Waffen-SS had some fascist leanings (but so had many all over the world) and the their biggest motivation was to fight Bolshevism.

It is one of the great paradoxes of WW II (perhaps even Dutch history in general). On the one hand the Dutch caused the Germans some major headaches and provided some of the most effective resistance movements, on the other hand it is the country where the largest percentage of Jews perished (at least in the West) and the most volunteers.

And the Dutch volunteers fought very hard, and were regarded and used by the Germans at times to form the backbone of their resistance (Kurland peninsula as part of "Wiking" is an example) and seen by the Russians as fearsome opponents. In fact, among the last men fighting in Berlin were Dutch and French Waffen-SS volunteers. I guess in a way it is that for them there was no way back, and they knew it.


Paul,

as far as Vichy France goes, I think you should modify your POV. Vichy France was originally devised/set-up under the guidance of Marshall Petain as being the best solution for saving as much of France (and its spirit) as possible. This was a massive miscalculation, as the Nazis and French collaborators rapidly infiltrated the administration. Vichy France itself was disbanded by the Germans in 1942 or 1943. In fact it considered itself neutral. And behaved as such.

As far as Dutch fighting goes... There have been some other instances in history where the Dutch fought hard, as long as they believed. They were the crack troops of Marlborough's army, some of the crack troops both for Napoleon and for Wellington at Waterloo (remember Quatre Bras) and again when Germany invaded in 1940 (in fact in numerous places Dutch resistance was far more then expected).
jimbrae
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Posted: Monday, June 20, 2005 - 07:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

When we use the word "fanatic" or "fanantical" to describe German soldiers ( and yes there were fanatical Wehrmacht Heer, Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine soldiers too ), I think anyone of us would be a bit " fanatical " if our homeland was invaded and our friends & family were killed by another countries invading military forces.


Looking at the resistance by the German Armed Forces in 44/45 to the Allied invasion, it is not entirely surprising... German propaganda, indicated that the allies would show them no mercy whatsoever. This factor, along with the use of the 'Flying Tribunals' also ensured that discipline was also maintained...

That said however, there are a number of contradictions... Resistance was never as fierce in the West against the Western Allies as it was in the East against the Soviets. As the rather lame joke of the day said:
Quoted Text

"The optimists are learning English, the pessimists, Russian"
- some quarter was expected from the Western Allies - from the Soviets, none whatsoever.. The promised 'resistance' to the Allies never took place either and the level of cooperation by local authorities to the Western Allies, was unprecendented...

In summary, resistance was strong, but never (apart from isolated cases) could be describe as fanatical. When you are between a rock and a hard place as were many units, their resistance was strong, but never as fanatical as might be suggested...

Regarding the (always thorny) subject of resistance by a civil population, the bravery of two of the smaller countries of Europe was extraordinary - Norway and the Netherlands In the latter case, anyone who finds themself in Amsterdam, the Museum Of Dutch Resistance is one of the most incredible museums I have ever visited - high on the list of anyone with a historical interest....Jim
screamingeagle
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Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 08:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Euh, Ralph...

It were the Germans who invade and killed friends and family... not the other way arround!
That's also why they stated 'fanatic' amd 'fanatical' often. They killed and invaded because they choose to follow their leaders politics blindly, like also the Japanese back then and the Iraqi's today.

A non-nazi would not be fanatic, just followed his orders, I guess.
And when the time did come and Germany was invaded by the Allies, there was not so much 'fanatism' anymore. The most actually did want to end it asap...

An open mind is a good thing, but also keep with the facts please...

Paul



Yeh, yeh, yeh ... Paul please don't tell me about the facts. The fact is that '"fanatical " literally means : ( motivated by excessive, irrational zeal ). Though I don't in any way think what Germany did was right, I'm simply saying that you do not have to be a Nazi to be fanatical, or a Waffen SS soldier for that matter.

If you don't think that there were "fanantical " Allied soldiers who marched into the ETO than maybe you should get the facts straight.

A non- Nazi can't be fanatical ... Are you serious? ! Anyone one person could be a fanatic, and there were plenty on both sides.
What about the Allied soldiers who took it upon themselves to gun down surrendering German & German POW's - Sounds a weeeeeeee' bit "F A N A T I C A L " to me ! ...................

Listen, I don't want to get into a flame- war here, I wouldn't have commented on this if I wasn't sure. My Uncles fought and died in WW2, so I sure as hell ain't supporting no Nazi, just stating the
F A C T S and most importantly the truth.

- ralph
007
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Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 10:25 AM UTC
Ola Ralph,

First: I did not want to offend you. Forgive me when my post was giving you that feeling.

Second: I think perhaps we both have a different meaning about 'fanatical', even if we both now what it means, the 'lugage' of the word differs.
Perhaps I'm taking 'fanatic' more 'heavier' than you do.
My English is not that good to make it a discussion about words, but I think there is a difference betweed 'fanatic' and 'driven'. So, let me get it clear out what I mean:

I state "fanatical" by WWII Germans more as well thought trough actions done with full knowledge and with full awareness of it, based on an (irrational)opinion or believe (or zeal).
I think that's why mostly Germans are stated 'fanatical' by quit a few most of the time as you allready noticed and pointed out.
And no, you don't have to be a Nazi to be 'fanatic'...
But looking it in the way mentioned above, the normal soldiers were not 'fanatic', or at least not THAT fanatic. The fanatical part is based on a believe or opinion and is allready there way before the fight begins. The most Wehrmacht members were just enlisted men, whatever they like it or not.

IMHO GI's gunning down POW's did mostly not do that in a fanatical way, but more in frustration or in anger in an emotional moment... They did not round up a few hundred Germans in a camp and gun them down systematical. It mostly occured during or just after the fights, when adrealine was still pumping.
You can say that they were perhaps 'fanatic' in that moment, I would say; just very pissed off...

At last: actually, the only fact that I was refering to was that Germany was the agressor. I did this only for pointing out that you can't compare soldiers defending their country 'fanatic' with soldiers who invading other countries simply for 'lebensraum' 'fanatic'...]

It seemed in your post (and I'm glad you pointed that out that this was not the case!!) like you defended SS and other units by stating that you too would be fanatic if someone invaded your country.
So the fact is: Germany was not invaded (or at least, not untill the end of the war)

And yes, offcourse I would be driven or ''strongly motivated'' to fight when some evil power decide to occupy The Netherlands (even if it is based on the The Hague Invasion Act signed by a certain president :-) )

That's all...

Now, let's have some !

Paul
blaster76
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Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 07:43 PM UTC
As you stated, the Germans were defending their country starting in late 1944. Some of the more fanatacial battles were Hurtigen forest and of course the battle of Berlin. But hey, what about Gaudalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Peleilu. Or the US defense of Wake Island and Bataan? There weren't any Nazi's/SS present there?
007
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Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 08:02 PM UTC
OK, I rest my case about the meaning of 'fanatical'.
I guess the load of the word differs for people.
Just wanted to give an answer on the earlier question why Germans (an Japanese) were often called 'fanatic' in forums and other nations soldiers not.

Snowhand
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Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 08:23 PM UTC
To me, fanatical or fanatic allways has a negative meaning. I don't know wheather that is lexicollogy correct, but that is how I experience the word.

Fanatical usually is replaced by loyal/ elite/ fearless/ brave and/ or foolish when used to describe allied soldiers somehow.

Richard
screamingeagle
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Posted: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 08:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ola Ralph,

First: I did not want to offend you. Forgive me when my post was giving you that feeling.

Second: I think perhaps we both have a different meaning about 'fanatical', even if we both now what it means, the 'lugage' of the word differs.
Perhaps I'm taking 'fanatic' more 'heavier' than you do.
My English is not that good to make it a discussion about words, but I think there is a difference betweed 'fanatic' and 'driven'. So, let me get it clear out what I mean:

I state "fanatical" by WWII Germans more as well thought trough actions done with full knowledge and with full awareness of it, based on an (irrational)opinion or believe (or zeal).
I think that's why mostly Germans are stated 'fanatical' by quit a few most of the time as you allready noticed and pointed out.
And no, you don't have to be a Nazi to be 'fanatic'...
But looking it in the way mentioned above, the normal soldiers were not 'fanatic', or at least not THAT fanatic. The fanatical part is based on a believe or opinion and is allready there way before the fight begins. The most Wehrmacht members were just enlisted men, whatever they like it or not.

IMHO GI's gunning down POW's did mostly not do that in a fanatical way, but more in frustration or in anger in an emotional moment... They did not round up a few hundred Germans in a camp and gun them down systematical. It mostly occured during or just after the fights, when adrealine was still pumping.
You can say that they were perhaps 'fanatic' in that moment, I would say; just very pissed off...

At last: actually, the only fact that I was refering to was that Germany was the agressor. I did this only for pointing out that you can't compare soldiers defending their country 'fanatic' with soldiers who invading other countries simply for 'lebensraum' 'fanatic'...]

It seemed in your post (and I'm glad you pointed that out that this was not the case!!) like you defended SS and other units by stating that you too would be fanatic if someone invaded your country.
So the fact is: Germany was not invaded (or at least, not untill the end of the war)

And yes, offcourse I would be driven or ''strongly motivated'' to fight when some evil power decide to occupy The Netherlands (even if it is based on the The Hague Invasion Act signed by a certain president :-) )

That's all...

Now, let's have some !

Paul


Hi Paul, no please, I was not offended. Your quote from above is very well spoken and yes I agree. And for what it's worth I think your English and topic discussion are excellent and smart.

The pure and simple point I was trying to make is that mankind puts a label on a select bunch and that is all well and good and for very good reason but lets not forget that labels have two sides and even the those who are righteous and "fight the good fight " have character defects.

Respects,
- ralph
007
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Posted: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 09:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The pure and simple point I was trying to make is that mankind puts a label on a select bunch and that is all well and good and for very good reason but lets not forget that labels have two sides and even the those who are righteous and "fight the good fight " have character defects.


Ralph, I totally agree with you in this.



Quoted Text

And for what it's worth I think your English and topic discussion are excellent and smart.
Thanks for your comment and compliment
The respect is mutual

Paul
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