i was thinking, do most armies still issue and use bayonets?
It seems to me that they arent seen too often nowadays.
As a member of the british armed forces i have recieved quite a lot of bayonet training, as it forms part of the core fighting skills of an infantry soldier.
if anyone thinks its an out dated weapon, try looking up the PWRR action in iraq,
when fighting Al Sadr's militia a 10 man section was pinned down by dozens of iraqis and ran out of ammunition. The section commander gave the order to fix bayonets, and the soldiers repulsed the militia with no casualties-inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy.
regards
joe
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Bayonets
greatbrit
Member Since: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 12:42 AM UTC
blaster76
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Posted: Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 08:16 AM UTC
I know the M-16 has a bayonet. I was active during the lae 70's but being a tanker, we didn't use them. I had a .45 and the crew had m-3 sub machineguns (aka grease gun). The bayonet was used mainly to stab c-rat cans. We had familiarization with them. Of course in Armor Officers basic we shot every infantry weapon.
peacekeeper
Member Since: May 07, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:48 AM UTC
We had them for the FN, and recieved the training for them, but except for parade use, the only time we really used them was prodding for mines on exercise.
95bravo
Member Since: November 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, April 18, 2005 - 06:59 AM UTC
I recall that in the 90s that the infantry units were rediscovering the use of bayonets and that they included it in their training. I'm not sure however, if they still do.
BSPRU
Member Since: March 13, 2002
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Posted: Monday, April 18, 2005 - 02:33 PM UTC
They also rediscovered the "Spirit of the Bayonet" in the early 80's. There are only two kinds of people! The quick or the dead. which one are you? Then in the 90's we used to zip clip the bayonets to our belts so we wouldn't lose them. I believe they were the M-9 (probis)
brian
brian
95bravo
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Posted: Monday, April 18, 2005 - 06:01 PM UTC
I'm the kind who was heartbroken when they replaced our 1911 Colts with those 9mm peashooters as standard MP sidearm.
we never let them get close enough with a knife.
we never let them get close enough with a knife.
USArmy2534
Member Since: January 28, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 01:17 AM UTC
The bayonet is still used for all the above reasons. The times it is used the most is bayonet training in basic, and probably in some MP duties (?). To my knowledge, the last American bayonet charge was in Vietnam.
Jeff
Jeff
95bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 01:42 AM UTC
In my 8 years as an MP, I never seen the use of a bayonet, not even riot control. I'm not saying that it couldn't have, but I don't know where they would have used them.
greatbrit
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 02:54 AM UTC
so basically they are still issued to US troops but not really used other than for cerimonial duties etc.
what about other armies, i was always under the impression Commonwealth armies operated along similar lines to the British army.
David, by FN do you mean the SLR?
regards
joe
what about other armies, i was always under the impression Commonwealth armies operated along similar lines to the British army.
David, by FN do you mean the SLR?
regards
joe
peacekeeper
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 06:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
David, by FN do you mean the SLR?
regards
joe
Joe
Yes...FNC1A1, same thing with a few minor differences (carrying handle, flash eliminator, change lever, body cover if i remember correctly). It and the SMGC1 I carried were both able to be fitted with a bayonet, but why you'd want a bayonet on an SMG I don't know. If they were that close there'd be more than enough rifles handy and available.
USArmy2534
Member Since: January 28, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 07:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The bayonet is still used for all the above reasons. The times it is used the most is bayonet training in basic, and probably in some MP duties (?). To my knowledge, the last American bayonet charge was in Vietnam.
Jeff
To clarify to all (and myself) I guess I should have said they wouldn't have been used in everyday MP duties, but possibly in-theather EPW guarding,
I also believe that the bayonet is still attached to M16/M4s and stuck in the ground with helmet on top (being in the ground, top is the rifle butt) as weel as dog tags around the rifle, with boots in front of the rifle as a symbol to a fallen soldier. I can't tell from images, as the bayonet would be obviously buried in the ground.
Jeff
Jeff
95bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 07:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
To clarify to all (and myself) I guess I should have said they wouldn't have been used in everyday MP duties, but possibly in-theather EPW guarding,
Sorry man, but still, nope.
Perhaps with the infantry but not the MPs.
USArmy2534
Member Since: January 28, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 08:00 AM UTC
I am a failure Thanks for setting me straight.
Jeff
95bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks for setting me straight.
Jeff
No, not a failure.
Sorry didn't mean to bruise an ego.
thathaway3
Member Since: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 08:29 AM UTC
Steve is correct as far as EPW doctrine is concerned. I commanded an EPW battalion. (Now I believe called an "Internee and Resettlement battalion but I've been out of the MPs since 1999). Our doctrine was NO weapons of any kind inside the wire for the compound control teams. The think was it meant nothing could be taken away from an unsuspecting soldier by a prisoner. The ready reaction force obviously did have weapons, as did the tower and perimeter guards.
I have no idea whether this sort of doctrine is still in use or whether local commanders have different policies.
Tom
I have no idea whether this sort of doctrine is still in use or whether local commanders have different policies.
Tom
Darktrooper
Member Since: November 05, 2004
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Posted: Friday, April 22, 2005 - 12:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve is correct as far as EPW doctrine is concerned. I commanded an EPW battalion. (Now I believe called an "Internee and Resettlement battalion but I've been out of the MPs since 1999). Our doctrine was NO weapons of any kind inside the wire for the compound control teams. The think was it meant nothing could be taken away from an unsuspecting soldier by a prisoner. The ready reaction force obviously did have weapons, as did the tower and perimeter guards.
I have no idea whether this sort of doctrine is still in use or whether local commanders have different policies.
Tom
In Iraq, our unit had it's 9mm's on them at all times, and when moving prisoners, one MP had an M16.
Now to clarify this, the Iraqi's were sh*t scared of us for many reasons; When my unit arrived we still had the woodland BDU's and not the DCU's so the Iraqi's thought we were Soviet (yes Soviet) Spetznatz because those are the only people they saw wearing green uniforms, Next The British MP's were allowed to kick the tar (whether they were or not is immaterial, the EPW's still came in Bruised) out of them, and the brits told the EPW's that we'd shoot them. Plus the enlisted EPW's were alot easier to deal with since many of them had the mentality, I'm caught, the war's over, and I'm gonna make my stay here very comfortable, they were still very orderly when it came to food too, I was told that when the chow truck would get there they would line up, open their own gate, and file out the truck. It's the officers and the Civilian Internee's that were the problem.
95bravo
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Posted: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 03:45 PM UTC
I'd forgotten that they changed the MOS designation to 31 Bravo....I like 95 Bravo better...it sings!
The Old Fart
The Old Fart
thathaway3
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 07:05 AM UTC
Isn't the 814th MP Company (Guard) a Reserve unit in the 300th MP Brigade? That sounds familiar. I thought we used to have a couple of Guard Companies as a part of the 300th and they used to drill in Rosemont, right adjacent to O'Hare.
When I retired, I thought that MP enlisted MOS was still in the 95 series, but it may have changed. I know when I branch transferred from Field Artillery to Military Police as an officer, my MOS went from 13E (similar to the enlisted which was also 13) to 31A, which was different from the enlisted. Never could figure that out and maybe they changed it. If they did, they went the wrong way. Should have changed the Officer to 95. :-)
Tom
When I retired, I thought that MP enlisted MOS was still in the 95 series, but it may have changed. I know when I branch transferred from Field Artillery to Military Police as an officer, my MOS went from 13E (similar to the enlisted which was also 13) to 31A, which was different from the enlisted. Never could figure that out and maybe they changed it. If they did, they went the wrong way. Should have changed the Officer to 95. :-)
Tom
Darktrooper
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 08:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Isn't the 814th MP Company (Guard) a Reserve unit in the 300th MP Brigade? That sounds familiar. I thought we used to have a couple of Guard Companies as a part of the 300th and they used to drill in Rosemont, right adjacent to O'Hare.
When I retired, I thought that MP enlisted MOS was still in the 95 series, but it may have changed. I know when I branch transferred from Field Artillery to Military Police as an officer, my MOS went from 13E (similar to the enlisted which was also 13) to 31A, which was different from the enlisted. Never could figure that out and maybe they changed it. If they did, they went the wrong way. Should have changed the Officer to 95. :-)
Tom
Yeah, the 814th and the 822nd moved from Rosemont in 1997, we're in Arlington Heights now.
Recently the Army Decided that "wouldn't it perk up the enlisted soldiers if we changed their MOS's to the same series number as the officers?" 31 series used to be Signal MOS's, but they were combined with the enlisted 25 series so all signal MOS's are now 25 series.
jRatz
Member Since: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:23 PM UTC
Two notes:
I believe, in the US Army, bayonets are only issued to combat arms, in particular infantry & engineer.
Yes,the MOS are all being aligned & it will be a grand event to sit on the hillside with a beer or two & watch. I had to do a study a couple years back of MOS (so we could match them up in combat simulations) -- Army, Navy, USAF, USN, ROK, a few others, and ran across the Army "plan".
The problem of course is that in a field Off are 1 & Enl are 2 & WO are 3 and they want to make them all a 2. Well there is a different fields that's an Off 2 & yet another that's a WO 2 and so they have to move them, but one of them needs to become a 1 and another a 3, but they are taken already waiting on number vacancies, so the shift is being done in stages. I think some folks can count on 2-3 changes in a 4-5 year period.
Robert S is alive & well in the basement of the P-gon ...
John
I believe, in the US Army, bayonets are only issued to combat arms, in particular infantry & engineer.
Yes,the MOS are all being aligned & it will be a grand event to sit on the hillside with a beer or two & watch. I had to do a study a couple years back of MOS (so we could match them up in combat simulations) -- Army, Navy, USAF, USN, ROK, a few others, and ran across the Army "plan".
The problem of course is that in a field Off are 1 & Enl are 2 & WO are 3 and they want to make them all a 2. Well there is a different fields that's an Off 2 & yet another that's a WO 2 and so they have to move them, but one of them needs to become a 1 and another a 3, but they are taken already waiting on number vacancies, so the shift is being done in stages. I think some folks can count on 2-3 changes in a 4-5 year period.
Robert S is alive & well in the basement of the P-gon ...
John
95bravo
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 06:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I believe, in the US Army, bayonets are only issued to combat arms, in particular infantry & engineer.
Funny you should mention combat arms, the latest I've heard is that DoA wants to move the MPs even further away from the LE mission and closer to the combat support role (Convoy escort, route recon, etc,). Even more so than what occured in the early 80s and is taking place currently. I didn't realize this until lately that the majority of the CONUS bases are now patroled by DoD officers. (man am I out of the loop)_
Makes me wonder how long it will be before the MOS of MP becomes obsolete and they draw their MPs from the infantry units again.
thathaway3
Member Since: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:03 AM UTC
If you were an MP on Active Duty, and not in the Reserve, that might explain it. I know that virtually all of the MP units which are EPW, to include the EPW Battalions as well as the Guard and Escort Guard Companies were located in the Reserve Components and not on AD. Additionally I believe that the vast majority of the Combat Support MP Companies (organized very much like a light infantry company with Hummvees and reduced organic fire support) were also in the Reserve Component. The mission and units were always there, but since the requirement for them in the Cold War didn't exist on the AC side the force structure was based on that.
The need for MPs has gotten so large that I know that entire units (specifically some Guard FA units) have been sent as a group to Leonard Wood for re-class.
Tom
The need for MPs has gotten so large that I know that entire units (specifically some Guard FA units) have been sent as a group to Leonard Wood for re-class.
Tom
95bravo
Member Since: November 18, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:27 AM UTC
Interesting,
I was on the active side as an MP. When the NG and Reserves would come to Ft.Polk for their summer training they would put them in with us as a ride along on our shifts. Ditto if we had an FTX running. In never crossed my mind then..or now that their missions were set up like that. I've always assumed that they were set up for both tasks as we were. Field and LE.
Man ....show's you how much I know/knew about my own MOS!
Reclass me and send me to cook school
I knew about the FA units and was under the impression as you said, that MPs became a critcal MOS thus the need for the reclassification. As a side note, those who went to USAMPS who enlisted as MPs I learned were really annoyed by that. (to put it nicely)
I was on the active side as an MP. When the NG and Reserves would come to Ft.Polk for their summer training they would put them in with us as a ride along on our shifts. Ditto if we had an FTX running. In never crossed my mind then..or now that their missions were set up like that. I've always assumed that they were set up for both tasks as we were. Field and LE.
Man ....show's you how much I know/knew about my own MOS!
Reclass me and send me to cook school
I knew about the FA units and was under the impression as you said, that MPs became a critcal MOS thus the need for the reclassification. As a side note, those who went to USAMPS who enlisted as MPs I learned were really annoyed by that. (to put it nicely)
USArmy2534
Member Since: January 28, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Reclass me and send me to cook school
Careful what you wish for, especially in the Army. Remember we have regular brass here
Jeff
Darktrooper
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Posted: Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 08:10 AM UTC
When the 814th was activated back in 2001, they went to fort hood, and replaced a good portion of the AD MP's for post patrol and security because they went overseas.
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