The 1 Can Para was not decimated at Arnhem. Even if the 1 Can Parawas decimated at Arnhem they never had to wait long for battled hardend vets of other units since the D-Day landing they had created a name for them selfs because of their ruthlessness in battle and their valor. On D-Day a medic who was in the 1 Can Para won the Victoria Cross for valor.
The 1 Can Para was always full in their ranks with new recruits.

Yeah, yes, si, oui, and, ultimately, if we think about the next years of politics turmoil of the so-called Cold war.....Even yawhol !
Why ?....Because you WON ! That' s the best reason I know...!
' ve a nice day...!

Obviously, you are sensitive on this topic. I am sure they were a unit of tough cookies. However. Valor has nothing to do with the practicality of the idea. So how about addressing the feasibility questions I posed.

All in this discussion:
I believe there may be some confusion as to the participation in MARKET-GARDEN of a Canadian Para Regt . I have no references showing the Canadians in the order of battle for the 1st Airborne Army. There was the 1st Polish Airborne Brigade that was dropped as reinforcements to 1st British Airborne Division (which contained no Canadian units), it took heavy casualities.

The following is in no way meant to disparage the Canadian Airborne Regiment or the 101st Airborne Division or infantrymen (though they are easy targets for abuse)

An issue reference the Canadian airborne regiment rescuing the 101st at Bastogne: First, who would send a dismounted, light infantry force through two corps worth of German armor and infantry to rescue another mostly dismounted unit.? It would never have survived the movement cross country . The northern side of the Bulge was the Germans strongest. Second, if they were airdropped into Bastogne it would have been another regiment to feed, arm, etc. (The weather did not clear sufficiently for airdrops till 23/24 DEC) As DJ stated they were not tactically supportable by an already overstressed supply system inside Bastogne. To me it sounds like another Montgomery blast that the British Army won the Ardennes battle. Patton's 3rd Army was used because they were available, ready and closest to Bastogne. Patton already had a contingency plan sitting on the shelf (there being no personal computers in 1944 ) and was able to rapidly redirect two full corps to head north into the weakest part of the German penetration. (His Lorraine Campaign had bogged down, literallly due to wet weather, so he could afford to switch the direction of his attack ---audacity, audacity, always audacity---) On top of that the 3rd Army had the strength to then hold open the road so that supplies could enter and casualities could be evacuated, something a single regiment (regardless of whose army) could never do. Bastogne was not completely cutoff until night of 19 DEC and was relieved on 26 DEC.

There was also a belief among many under educated (military history wise) members of the U.S. airborne community that the 82nd & 101st ABN DIVs saved the Battle of the Bulge and that the tankers, etc, were losing the battle. There was a letter to the editor from a lieutenant in the 82nd Airborne in "Infantry" magazine (back in late 70s, early 80's) that declared that the airborne divisions had to save the 9th & 10th Armored Divisions in the battle. He obviously never expected the frontal attack he ended up receiving in the next months issue, from both the armor and infantry community.

The biggest myth of the battle for Bastogne is: "The 101st (don't kill me now, I served in the 101st from 1992-1995) single-handily defeated the massed German onslaught (of course the 101st makes no efforts to dissaude anyone of that myth ). The facts are quite different, if you look at the order of battle inside the pocket:

101st Airborne Division (+) (at nearly full strength after recovery from MARKET-GARDEN)
.....501st Para Regt
.....502nd Para Regt
.....327th Glider Inf Regt (3rd Battalion was actually the 1st BN, 401st Glider Infantry)
.....321st Glider FA BN (75mm Pack How)
.....907th Glider FA BN (105mm Pack How, I believe)
.....377th Para FA BN (75mm Pack How)
.....463rd Para FA BN (75mm Pack How)
.....81st ABN AAA BN (Primarily trailer-mounted quad-50s)
.....326th ABN ENGR BN
CCB, 10th Armor DIV (COL Roberts later gathered all non-arty stragglers into Team SNAFU)
.....3rd Tank BN (- company C)
.....Co C, 21st Tank BN
.....54th Armd INF BN (- A & C Cos)
.....20th Armd INF BN (-Co C)
......Co C, 609th TD BN
......Co C, 55th Armd Engr BN
......420th Armd FA BN (105mm, M7 Priests)
......Batt B, 796th AAA BN (truck mounted quad-50s & truck-mounted 37mm/50 cal combo mounts) - highly effective against maased dismounted infantry!!!!!!
......Trp D, 90th Recon Sqdn
705th TD BN (36 M10 TDs)
755th FA BN (155mm)
Co C, 9th Armd Engrs
969th FA BN (155mm)
CCR, 9th Armd DIV (Probably 40 serviceable tanks, M4 Sherman & M5 Suart between CCR/9th & CCB/10th) (Sorry I do not have CCRs OB)

Within the Bastogne pocket were over 100 pieces of field artillery, everyone, except the Priests (which were kept mobile) were dug in with 360-degree fields of fire. The mobile AAA-units were used against dismounted attacks by the 326th Volksgrenadiers & others.

The basic anti-armor defense was to have the three airborne/glider regimants and TF SNAFU dig-in an strip away the infantry support. The German armor would continue inside the perimeter where the TDs and tanks would fire from positions on teh backside of the wooded areas and small villages into the rear of the panzer formations, while the dug-in artillery provided anti-support from their holes (a direct 105mm or 155mm arty shell, even HE could do great damage to a 1944 Panter or Mk IV). The Armor and infantry teams would then clean-up stragglers and restore the perimeter. It worked well, the biggest problem being the supply of ammunition and fuel.

Sorry for the diatribe, but the Ardennes Campaign is my favorite ETO battle

This is just what I know from listening to interviews of veterans of the Canadian airborne unit in question. The Canadians were, indeed, not decimated at Arnhem because they never got there. They were to be sent in, but when things got bad, the mission was cancelled.

These soldiers thought that they could have helped the 101st out at Bastogne because they were already positioned near Bastogne. That's the whole point. They were there and felt they could have helped, but with Patton coming, the Americans didn't want them. Whether it's feasible that they could have been a big help is another concern, but I don't have any other information than what I heard on TV from these guys. Still, I would trust 80 year old veterans to know the two basic facts mentioned above (where they were during Market Garden and where they were during The Bulge).

Nic

This is kinda getting out of hand. The last thing in the world I wish to do is incite a border war over a completely unfeasible tactic move. If someone believe there was not a Canadian airnborne presence in Arnhem --Amen, I say. However. Regardless of what some 80 year old man believes he could have done, the 101st (of which I was a member from 1970-1971), needed assistance from American units for the logistical reasons I stated earlier Crossing rear boundaries is a nightmare. Doing it under adverse weather and tactical situations makes you hair stand on end. No American commander would have agreed to doing it.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it..

I, as you see am Canadian but I will try to be as impartial as possible.
First, about any Canadians at Arnhem, I believe there were some Canadian Engineers at Arnhem but they were attached to a British "parent" division .

Now, about the U.S.'s policy on Germany first, it is difficult to say how correct the policy was.
It was essential for the Allies to make a contribution to the war in Europe not only to defeat Hitler (which the Soviets may have been able to do alone) but to not allow the Russians to occupy all of Europe. If the Allies had have waited, thismost certainly would have happened.
The threat of an invasion alone was enough to keep a number of divisions in France, helping the Russians. Even if the divisions were not available in England because they were fighting in the Pacific, Fortitude (the Allies deception "tool") would have convinced the German High Command so.
It is feasible to say then that the War would have been won if the Allies attacked Japan first.
Therefore the main reason for "Germany First" was the already underlying cold war mentality of distrust of the Russians and the resulting need to occupy Europe.
I hope that you will read this post with an open mind and tell me what you think.
Andrew

I totally agree with the Europe first stategy and do believe that for the most part it was successful. But lets not forget that the allies wern't sitting on their hands waiting for huge buildups like they did in Europe. Burmese, Indian, British, gurka, chinese US and assorted other allied units were tying up Japensese manpower in Burma/china/indian theater through 42-44. Sometimes it is a forgotten part of the war, not as glamorous as the tank battles at kursk/landings in normandy or rasing the Flag at Iwo Jima.

I'm not quite sure what got out of hand here. There were a few questions and we established some facts to answer them. I don't think anyone is saying that the Canadians would have been able to "save" Bastogne alone. I agree, it seems like an impossible task, despite the confidence shown by the veterans. They, naturally, would have wanted to help their comrades in arms, especially since they were fellow airborne troops, when they were so close to the fighting.

Nic

I agree to Folgore said that they wouldn't have saved them but they wanted to help out some of their old freinds as much as possible. If they could have gotten to Bastone then I think that they would have done as much as possible even if they were ordered to attack then I think that they would have no questions asked

DJ -

This is not a border war - just a friendly tussle between cousins -

Jeff--we need to ask our cousins to the North to look up the order of battle for the British 1st Airborne Division and get back to us on their participation in the Arnhen operation.
DJ

DJ -- I have done some research and have found that the Canadian 1st Parachute Bn remained in England from September 7 1944 until Christmas when they were sent to the Ardennes. They, like the veterans of that unit said, did not take part in Operation Market Garden. The battalion's push forward took them through the towns of Aye, Marche, Roy and Bande. If anyone knows where these places are, we would be able to fins out how close they really were to Bastogne.

If your main question was whether or not they were in Arnhem, I hope that answers it.

I'll be gone for the weekend, but I look forward to see what info others can dig up.

Nic

All - I researched this relpy and typed as I researched. I found data later theat either supported or confused what I found first - so I have made notes in parenthesis in earlier entries concerning later findings. Everyone throughly confused?

Folgore -

I am sitting here (on my lunch break) looking at the maps from the Official US Army History of the Ardennes battle, so far, Marche is located about 23 miles/37kms west-northwest of Bastogne, straight line distance, the other towns I have not located yet. Arlon, where 3rd US Army started there drive is the same distance due south of Bastogne, and a tad bit closer by road than from Marche. The town of Roy is located about 5 KM southeast of Marche, (note - there are multiple towns of Roy in Belgian - the one seen by the British XXX Corps is Roy de Notre Dame near the Meuse River) however thru at least 23 DEC this was behind fhe lines of the 2nd, 9th & 116th Pz Divisions. I could not find Aye or Bande (see reference below), nor did I find mention of the Canadian Parachute Battalion (again see further down) . There were a number of Canadian Forestry companies located in VIII Corps sector at start of battle. I believe they were working with US engineer units.

In "A Time for Trumpets", by Charles MacDonald, there is mention of two airborne battalions from the British 6th Airborne Division, as part of XXX Corps, "crossed east of the Meuse River to stop the spearhead of the German advance", from Field Marshall Montgomery's words.

In "Battle, The Story of The Bulge", by John Toland, mention is made of the village of Bande: "Latter that day (Jan 11, 1945) another British unit seized the town of Bande, scene of the Christmas Eve massacre."

Based on what I could find in six different references, (one official US Army history, two books from American view point, two books from German viewpoint and one produced by a British author) the only mention of non-US or German paratroopers were the two battalions from the 6th Airborne, part of XXX Corps. XXX Corps was not committed till after 20 DEC and they were west of the Meuse till about 23 DEC (with only a few reconnaissance units east of the Meuse). XXX Corps units never came close to Bastogne.

My conclusions, based on a scientifically insignificant list of sources, is that the 6th Airborne Division or members of the division (included the Canadians), wanted to come to the aid of the 101st in Bastogne. This is a most admirable act. But, the evidence does not support that the force would have been of much use:

- Allied aircraft could not fly till 23-24 DEC, when first airdrops, flying from England, were made. If the 6th Airborne was with XXX Corps, then they would not have any airlift.
- XXX Corps did not enter the fray till two days before Bastogne was relieved and then they were over 50 miles west of Bastogne fighting elements of the 2nd Panzer Division.
- By the time XXX Corps elements were within 20 miles it was weeks after Bastogne was relieved.
- The possibility of dropping elements of the 6th Airborne into Bastogne has already been discussed and would have only packed more troops into a too small perimeter without sufficient supplies and probably heavy casualities. The small number of C-47s providing the air drops on 23-24 DEC suffered some significant losses form German AAA.

Without any Canadian sources or references from the Canadian view, I think the case is closed for now. This by no way diminishes the Canadian airborne battalion's contribution to the war - far from it. The 6th Airborne Division, to which I believe the Canadians were attached, landed at Normandy, held teh left flank of the beach head till properly relieved, responded in horrendous weather to support he US Army in the Ardennes and jumped across the Rhine at Wesel. A good year's work by any standard.

Jeff Leiby